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Author Topic: Ongoing Knee Pains  (Read 591 times)

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Offline John_Chambers

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Ongoing Knee Pains
« on: September 13, 2021, 08:18:55 PM »
My knee pain started about 5 years ago when I was 35 after doing some squats and going up a 4 stories staircase. I have always had knees that stick out a lot and very thin legs.

After the initial injury the doctor said that they should get better within a few weeks but they took around 6 months to heal. During that time they hurt a lot if I tried to go up or down stairs or tried to run.

Even now that I am 40 they still sometimes ache at the end of the day, the pain comes from behind the knee caps on both legs. If I try to run or go up a lot of stairs, it feels good at first, like I'm using a muscle that hasn't been used for a while but then the next day they feel very bad and I'll struggle on them for a week or so, they don't feel like they would give way but a long pain and pains, especially on stairs. Swimming makes them feel a lot better generally, but I don't get that many opportunity's to go swimming. Some stretches I do cause them more pain, especially if I have my back to the wall and bend my legs and try to support my body, so I stop.

I would very much like to be able jog or run with my kids when we are playing games. Is there any advice on stretches or something which might be beneficial?

I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks

John, 40

Offline vickster

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 09:47:55 PM »
Have you seen a healthcare professional, other than the GP years ago? And you say your legs are very thin, you might be able to work on the muscles but you need to build up gently. Not straight into loads of body weight squats, especially not without your form being closely monitored. Get professional advice. Try to make time for the swimming if that’s good
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 08:51:34 PM by vickster »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2021, 10:41:46 PM »
My knee pain started about 5 years ago when I was 35 after doing some squats and going up a 4 stories staircase. I have always had knees that stick out a lot and very thin legs.

After the initial injury the doctor said that they should get better within a few weeks but they took around 6 months to heal. During that time they hurt a lot if I tried to go up or down stairs or tried to run.

Even now that I am 40 they still sometimes ache at the end of the day, the pain comes from behind the knee caps on both legs. If I try to run or go up a lot of stairs, it feels good at first, like I'm using a muscle that hasn't been used for a while but then the next day they feel very bad and I'll struggle on them for a week or so, they don't feel like they would give way but a long pain and pains, especially on stairs. Swimming makes them feel a lot better generally, but I don't get that many opportunity's to go swimming. Some stretches I do cause them more pain, especially if I have my back to the wall and bend my legs and try to support my body, so I stop.

I would very much like to be able jog or run with my kids when we are playing games. Is there any advice on stretches or something which might be beneficial?

I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks

John, 40

Describe the pain.  Burning? Or a general ache?  Or a sharp catching pain behind the kneecap with certain movements?

Could be patella chondromalacia (wear of the cartilage on the back of the kneecap).  This give the sharper catching pain with certain movements, esp stairs.
Could be synovial inflammation (that is more a constant burning/aching).

I've had both, and stretching was not the answer for either really, though it did make me feel a bit better sometimes.

Both can be improved dramatically, but it takes extreme patience and careful exercises (improving the supporting muscles in the hips/glutes/core, gentle walking), maybe a course of anti-inflammatories.  I'm also forming the view that taking collagen powder daily has helped my knees and other sore joints a lot.
L Medial menisectomy 2012
PFPS both knees 2012-2017
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014 (I think this was crap)
2017 - 90+% cured via Dr Dye's research
2018 - MTB crash, busted collarbone & ribs - easy compared to knees!
2021 - ride 3x/week, swim 2x/week, gym 2x/week, short runs 2x/week, back to short races

Offline John_Chambers

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 06:06:31 PM »
Hi

It feels like both a sharper catching pain with certain movements, esp stairs with a dull aching as well.


Offline vickster

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 06:19:31 PM »
Sounds like maybe your kneecaps aren’t tracking smoothly and/or there’s some wear to the cartilage on the back of the kneecaps. See a physio, you can either go private (probably around £60 for an assessment) or ask your GP for an NHS referral (although it could be a long wait and might be virtual rather than face to face due to waiting lists and Covid)

You might find some useful info here
https://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEnotes/primers/patella
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 06:23:49 PM by vickster »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 10:03:41 PM »
Hi

It feels like both a sharper catching pain with certain movements, esp stairs with a dull aching as well.

I agree with Vickster, sounds like damage to cartilage on the back of the kneecaps (= patella chondromalacia).

I started getting that sort of pain as a teenager (like you, skinny legs, prominent kneecaps, and I smashed them about when young playing rugby & doing other stupid things).  But I was able to do triathlon on them in later life despite regular flares.

However, I'm not convinced about the whole kneecap tracking issue.  I think physios over-diagnose that.  And when they do, they always try to correct the tracking with taping the kneecaps into better alignment and exercises to strengthen the VMO muscle to pull the kneecap back towards the inside.  For me, this never worked.  It was not my quads/VMOs that were the problem, and one expert actually videoed my knees jumping off a box and concluded my tracking was pretty good (despite my regular physio initially being fixated on poor tracking).

Eventually, I found that strengthening hips/glutes/core was the answer to take the force off my knees.  And this took 1-2 years of doing exercises like sissy squats, deadlifts, banded crab walks, kettlebell swings, side planks, half supermans about 2x per week (3 sets of each, 10-15 reps) to get real gains.

I think my chondromalacia was the start of my dual knee meltdown that led to chronic synovial inflammation, but now I have both those things under control, though it has taken about 8-9 years.

L Medial menisectomy 2012
PFPS both knees 2012-2017
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014 (I think this was crap)
2017 - 90+% cured via Dr Dye's research
2018 - MTB crash, busted collarbone & ribs - easy compared to knees!
2021 - ride 3x/week, swim 2x/week, gym 2x/week, short runs 2x/week, back to short races

Offline kneegeek2020

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2021, 04:21:08 PM »
Bow leggedness is also know as genus varum.  This places extra stress on the medial (middle aspect of the knees).  All knee pain can be reduced by building the muscle.  To reduce medial pain- do some exercises the strengthen the medial aspect of the knee.  Stretching is probably a bad idea.  Strengthen the medial muscle- and it pulls the leg into better alignment.

Get a pillow- place between knees- and do 3 sets of 12.  Do this every other day.  A quality PT should be able to say the same thing.  Some are knowledgeable, some aren't.  I spent 3 years living w/o a quad- so I know a thing or two about getting it back- and the frustration involved w/ current modalities.

But yes- if a bow leggedness is contributing to pain- strengthen the medial muscles.  As the poster mentioned- stretching has caused pain.  Pain is a message to not do something.  So stretching is probably a bad idea.

Offline kneegeek2020

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2021, 06:24:54 PM »
Reverse squats are the safer version (i.e.-step backward).  Wall squats still place more stress on the frontal knee joint.  Either way- squats are a terrible way to build quad strength.

Pain-->inhibition of quad--->zero growth

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2021, 09:56:11 PM »
It's not clear to me he is actually bow legged?  I took 'knees that stick out a lot' to mean knobbly knees?  That's what I have.
L Medial menisectomy 2012
PFPS both knees 2012-2017
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014 (I think this was crap)
2017 - 90+% cured via Dr Dye's research
2018 - MTB crash, busted collarbone & ribs - easy compared to knees!
2021 - ride 3x/week, swim 2x/week, gym 2x/week, short runs 2x/week, back to short races

Offline vickster

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Re: Ongoing Knee Pains
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2021, 10:51:25 PM »
Could be, hard to know.
Photos would be useful plus more details about management, healthcare professionals seen, exercises tried to date etc :)
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone