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Author Topic: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?  (Read 7084 times)

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Offline exrunner1

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 09:21:17 PM »
exrunner1:

Thanks, I'm hoping it goes well too. I guess I could have a separate page, but since this is the cultured cell thread and I'm apparently the only one here who has actually tried it, I think it's appropriate to share my experience here. If anybody else has tried cultured cells they're welcome to share their experience as well! I know they're out there, just not on this little corner of the internet.

I'm not sure if cells injected into the back impact other body parts. If they did somehow migrate out (which is possible but seems unlikely) I don't think they would be harmful. Regenexx tracks their patients in a registry and has published safety data, so if harmful effects were occurring I think that would have come to light by now (after 13 years doing these procedures). When I was in Cayman my next door neighbor at the hotel was also a patient and was getting some discs in his back injected. He was in A LOT of pain afterwards, my recovery was a cake-walk in comparison. I didn't have any discs injected, just muscles, ligaments, facet joints and epidurals.

I actually did try Regenexx-SD first for my left knee and experienced no improvement in my condition. I improved significantly with Regenexx-C, I mean a night and day difference! With culture expansion you get 100-1000 times more stem cells. In addition to that it's a "pure" stem cell injection, as opposed to a bone marrow concentrate injection (ie. SD) which is really many types of cells mixed together, a small percentage of which are stem cells. Many people do improve with SD though, and Regenexx has registry data showing that. The biggest difficulty with C is the cost, 3 times as expensive as an SD procedure. However in my case, I would have actually saved money if I skipped the SD and went straight for C.

Having researched as much as I can, my opinion is that there is more evidence of efficacy for cultured cells, which is consistent with my experience. Most of the studies on cultured cell injections include MRIs that show repair of cartilage and subchondral bone. My own MRIs show dramatic improvements. In addition cultured cell injections have now been tested in at least 7 randomized controlled trials (just for bone marrow, not adipose). I've searched extensively for similar data on bone marrow concentrate injections and haven't found anything comparable. The studies that do show cartilage repair combine BMC with surgery, ie. Dr. Broyles, etc.

Also, cultured cell injections aren't a panacea. Last year I met a fellow patient who was getting his arthritic hip treated. It didn't work... he ended up getting it resurfaced. My own knee, while significantly improved, is definitely not "brand new". I still have damaged cartilage which I'm hoping will further improve with my second treatment.

Before the FDA cracked down and Regenexx was still doing cultured cells in the US (pre-2010) there was a thread with a lot of patients sharing their experiences. A very interesting read. See the link below:

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=40048.0

Thanks a lot, Mate.

Offline Vanderbilt1

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2018, 01:55:50 AM »
Any update on your progress DB? Iím curious, did the procedure reduce crepitus in your knee?

Offline db1984

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2018, 06:49:44 AM »
Hi Vanderbilt1,

This is somewhat subjective but I do think the crepitus has improved. What's interesting is that when I bend the knee unloaded it sounds about the same, but when I put a load on it and bend I can hear a difference. At it's worst it sounded like a wet paper bag, now it's more like hard clicks. Seems like the cartilage still isn't perfectly smooth but has firmed up. Take that with a grain of salt of course. My 8 month post-injection MRI showed what looked like improvements in the cartilage on the T2 sequence. Most significant improvement on MRI was that the bone marrow lesions disappeared.

Functionally my knees have improved significantly, but still aren't perfect. I'm doing stair climbing workouts and recently started doing squats and lunges just with my bodyweight, but with very low reps, just to see how they feel. I even did a little jogging a few weeks ago, but am by no means attempting long distance runs or sprints yet.

They still flare up a little if I push them too hard, but not nearly as bad as they did before the injections. I have patellar tendinopathy that I've been rehabbing with single leg eccentric decline squats on a slant board. That seems to be my primary knee issue at the moment.
Jun 16: Patellofemoral OA, Lumbar DDD
Aug 16: Regenexx-SD left knee, PRP right knee
Mar 17: Bone marrow aspiration for cell culture
Apr 17: Regenexx-C both knees, lumbar spine, left shoulder
Jun 17: PRP both Achilles, right hip, both knees
Jan 18: Knees and back MUCH better, planning 2nd treatment

Offline exrunner1

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2018, 05:38:00 PM »
Hi Vanderbilt1,

This is somewhat subjective but I do think the crepitus has improved. What's interesting is that when I bend the knee unloaded it sounds about the same, but when I put a load on it and bend I can hear a difference. At it's worst it sounded like a wet paper bag, now it's more like hard clicks. Seems like the cartilage still isn't perfectly smooth but has firmed up. Take that with a grain of salt of course. My 8 month post-injection MRI showed what looked like improvements in the cartilage on the T2 sequence. Most significant improvement on MRI was that the bone marrow lesions disappeared.

Functionally my knees have improved significantly, but still aren't perfect. I'm doing stair climbing workouts and recently started doing squats and lunges just with my bodyweight, but with very low reps, just to see how they feel. I even did a little jogging a few weeks ago, but am by no means attempting long distance runs or sprints yet.

They still flare up a little if I push them too hard, but not nearly as bad as they did before the injections. I have patellar tendinopathy that I've been rehabbing with single leg eccentric decline squats on a slant board. That seems to be my primary knee issue at the moment.

Good to know you are improving. In one of your previous posts you have mentioned jogging up and down the stairs(188 steps) 4 to 5 times a day. I was assuming you are getting back to your original activity levels. What are your activity levels now and what levels are planning for in the future? Have you seen/known anyone who have returned to long distance running after this procedure?

I am following your progress with great interest. The reason being I am also looking into getting cultured stem cell procedure. After years of exercise, I am doing much better now. I am prepared to spend money on cultured stem cells. But if I cannot run there is no point in spending those dollars.

Please let me know what you think about it.

Offline ankle_boneonbone

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2018, 02:09:40 AM »
Hi Guys,

I haven't gotten any treatment yet, due to financial reasons, and while I was +- fine the first two years, I have now definitely deteriorated.

Am now looking into stem cells again.

Anyone knows the cost of treatment at Teknon in spain?

About the hydrogel in Israel, I will get an update and post on the forum for everyone. I know they are now doing phase 2 clinical trials for it.

Thanks!

Offline db1984

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Re: Where to get cultured stem cell procedure?
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2018, 08:58:47 AM »
exrunner1,

Yes, I've been doing the stair workouts for a while, but as of last week decided I'm taking a break for a while to focus more on patellar tendon rehab. The tendinopathy has been much more stubborn than I expected. It's fine once I warm them up but the first few minutes of activity are painful.

People who get this procedure are very few and far between, and I don't really know anybody other than myself who has done it, so I can't comment on people getting back to distance running. I did some running on the beach this summer, but it was only a couple minutes at a time and not something I did regularly.

As for my activity level, I'm noticeably improved but not back to the level I was at before all my injuries. I think this is due to numerous factors, such as the complex nature of my injuries. I think it's likely I'll pursue more treatment at some point in the future, but I can't say exactly when. Might be a few years down the road or maybe sooner depending on my circumstances.

I'm 18 months out from my first cell injections and 5 months out from the second. I would like to get another MRI at some point to see if there have been any more structural changes in my knees. It's definitely not perfectly cartilage repair as I still have crepitus in my left knee, I just want to make sure it's still heading in the right direction.

ankle_boneonbone,

I'm a little leary of the Teknon clinic at this point. I've received three cost estimates from them ranging from 15,000 euros to over 60,000. If you decide to pursue them for treatment make sure you get a straight answer from them regarding price. I would look into the Regenexx Cayman clinic. Just be sure to ask a lot of questions and make sure you get a comprehensive estimate. Also understand this has a good chance of helping your ankle but it won't make it perfect or brand new, especially if it's bone on bone like your name suggests.

-Dane
Jun 16: Patellofemoral OA, Lumbar DDD
Aug 16: Regenexx-SD left knee, PRP right knee
Mar 17: Bone marrow aspiration for cell culture
Apr 17: Regenexx-C both knees, lumbar spine, left shoulder
Jun 17: PRP both Achilles, right hip, both knees
Jan 18: Knees and back MUCH better, planning 2nd treatment















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