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Author Topic: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2  (Read 248 times)

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Offline higgs

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debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« on: June 21, 2021, 04:44:05 PM »
Hi everyone,
I was hoping I wouldn't have to come here again years later, but I am...
For context, my first post in 2018:
https://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=74551.msg681031#msg681031

It's now been sopme 10 years with this devastating knee pain. I am now 37.

Long story short from the original post:
Couple years from the initial sympthoms I did my first MRI in London which showed I had a meninscus tear. I fixed it with surgery.
Pain remained...so it wasn't from the tear. (at least I fixed a tear...)
That was the first real devastation.

Then I quit searching for a cure, decided to pursue my dreams anyways, got stuck on top of mountains with my knee giving me inbelieavable pain, having to literally drag myself down these mountains using sticks so my leg didn't touch the ground.

Then I decided to come to the forum here in 2018 in hopes of a miracle person that can at least tell me, you have problem X.
Some suggested on that original post, that I visit some great knee specialists in Wimbledon (you can find them, I don't want to name them because I want to be imparcial to their work)
It was so above my pay grade I couldn't believe it.....but...I paid.
I went there three times. The touched my knee in all sorts of ways, saw my old MRI, took a new MRI...
The result was phone call to tell me that there is only two options
A) It's all in your head. We seen it before.
B) We need to get inside your knee for 5k and figure it out in real time.

This was devastating moment number two.

So, I still don't know what problem I have...so I can even fix it. No one can tell me so far.
I am fit, I practice calisthenics, skateboard, run (15mins max), I do climbing to a 6c level and gym.
Nothing makes my knee hurt but running. I am super careful with posture when running, I have an general understanding of the body mechanics.
But 15 minutes into any run or hike, the lateral side of my knee...starts this accute pain and the futher I go the more it increases until I have to stop. And when I stop, I can not bend my leg or put lateral force (can't lift my leg sideways in mid air, gravity is intolerable)...this can persist for 24 to 48h. Past that time, I am brand new again.
All this, without swelling or bruising, ever.

If anyone wants to try help me, please do!

Only thing I have not tried, is building tons of muscle around my knees. might be a good idea?!

If some one can help in anyway, or if I can find someone with the same problem so I can at least discuss, that would be already great.
I don't want to quit!

Thank you







« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 04:46:27 PM by higgs, Reason: posted prematurely »

Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 04:57:18 PM »
Which meniscus was ‘fixed’? Lateral or medial? How was it fixed? Stitched back together or tissue trimmed away? Did the MRI show any wear of cartilage or bone? Degenerate meniscus (the tissue starts to deteriorate from around 30), small tears can be easily missed on MRI which could be why they suggested arthroscopy?

Have you had an x Ray to check alignment and joint space?
Have you seen a sports physiotherapist at all? Had everything checked from hips to feet? Or only surgeons?
If it only hurts while running (on roads or treadmill), maybe don’t run as it puts lots of impact through the knee especially if things are worn, imbalanced or poorly aligned. Get your cardio on the bike, rower, swimming instead?

Building loads of muscle isn’t necessarily the way to go, but firing, building and stretching the right muscles in the right way.
Have you tried yoga?
Have you had your gait and feet checked to be sure you have the right trainers for your foot shape and gait?

Good luck :)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 05:13:17 PM by vickster »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 05:26:20 PM »
Hi Vickster,
Thank you for your quick reply!
All those quesitons are quite daunting frankly, haha. You always expect things in life to be black and white but I am coming to the conclusion that my problem won't go the "yes...that's IT band" or "Yes, that's obvisouly the tendon."
Years are passing and I start losing the details about the past but:
Which meniscus was ‘fixed’? Lateral
How was it fixed? trimmed away
Did the MRI show any wear of cartilage or bone? when the answer to that from a top London knee specialist and his wife is "It might be all in your head", I guess it didn't show any of that.
Have you seen a sports physiotherapist at all? yes, he did find something interesting, my right ankle has quite a bit less squatting mobility compared to left side. (right is the damaged knee)
I can pistol squat on my left, but on the right I can't even sit on the single leg. I fall backward cause the ankle won't bend enough of me to sit over it. The cranked and popped it a few times when did immeadiatly loosen the movement (temporarily).
maybe don’t run I bought a house purposely in front of the woods so I can hike and run in...Imagine! I travel the world hiking hills a montains and deserts. It's just not something I should stop without hesitation. it's me.

Building loads of muscle isn’t necessarily the way to go, but firing, building and stretching the right muscles in the right way.
Ok, this is my best bet, from a motivation standpoint
Have you tried yoga?
yes, but I quit. I am not very flexible, and I am very explosive. Such activities are very discouraging.
Have you had your gait and feet checked to be sure you have the right trainers for your foot shape and gait?
I stopped using nike Airmax with bubbles and stuff as I feel the hindered my knee. But no, never actively tested my gait and etc.

Thank you! even discussing this gives me some relief haha.


Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 05:43:01 PM »
Sounds like there could be a few things to address but it’s going to take time, patience and money. I’d go back to the physio. Get the MRI disc and report, and see what it says. It should have been thoroughly reported. There’ll not be anything at all as the radiologists always report the minutiae! A lateral me sectomu a number of years ago has possibly led to some arthritis, it’s damage to the bone beneath the cartilage which can lead to that burning. Even mild danage can hurt when you put impact and weight through it when you run.

You’ll also probably have to do the little things over a long period of time unfortunately as boring as they are.

Definitely get proper shoes for walking and running.

I have very inflexible ankles with tight calves which affect all my leg muscles and knees greatly. Get a physio to help you work on the anatomy. You need to address the flexibility very patiently as well, not necessarily build strength until that’s sorted a bit. 

Dull huh!

I wouldn’t have the scope (and that clinic is expensive). Surgeons like big obvious things they can fix!

Spend the money on physio, gait analysis, walking and running shoes, perhaps custom orthotics if needed etc. Get the foam roller out and find a good sports massage therapist esp. if things are too painful to roll effectively   Also, start working out in a pool if you can :) if there is arthritis, something like a hyaluronic acid or PRP injection might help, but I’d spend 6-12 months on physio and conditioning first as boring as it is!
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 05:58:29 PM by vickster »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2021, 05:58:49 PM »
When you said "burning" I knew right away you know what I am talking about here.
I didn't even come close yet to talking to some who can relate to this pain.
It's exactly that, burning on a very defined location on the side boney area of the knee.
Professionals have tried to trigger it by hand, but they can't in any way. Only thing that does it, is impact.
It doesn't spread away from the area, it's right there on that sort of 4cm perimeter. And once there, leg refuses to bend cause it's just too painful. If I make zero moment lying down, it's almost gone, but if I twitch it goes to 100%.

All very defined and contained, none of that "up and and down the leg" things I read online. It's so specific, you;re actually the only person getting  close to definiting what I feel by text.

However, I am not sure I am lying to myself here...I have used tight knee braces in the past which seem to have delayed the pain from quite some time. But it's only a matter of time.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 06:05:37 PM by higgs, Reason: typo »

Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 06:19:06 PM »
It sounds like a focal cartilage defect with damage to the bone beneath (I have similar but I know there’s a large hole in the cartilage there, it’s very clear on MRI and when prodded, caused by an accident around 12 years ago). Unfortunately, I now have plenty of wear throughout the knee, including the same on the inside these days.

If in your case if it’s not clear on MRi, perhaps it’s actually a nerve issue?
Definitely get the MRI info. There are functional unloader braces if you do have arthritic bone that needs unloading, an X-ray would show a loss of joint space though
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 06:22:19 PM »
When you guys speak of "proper shoes"...are you talking of like Salomon or La Sportiva trail shoes with lot's of under cushion?
These are expensive, not sure if this is what you call proper shoes. But it makes sense considering impact is my issue, that added cushion should help?

Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 06:34:24 PM »
Go to a running shoe shop, get a gait analysis and see what they recommend for your feet and your issue.
Whereabouts are you based?  There’s bound to be somewhere decent with the machinery in London for example…

https://www.timeout.com/london/sports-fitness/londons-best-running-shops

They’ll be less expensive than potentially unnecessary surgery, and not just the financial cost
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 06:36:02 PM by vickster »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2021, 06:59:35 PM »
I am in south east london! will check on that and start there. thank you!

Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 07:06:19 PM »
Several in the City, easy access from London Bridge. Obviously due to Covid, check websites for opening times, whether appointments needed etc
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 10:28:37 AM »
I just continued studing the shoes situation yesterday, and looking at some Adidas I have, I have definetely this:



Which makes sense with the pain outside the knee.

Learning little things here!

Offline vickster

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 10:52:56 AM »
Don’t make assumptions about your gait. Get it professionally assessed before spending on expensive shoes. You may also need orthotic inner soles depending on your arch/foot shape which they should advise on
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09 (lat meniscus, lat condyle defect)
LK scopes 8/2/10 & 16/12/10
RK scope 5/2/15 (menisectomy, Hoffa’s fat pad trim)
LK scope 10.1.19 medial meniscectomy, trochlea MFX
LK scope 19.4.21 MFX to both condyles & trochlea, patella cartilage shaved, viscoseal, depo-medrone

Offline higgs

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Re: debilitating lateral knee pain - part 2
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 11:03:49 AM »
yes sure, I am going there saturday to Asics. Just learning more meanwhile.















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