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Author Topic: Lipogems- anyone tried it?  (Read 45414 times)

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Offline ArmstrongK

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2016, 05:01:46 PM »
Razuzin,
Thanks for sharing.  May I ask which surgeon is this that is approving/supporting PRP and stem cell injections?  I was just curious.
If you can't share here, shoot me an email please.  Are you going with the fresh osteochondral allograft?

Also, what does your surgeon recommend after surgery in terms of injections (ex: PRP once a week for a month?? one injection of PRP?)

Thanks, Razuzin!  Good luck to you!

Offline razuzin

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2016, 08:49:34 PM »
Razuzin,
Thanks for sharing.  May I ask which surgeon is this that is approving/supporting PRP and stem cell injections?  I was just curious.
If you can't share here, shoot me an email please.  Are you going with the fresh osteochondral allograft?

Also, what does your surgeon recommend after surgery in terms of injections (ex: PRP once a week for a month?? one injection of PRP?)

Thanks, Razuzin!  Good luck to you!
Sure,
my surgeon is Dr. Riley Williams at HSS in NYC.
He said that PRP would be helpful after surgery at weeks 8 and 12, as an example. But I guess he would be fine with more frequent schedule.

He was specifically referring to PRP, but also said something like "stem cells wouldn't hurt either"

Offline tomtomtom

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2016, 08:12:42 PM »
Thanks.

Just spoke with my surgeon, I'm likely to go ahead with a revision osteochondral allograft surgery in spite of my improvement. Interestingly, the surgeon was very approving of PRP and stem cells post-surgery.

He mentioned that he recently saw more evidence supporting better recovery with PRP. Addition of HGH would even be better according to him. Not sure if he referred to some studies or his own experience.
You mentioned allograft osteochondral revision ? Does that mean the first was unsuccessful? Then you decided to Lipogems and again go on allograft osteochondral transfer ? Why do not you let it pass six months to see what will be the effect of Lipogems therapy ?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 09:00:15 PM by tomtomtom »

Offline tomtomtom

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« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 08:10:50 AM by tomtomtom »

Offline razuzin

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2016, 08:41:45 PM »
Thanks.

Just spoke with my surgeon, I'm likely to go ahead with a revision osteochondral allograft surgery in spite of my improvement. Interestingly, the surgeon was very approving of PRP and stem cells post-surgery.

He mentioned that he recently saw more evidence supporting better recovery with PRP. Addition of HGH would even be better according to him. Not sure if he referred to some studies or his own experience.
You mentioned allograft osteochondral revision ? Does that mean the first was unsuccessful? Then you decided to Lipogems and again go on allograft osteochondral transfer ? Why do not you let it pass six months to see what will be the effect of Lipogems therapy ?
This is pretty much what I'm doing - waiting while having discussions with a surgeon about possibility of surgery. Correct, my first allograft shows wear, Chondrofix - which is a substandard material has been used.

It's difficult to make a decision about a surgery as I definitely see a lot of improvement, yet I constantly feel my defect. The surgeon is also very confident that the surgery will be beneficial.

Offline kerzas

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2016, 08:13:30 PM »
Also this Lipogems procedure is available in Lithuania, price is 1490 eur

Location and clinics: http://www.kardiolita.lt/en

Offline tomtomtom

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2016, 07:05:36 PM »
Hi razuzin,is there anything new in the condition of your knee ?

Offline razuzin

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2016, 12:44:28 PM »
Hi razuzin,is there anything new in the condition of your knee ?
Hi tomtomtom,

actually, just had a new MRI after stem cells and 3 PRPs over 4 months. From the report
"The trochlear erosion has healed although grade 4 cartilage loss persists, the joint effusion has decreased, bone marrow edema gone". Other more minor things remained unchanged.

So it sounds like something is being healed although it's not cartilage yet.
I'll seek second opinion from a doctor unbiased to any single form of treatment.

I definitely  feel improvement, constant pain gone, I returned to tennis although not to the pre-injury level.

I'm still trying to decide whether to go with the allograft revision surgery or continue stem cells/PRP.

Offline tomtomtom

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2016, 08:26:41 PM »
razuzin - thanks for the response.I think you should wait the next 5-6 weeks with Lipogems progress before you decide to go to the allograft revision surgery.According to some data I've seen, between four and six months after the treatment, going on to a second round of improvements, after the first, which runs in the first 5 weeks.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 08:35:36 PM by tomtomtom »

Offline psny

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2016, 12:07:02 AM »
Hi razuzin,is there anything new in the condition of your knee ?
Hi tomtomtom,

actually, just had a new MRI after stem cells and 3 PRPs over 4 months. From the report
"The trochlear erosion has healed although grade 4 cartilage loss persists, the joint effusion has decreased, bone marrow edema gone". Other more minor things remained unchanged.

So it sounds like something is being healed although it's not cartilage yet.
I'll seek second opinion from a doctor unbiased to any single form of treatment.

I definitely  feel improvement, constant pain gone, I returned to tennis although not to the pre-injury level.

I'm still trying to decide whether to go with the allograft revision surgery or continue stem cells/PRP.

The trochlear erosion healing sounds like there has been some form of cartilage regeneration, is that correct? It will be hard to heal grade IV as its almost down to the sub-chondral bone and is well past the superficial cartilage layer. It is still very interesting that there have been so many positive changes from just one round of lipogems and PRP.

Offline razuzin

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2016, 02:12:11 AM »
Hi razuzin,is there anything new in the condition of your knee ?
Hi tomtomtom,

actually, just had a new MRI after stem cells and 3 PRPs over 4 months. From the report
"The trochlear erosion has healed although grade 4 cartilage loss persists, the joint effusion has decreased, bone marrow edema gone". Other more minor things remained unchanged.

So it sounds like something is being healed although it's not cartilage yet.
I'll seek second opinion from a doctor unbiased to any single form of treatment.

I definitely  feel improvement, constant pain gone, I returned to tennis although not to the pre-injury level.

I'm still trying to decide whether to go with the allograft revision surgery or continue stem cells/PRP.

The trochlear erosion healing sounds like there has been some form of cartilage regeneration, is that correct? It will be hard to heal grade IV as its almost down to the sub-chondral bone and is well past the superficial cartilage layer. It is still very interesting that there have been so many positive changes from just one round of lipogems and PRP.
I just saw another doctor who spent over an hour with me going very thoroughly through my MRI's and entire history. He's a surgeon so he has his biases towards biologics but even he had to admit by saying "keep doing what you're doing because it's working".
By the way, I highly recommend him, especially if one needs second opinion, his name is Ron Noy in NYC.

Anyway, he showed me where the edema healing occurred - there was a rather large spot in the bone part of the image, rather deep below the cartilage and it's virtually gone, showing that the part of allograft inside the bone completely integrated with my bone. He also seemed to see some cartilage in the trochlear part in the newer MRI, although he cautioned that MRI's are quite inaccurate in accessing the level of cartilage damage. He also showed that the lateral images were taken at slightly different angles in two MRI's which complicates the comparison.
In any case, the causes of bone marrow edeae whatever they were were alleviated.

On the other had my medial meniscus tear didn't change at all - it doesn't bother me that much, just aches at times.

I'm not sure whether my improvement can be fully attributed to Lipogems - for example a large amount was injected directly to meniscus and it changed nothing.  It could be just time factor, as when I had a flare up I stopped any activity which aggravated my knee, perhaps it provided time for healing, I was allowed full weight bearing right after the surgery and possibly never gave a chance for allograft to fully heal. But I'm going to proceed under assumption that Lipogems and PRP help and continue with the PRP injections and possibly repeat Lipogems in a few months, unless anything better becomes available.

Surgery at this time is off the table, I feel sufficiently better. Btw, Dr. Noy suggested an exploratory arthroscopy - he thinks that my plug wasn't probably perfectly placed, that was nearly impossible according to him with the arthroscopic surgery.
That could be a possibility should I get worse.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 03:06:16 AM by razuzin »

Offline tomtomtom

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2016, 11:23:35 AM »
Hi razuzin,

There are MRI devices that are adapted for orthopaedics and allow you to record the thickness and content of the cartilage and some other parameters of the knee that standard MRI devices do not have.This technology is known as dGEMRIC(delayed gadolinium-enhanced MRI of cartilage)in combination with some other tools like T1,T2 mapping.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23583465
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115556/

Thanks again for sharing your experience with us.

Offline psny

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2016, 12:04:43 AM »
Hi razuzin,is there anything new in the condition of your knee ?
Hi tomtomtom,

actually, just had a new MRI after stem cells and 3 PRPs over 4 months. From the report
"The trochlear erosion has healed although grade 4 cartilage loss persists, the joint effusion has decreased, bone marrow edema gone". Other more minor things remained unchanged.

So it sounds like something is being healed although it's not cartilage yet.
I'll seek second opinion from a doctor unbiased to any single form of treatment.

I definitely  feel improvement, constant pain gone, I returned to tennis although not to the pre-injury level.

I'm still trying to decide whether to go with the allograft revision surgery or continue stem cells/PRP.

The trochlear erosion healing sounds like there has been some form of cartilage regeneration, is that correct? It will be hard to heal grade IV as its almost down to the sub-chondral bone and is well past the superficial cartilage layer. It is still very interesting that there have been so many positive changes from just one round of lipogems and PRP.
I just saw another doctor who spent over an hour with me going very thoroughly through my MRI's and entire history. He's a surgeon so he has his biases towards biologics but even he had to admit by saying "keep doing what you're doing because it's working".
By the way, I highly recommend him, especially if one needs second opinion, his name is Ron Noy in NYC.

Anyway, he showed me where the edema healing occurred - there was a rather large spot in the bone part of the image, rather deep below the cartilage and it's virtually gone, showing that the part of allograft inside the bone completely integrated with my bone. He also seemed to see some cartilage in the trochlear part in the newer MRI, although he cautioned that MRI's are quite inaccurate in accessing the level of cartilage damage. He also showed that the lateral images were taken at slightly different angles in two MRI's which complicates the comparison.
In any case, the causes of bone marrow edeae whatever they were were alleviated.

On the other had my medial meniscus tear didn't change at all - it doesn't bother me that much, just aches at times.

I'm not sure whether my improvement can be fully attributed to Lipogems - for example a large amount was injected directly to meniscus and it changed nothing.  It could be just time factor, as when I had a flare up I stopped any activity which aggravated my knee, perhaps it provided time for healing, I was allowed full weight bearing right after the surgery and possibly never gave a chance for allograft to fully heal. But I'm going to proceed under assumption that Lipogems and PRP help and continue with the PRP injections and possibly repeat Lipogems in a few months, unless anything better becomes available.

Surgery at this time is off the table, I feel sufficiently better. Btw, Dr. Noy suggested an exploratory arthroscopy - he thinks that my plug wasn't probably perfectly placed, that was nearly impossible according to him with the arthroscopic surgery.
That could be a possibility should I get worse.

I saw Dr. Ron Noy for plica pain 2 years ago. He has an MRI in his office so I was able to get one on the spot, he then emailed me the results. I found him to very supportive of PRP at the time.

Offline razuzin

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2016, 02:50:46 PM »
Hi razuzin,

There are MRI devices that are adapted for orthopaedics and allow you to record the thickness and content of the cartilage and some other parameters of the knee that standard MRI devices do not have.This technology is known as dGEMRIC(delayed gadolinium-enhanced MRI of cartilage)in combination with some other tools like T1,T2 mapping.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23583465
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115556/

Thanks again for sharing your experience with us.
Thank you tomotomtom, interesting.
In practice, I've never been offered this option by doctors providing MRI referral. Wondering if dGEMRIC is widely available in US.

Offline tomtomtom

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Re: Lipogems- anyone tried it?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2016, 06:16:19 AM »
Probably not many in Europe and the United States because they are significantly more expensive than a standard MRI devices..
I think that their role is primarily intended for clinical studies and research in general .















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