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I should clarify, I live in the US, so all the prices I mentioned are in American dollars.I spent about a year digging through the published literature and agree with all the comments made here on same-day vs cultured cells. The Spanish doctors at the Teknon Barcelona clinic actually felt it was necessary to point out the false equivalency between same-day and cultured stem cells in one of their recent publications. Their opinion is that BMAC shouldn't really be considered a "true" stem cell procedure.That being said, a lot of people are getting good results with same day stem cells, although it might have more to do with changing the chemistry of the knee than actually regenerating cartilage and bone. I tried same day cells and it didn't help me at all. Regenexx is actually running a knee OA trial for Regenexx-SD in Chicago right now, although from what I've read they're using an untreated control group vs a blinded sham injection group. That might have to do with the ethics of performing a sham bone marrow aspiration to ensure blinding... but I'm just speculating.The evidence for cultured cells is a lot stronger than many realize. I've found 5 randomized controlled trials testing cultured BM MSC's delivered via injection for OA. One was for post-menisectomy and another as an addition to MFX and HTO... the other three trials were just an IA knee injection for OA. But in every single trial the only difference between the groups is one got a cultured cell injection and the other got the placebo, and the cultured cell group always has better clinical outcomes and regeneration seen on imaging. That doesn't mean it's making knees "brand new" but the injections are definitely disease modifying and have regenerative effects. One of the findings of the Teknon doctors is that cultured cells improve cartilage quality... so that even if changes are hard to see on a standard MRI or X-ray there are still regenerative changes taking place. What's also interesting is that many of the studies are showing subchondral bone regeneration as well... not sure if that's improvements in cartilage protecting the bone or the biochemical "crosstalk" between cartilage and bone, or maybe some combination of the two. It's all very fascinating and I'm always on the lookout for new publications. Overall I think a cultured cell injection (especially bone marrow cells) is a wise investment for anyone with mild to moderate OA.Sorry I'm rambling at this point... can't help it!
Quote from: db1984 on September 16, 2017, 07:27:37 AMI should clarify, I live in the US, so all the prices I mentioned are in American dollars.I spent about a year digging through the published literature and agree with all the comments made here on same-day vs cultured cells. The Spanish doctors at the Teknon Barcelona clinic actually felt it was necessary to point out the false equivalency between same-day and cultured stem cells in one of their recent publications. Their opinion is that BMAC shouldn't really be considered a "true" stem cell procedure.That being said, a lot of people are getting good results with same day stem cells, although it might have more to do with changing the chemistry of the knee than actually regenerating cartilage and bone. I tried same day cells and it didn't help me at all. Regenexx is actually running a knee OA trial for Regenexx-SD in Chicago right now, although from what I've read they're using an untreated control group vs a blinded sham injection group. That might have to do with the ethics of performing a sham bone marrow aspiration to ensure blinding... but I'm just speculating.The evidence for cultured cells is a lot stronger than many realize. I've found 5 randomized controlled trials testing cultured BM MSC's delivered via injection for OA. One was for post-menisectomy and another as an addition to MFX and HTO... the other three trials were just an IA knee injection for OA. But in every single trial the only difference between the groups is one got a cultured cell injection and the other got the placebo, and the cultured cell group always has better clinical outcomes and regeneration seen on imaging. That doesn't mean it's making knees "brand new" but the injections are definitely disease modifying and have regenerative effects. One of the findings of the Teknon doctors is that cultured cells improve cartilage quality... so that even if changes are hard to see on a standard MRI or X-ray there are still regenerative changes taking place. What's also interesting is that many of the studies are showing subchondral bone regeneration as well... not sure if that's improvements in cartilage protecting the bone or the biochemical "crosstalk" between cartilage and bone, or maybe some combination of the two. It's all very fascinating and I'm always on the lookout for new publications. Overall I think a cultured cell injection (especially bone marrow cells) is a wise investment for anyone with mild to moderate OA.Sorry I'm rambling at this point... can't help it!Since you cannot yet send private messages due to your post count I will ask here. Has PRP helped your tendon injuries such as your Achilles? I have Achilles and would like to know. I had the Tenex procedure along with PPR done by a very prominent ankle surgeon in Manhattan and I still have pain, intact, its not much if at all better then before.
Another thing to consider is frequency of injections vs yield of each one. I'd favor frequent treatments over a single potent one. Although it's hard to weigh in, the data just isn't there yet. There is a reason dr saw does multiple stemcell doses after his custom MFX.
Quote from: psny on September 19, 2017, 12:40:58 AMQuote from: db1984 on September 16, 2017, 07:27:37 AMI should clarify, I live in the US, so all the prices I mentioned are in American dollars.I spent about a year digging through the published literature and agree with all the comments made here on same-day vs cultured cells. The Spanish doctors at the Teknon Barcelona clinic actually felt it was necessary to point out the false equivalency between same-day and cultured stem cells in one of their recent publications. Their opinion is that BMAC shouldn't really be considered a "true" stem cell procedure.That being said, a lot of people are getting good results with same day stem cells, although it might have more to do with changing the chemistry of the knee than actually regenerating cartilage and bone. I tried same day cells and it didn't help me at all. Regenexx is actually running a knee OA trial for Regenexx-SD in Chicago right now, although from what I've read they're using an untreated control group vs a blinded sham injection group. That might have to do with the ethics of performing a sham bone marrow aspiration to ensure blinding... but I'm just speculating.The evidence for cultured cells is a lot stronger than many realize. I've found 5 randomized controlled trials testing cultured BM MSC's delivered via injection for OA. One was for post-menisectomy and another as an addition to MFX and HTO... the other three trials were just an IA knee injection for OA. But in every single trial the only difference between the groups is one got a cultured cell injection and the other got the placebo, and the cultured cell group always has better clinical outcomes and regeneration seen on imaging. That doesn't mean it's making knees "brand new" but the injections are definitely disease modifying and have regenerative effects. One of the findings of the Teknon doctors is that cultured cells improve cartilage quality... so that even if changes are hard to see on a standard MRI or X-ray there are still regenerative changes taking place. What's also interesting is that many of the studies are showing subchondral bone regeneration as well... not sure if that's improvements in cartilage protecting the bone or the biochemical "crosstalk" between cartilage and bone, or maybe some combination of the two. It's all very fascinating and I'm always on the lookout for new publications. Overall I think a cultured cell injection (especially bone marrow cells) is a wise investment for anyone with mild to moderate OA.Sorry I'm rambling at this point... can't help it!Since you cannot yet send private messages due to your post count I will ask here. Has PRP helped your tendon injuries such as your Achilles? I have Achilles and would like to know. I had the Tenex procedure along with PPR done by a very prominent ankle surgeon in Manhattan and I still have pain, intact, its not much if at all better then before. psny,Yes, my Achilles tendons have definitely improved after the PRP injections. I had "Regenexx style" PRP with minimal red and white blood cells, 10x platelet concentration.Quote from: diesiel on September 17, 2017, 05:54:21 AMAnother thing to consider is frequency of injections vs yield of each one. I'd favor frequent treatments over a single potent one. Although it's hard to weigh in, the data just isn't there yet. There is a reason dr saw does multiple stemcell doses after his custom MFX.diesiel,Check out these studies, they're seeing significant improvements in cartilage after a single injection of culture expanded cells. This kind of data doesn't exist for the BMAC injections that 99% of people are getting:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25822648https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/treatment-of-knee-osteoarthritis-with-autologous-expanded-bone-marrow-mesenchymal-stem-cells-50-cases-clinical-and-mri-results-at-one-year-followup-2157-7633-1000285.php?aid=54989https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26783191These are some of the papers published by the Teknon Barcelona doctors mentioned above. One of them (R Soler) also runs the clinic in Switzerland.