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Offline ChrondoCanuck

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My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« on: February 10, 2015, 08:11:23 PM »
Hello,

Long-time reader to these boards, first time poster. Male, 33 years old – I live in Montreal, Canada.

2014 was both the best and worst year of my life. In January 2014, my left knee buckled while playing hockey. I thought I tore an ACL. An MRI revealed grade 2-4 chrondomalia, with heterogeneity of the patella cartilage, and “deep sagittal fissures” reaching the subchondral bone. My issues grew with time. Eventually walking up and down stairs became challenging, and I had to quit any active sports activities. I still make it out to my yoga mat twice a week for an ashtanga style practice, but I have been careful as we move through the asanas.

In May my wife gave birth to twin boys (best part of my year!). They are a true joy but have increased my immobility and related disability – lugging around these 20 pounders, up and down stairs, has surely contributed to my deterioration.

I`ve seen 3 orthopedic surgeons (after waiting months to see them… the beauty of Canada`s health system), none of which could help me. One told me to work on my VMO (duh!), and the other gave me a synivisc shot, which alleviated symptoms for all of 48 hours. The other told me to ride a stationary bike, which I invested in. I do find it helps to work the joint by moving, which is in keeping with what I learnt from reading this blog: http://savingmyknees.blogspot.ca/, where the author claims to have healed his arthritis by keeping the joint in almost constant movement (but who has time for that?) for over a year by walking, biking, swimming, etc. The lesson is also in keeping with the current recommended post-op procedure for micro-fracture surgery, where patients are supposed to spend 12 hours a day in a continuous motion machine. Of course, only professional athletes can make that kind of commitment.

But I digress. The reason for this post is to share with you, and hopefully obtain feedback, on my research into prolotherapy, PRP and stem cell therapy. Unfortunately, I have only located 1 doctor in my region who performs PRP, but I have yet to see him, with an appointment scheduled for March that I made back in December. Since I am not content to let this drag out, and as my injury affects my daily life (i.e. unable to comfortably carry my children, squat to play beside them, etc.) I have looked into the various stem cell clinics in the U.S.A. These are the basic results of my research – a lot of my research was helped along by reading these boards:

Regenexx: http://www.regenexx.com/

Much loved (and loathed) on the boards. I submitted an application and was referred to my closest geographic clinic in Burlington Vermont for a SD+ procedure with Dr. Felton. The SD+ consists of 3 steps: (i) plaletel lysate (i.e. something better than dextore prolotherapy); (ii) BMC stem cell treatment; and (iii) SCP (which is their form of advanced PRP). The 3 steps are done over a 10 day period. You are supposed to swear off any smoking, drugs or ibuprofen for 1 month preceding and 2 months following.

Quoted price: USD$5400

Longitude of treatment: “a couple of years” according to Dr. Fenton (who I got to speak to directly, and exchanged emails), though Regenexx website says people have better success if they return for another treatment within 1 year (improvement from 50% to 75%). Again, their data is based on user reviews, which, as something users on this board have pointed out, I am skeptical of. But at least they have some data… none of the other clinics do.

Caring Medical: http://www.caringmedical.com/

They have offices in Chicago and Fort Myers, Florida. I spoke with a couple of clinical assistants and perused the website. Never spoke to a doctor. They do prolo (which they are known for), PRP, BMC (from hip and tibia) and Lipo Aspirate. The prices vary. Here they are:

PRP = $500
Prolo = $425
Tibia (direct) = $1150
Hip (concentrate or direct) = $1550 vs $1950
Lipo Aspirate (combined with PRP) = $1800

Longitude of treatment: If I go with one of the stem cell treatments, they recommend I return every 2nd month for up to 6 treatments. Assuming I go with the most expensive of the treatment at $1950, that would work out to close to 12K for 6 treatments. Factor in travel with round trips flights around $750, and this would be exceedingly expensive. They have no data on how long the effects last, and I was told the doctor doesn’t speak to patients until the day you show up.

Docere Clinics: http://www.docereclinics.com/

Dr. Adelson, a favorite on these boards, is the leader of this clinic. I spoke to his clinical assistant only. She told me I should do combo of BMC and Lipo Aspiration. Here are the quotes:

Bone marrow & fat aspiration = $5000
Bone marrow = $2500
Fat aspiration (SVF) = $4000

These quotes seem much higher to the prices everyone around these boards received.

Longitude of treatment: They recommended I return 2-3 times in 1 year to achieve “long-lasting” effects. If I did that, it would be 15K plus roundtrip flights to a relatively remote state, costing about $1000 each.

Cross Bay Physical Medicine:  http://www.crossbaypmr.com/

This clinic is located in Queens, NY. I spoke only to a clinical assistant. It begins with a stem cell treatment and follows with a double-spin PRP 5 weeks later

BMC or SVF = $3500
PRP = $1200

The Institute of Regenerative & Molecular Orthopaedics: http://www.stemcellorthopedic.com/

This is the famous Dr. Purita’s clinic located in Boca Raton, Florida. I spoke only to a clinical assistant. They offer either their 4-step treatment or 1-day stem-cell one-off.

4 part treatment (stem cell mix of BMC, SVF and “growth factors” followed by 3 PRPs 6 weeks apart) = $5600
Stem-cell one-time = $3400
Stand-alone PRP shot = $800

Valley Sports Physicians and Orthopedics Medicine: http://www.jockdoctors.com/services

This clinic is located in Avon, Connecticut. I spoke only to a clinical assistant. They recommend a pre-treatment of dextorose prolotherapy followed by a stem-cell treatment 1-3 weeks later. They claim their patients get 1-3 years relief and those that return just do PRP boosters.

Prolo = $300
BMC stem cell = $2400
SVF = $1700

That summarizes my research to date. As you can see by running the numbers, only Caring Medical offers a per-session treatment substantially cheaper than the others, but they recommend more frequent sessions than their competitors. I would welcome any feedback on these clincs or others, or any other thoughts on my treatment options, including change in exercise routine / diet that has helped others like me.

Many thanks!

Offline MDAL

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 09:13:52 PM »
Lot's of options... I won't make public comments about the options below, because that could lead to another blocked thread.

Personally, I do have my views mostly against how marketing tends to be put ahead of facts and truth, but still been a voodoo doll for stem cells and PRP for a long time... Number > 20 now, and I have improved to became close to totally asymptomatic after a few of those. I do recommend these treatments as long as you are an ideal candidate (not too old, not totally devastated cartilage to begin with) and make the right choices on the type of treatment.

My general recommendations:

1) Don't pay too much for PRP. I been having it for 170 US dollars (different continent - with currency conversion) and works wonders. There are many different preparations of PRP, but number of injections should always be a better metric than concentration. Cartilage doesn't grow or heal overnight, no matter how super concentrated whatever you take is... long term supply is the key.

2) Attention to lipo-aspirates. There are too different things: True SVF and fat grafts. SVF is separated by enzymes and you get according to literature a number of stem cells to an amount of nearly 3 million from 60mls extracted. Fat graft is almost pure fat with no separation. So it's an injection of liquified bacon... you get a nasty inflammation once injected and according to testimonials, not much of an improvement to justify the initial reaction. If it's NOT true SVF, I wouldn't take it... but if it is real SVF the results tend to be amazing (this is not only mine). So be careful with scams on "fat stem cells". Not all of them are real fat stem cell treatments (real SVF) sometimes even if they claim it is.

3) Dextrose =  rip off... this is non-sense. Been looking for long and can't find any evidence on this, except for some clearly biased studies done by pseudo-doctors with no actual scientific control.

4) No single injection of anything is going to bring you miracles... long term supply is the key. Stem cells alone may not be the best option... Stem cells with hormonal/growth factor stimulation (PRP for example) tends to often be the game changer...

I prefer not going into more details (more targeted to the options below), but if you want we can discuss it in private - I'm already talking with dozens of stem cells / PRP / and all sorts of voodoo patients I meet in forums like this.

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 05:10:10 AM »
You should also look at Dr. Edward Magaziner. He is in New Jersey, halfway between Philadelphia and New York City.

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 09:37:20 PM »
Thanks MDAL, PSNY. I will reach out to Magaziner. MDAL, would love to pick your brain. Can you please share your email address with me?

Offline MDAL

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 05:18:41 PM »
Sent by PM

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2015, 04:25:06 PM »
ChrondoCanuck, I sent you my email via PM. Shoot me an email so I have your contact details. I have some feedback as well. I've personally been to one of the doctors on the list.

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 06:51:27 PM »
Hi all,

Quick update here.

I had a PRP injection last Thursday at Centre Chiromedic with Dr. Francis Fontaine: http://chiromedic.ca/. The cost is $800. I am cautiously optimistic. I seem to have less pain and inflammation but I haven't pushed myself very hard. It might all be placebo effect. He only suggests 1 PRP shot/year, which is not in keeping with the other clinics. He explained that there was no definitive proof that more PRP shots create more healing, but there is no clinical proof of any of this stuff! I agree that it stands to reason that more is better, and quantity of PRP is better than quality of PRP.

In the last couple of weeks, I have also conducted additional research into 2 additional clinics:

Magaziner Center of Wellness: http://www.drmagaziner.com/category/stem-cell-new-jersey-specialists/

Located in New Jersey, their stem cell harvest is a mix of SVF and Fat graft, with a built in PRP booster - cost is $5200.

Each PRP is an additional $1200.

Supposedly Dr. Magaziner trained under the famous Dr. Purita.

I spoke with Dr. Scott Greenberg, a colleague of Dr. Magaznier. He explained they do both SVF and fat graft, namely because the fat graft provides a scaffold/framework to allow the stem cells in the SVF (100-1000x BMAC) to take root and do their magic. The PRP is used as the so-called "fertilizer" to keep the stem cells working, and they recommend you do at least 1 PRP booster.

He also recommended I have additional PRP shots in my MCL and pelvis, since his assessment of my symptoms was that I had other underlying problems. During the PRP shot I had last week with Dr. Fontaine under guided ultrasound, he didn't find anything wrong with my meniscus or knee ligaments - Dr. Greenberg was skeptical when I told him that. Each PRP is another $1200, so adding it all up I'm approaching 10K very quickly.


SEMI Sports Clinic: http://www.semisportmed.com/

I was delighted to find a clinic in Canada offering stem cells, particularly with the prevailing exchange rate of 80 U.S. cents to $1 Canadian dollar.

Their cost is also quite reasonable. Stem cell therapy is CDN$2250 and PRP only CDN$600.

I spoke with Dr. Stoddard who runs the clinic. Their stem cell harvest is fat aspirate/fat graft, but it is NOT the new form of SVF when enzymes are used to break down the fat and then the stem cells are extracted. MDAL, who I spoke with on several emails outside of this forum, counseled against this older form of harvest. What makes sense to me about it is that the fat graft will at least form of scaffold in the joint and keep the stem cells concentrated in the injured area. I understand that some people have had bad inflammation from this older method, but Dr. Stoddard explained under Canadian law that the new SVF procedure is offside of the law because it would be deemed to be "manipulating" stem cells, much like "culturing" stem cells is now illegal in the U.S. further to the FDA's lawsuit of Regenexx.

Dr. Stoddard definitely thinks BMAC is an obsolete practice because of the concentration of stem cells you get from fat aspirate. The stem procedure is coupled with PRP and they recommend a PRP booster 1 month later.

Looking forward to your thoughts! And looking forward to hearing from you PSNY...

 

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2015, 09:57:27 PM »
Lot's of options... I won't make public comments about the options below, because that could lead to another blocked thread.

Personally, I do have my views mostly against how marketing tends to be put ahead of facts and truth, but still been a voodoo doll for stem cells and PRP for a long time... Number > 20 now, and I have improved to became close to totally asymptomatic after a few of those. I do recommend these treatments as long as you are an ideal candidate (not too old, not totally devastated cartilage to begin with) and make the right choices on the type of treatment.

My general recommendations:

1) Don't pay too much for PRP. I been having it for 170 US dollars (different continent - with currency conversion) and works wonders. There are many different preparations of PRP, but number of injections should always be a better metric than concentration. Cartilage doesn't grow or heal overnight, no matter how super concentrated whatever you take is... long term supply is the key.

2) Attention to lipo-aspirates. There are too different things: True SVF and fat grafts. SVF is separated by enzymes and you get according to literature a number of stem cells to an amount of nearly 3 million from 60mls extracted. Fat graft is almost pure fat with no separation. So it's an injection of liquified bacon... you get a nasty inflammation once injected and according to testimonials, not much of an improvement to justify the initial reaction. If it's NOT true SVF, I wouldn't take it... but if it is real SVF the results tend to be amazing (this is not only mine). So be careful with scams on "fat stem cells". Not all of them are real fat stem cell treatments (real SVF) sometimes even if they claim it is.

3) Dextrose =  rip off... this is non-sense. Been looking for long and can't find any evidence on this, except for some clearly biased studies done by pseudo-doctors with no actual scientific control.

4) No single injection of anything is going to bring you miracles... long term supply is the key. Stem cells alone may not be the best option... Stem cells with hormonal/growth factor stimulation (PRP for example) tends to often be the game changer...

I prefer not going into more details (more targeted to the options below), but if you want we can discuss it in private - I'm already talking with dozens of stem cells / PRP / and all sorts of voodoo patients I meet in forums like this.

A fat graft is a total waste of money, regardless of the doctor performing it, or what centrifuge they're spinning it in. It will do nothing for you, infact, there have been multiple tests done on non-enzyme separated fat showing cell counts 20-30X lower then true enzyme separated SVF. Several members here have reported severe inflammation post injection of fat intra-articularly into the joint. If you are going to commit to a treatment and cannot do real SVF for whatever reason, stick to bone marrow and PRP. Remember the key to these treatments is frequency, the more often you do them, the better the results. 

PRP has an anti-inflammatory effect, which is more likely what you are experiencing currently post injection. Don't let this fool you, cartilage is very slow to heal. One PRP injection will not restore cartilage.

The doctor who told you there is no definitive proof regarding PRP being more effective when repeated is correct, there is little proof that any of the current cellular therapies do anything. Ironically, every major professional sports team physican from the US, South America, Europe, and Asia is using it on their athletes. In addition, the veterinary community, particularly regarding equine has been using cellular therapies such as PRP, SVF, and BMAC since the early 2000's on high value animals with great success. The doctor who told you that bit of information sounds highly uneducated in the field of regenerative medicine. He sounds like the dozens of doctors that added PRP to their practice because its popular and has been featured on the news. It's an additional revenue stream for many doctors, yet they're clueless on how platelet rich plasma and other regenerative therapies truly work. Common sense will tell you that supplying blood to an area with no blood in the human body will always invoke some level of healing. Growth factors, cyotkines, hormones, and other biological products, some undiscovered heal.

Dr. Magaziner sounds very expensive for what you are getting the same being for Dr.Greenberger. $1200 for PRP is ridiculous! The 30ml and 60ml kit for the Harvest SmartPREP2 centrifuge they use in their practice retails for around $175 and $245 respectively without bulk discount. That is a an extreme percentage markup. Knees are one of the easiest joints to inject, thus making ultrasound unnecessary. The entire procedure using PRP is less then 45 minutes. I don't for one second buy the loose ligament / pelvis nonsense either, this is a classic ploy used by prolotherapists to inject additional areas. Their primary diagnosis for most issues is "ligamentous laxity".
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 10:07:53 PM by psny »

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2015, 04:21:52 PM »
Thank you for reply PSNY.

I am just over 6 weeks out from the PRP injection I received. I have seen some relief, in that, if I re-aggravate the joint by pushing too hard (i.e. walking too quickly up the stairs, pushing my rehab too far), I can bounce back much quicker, like the next day. Before, I would have chronic pain the area for a couple of days post re-aggravation, and I would have to move around gingerly. This seems to be in keeping with the principle that PRP has anti-inflammatory properties, such that, if I do hurt myself again, my body recovers quicker. That said, I would love to be in a position where I can do things without the possibility of re-aggravation, but that I presume will only come if/when my cartilage regrows.

I am also headed to Toronto at the beginning of May for another reason and have decided to try Dr. Stoddard's treatment. The cost is 1/3rd of what Regenexx costs in Vermont (the next closest location to me for stem cells), not counting for exchange rate difference where $1 Canadian buys only 80 cents U.S. these days... I understand from our local gurus MDAL and PSNY that this might be a patent waste of time and money, given that Dr. Stoddard's adispose derived stem cells are not "manipulated" as I think is required to achieve the so-called true SVF consistency. The treatment is combined with a PRP shot. Either which way, I should see some symptomatic relief, and his cost of $2250 is less than 3x what my local PRP shot cost me ($800), so worst case scenario I have paid 3x what I would have paid for a local PRP shot and I may face some inflammation post-op. Worth it to me to dip my toes in the proverbial stem cell lake. 

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 10:18:28 PM »
Thank you for reply PSNY.

I am just over 6 weeks out from the PRP injection I received. I have seen some relief, in that, if I re-aggravate the joint by pushing too hard (i.e. walking too quickly up the stairs, pushing my rehab too far), I can bounce back much quicker, like the next day. Before, I would have chronic pain the area for a couple of days post re-aggravation, and I would have to move around gingerly. This seems to be in keeping with the principle that PRP has anti-inflammatory properties, such that, if I do hurt myself again, my body recovers quicker. That said, I would love to be in a position where I can do things without the possibility of re-aggravation, but that I presume will only come if/when my cartilage regrows.

I am also headed to Toronto at the beginning of May for another reason and have decided to try Dr. Stoddard's treatment. The cost is 1/3rd of what Regenexx costs in Vermont (the next closest location to me for stem cells), not counting for exchange rate difference where $1 Canadian buys only 80 cents U.S. these days... I understand from our local gurus MDAL and PSNY that this might be a patent waste of time and money, given that Dr. Stoddard's adispose derived stem cells are not "manipulated" as I think is required to achieve the so-called true SVF consistency. The treatment is combined with a PRP shot. Either which way, I should see some symptomatic relief, and his cost of $2250 is less than 3x what my local PRP shot cost me ($800), so worst case scenario I have paid 3x what I would have paid for a local PRP shot and I may face some inflammation post-op. Worth it to me to dip my toes in the proverbial stem cell lake.

1 PRP injection is nothing. I am surprised you are seeing any relief at all with just 1 injection. I didn't see much until 2. Chondro, I did not see anything on Dr.Stoddard's website that mentioned adipose therapy, just PRP. He may be separating via Enzymes, it is unknown, did his office explain the process at all? Also, if you travel to Europe a lot there are much better treatment options there for real SVF. There is also Dr.Todd Alea in Miami who does fat grafting (lipoaspirate without enzyme separation) with PRP, which is what you described Dr.Stoddard doing. His price is $1800 for two joints. He has posted on this forum before. Outside of that you would have Dr.Joseph Purita and Dr.Harry Adelson available to do true SVF in the US.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 10:49:08 PM by psny »

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 02:50:20 PM »
Update on my status:

On May 15, I had a stem cell injection with Dr. Stoddard in Toronto. CDN$2250. It is "adispose" drawn stem cells, from my buttock. Ii is not "SVF" because of Canadian laws limiting "manipulation" of stem cells. He basically lipo-aspirated my butt, put that in a centrifuge, drew blood from my arm for PRP and put that in a centrifuge, then combined the two into a cocktail and injected that cocktail into my joint.

I swelled up significantly within a couple of hours. I found it difficult to be mobile with that leg for a couple of days. I am mobile now but unable to do athletics. My knee, particularly right above the kneecap, remains significantly swollen, now 16 days later. It's not painful per se but inhibits my range of motion; I can`t for example bring my knee to my chest while lying on my back because of the swelling. I was told not to ice or use NSAIDS - I kept that commitment for the first 10 days but then started to ice to try to bring the swelling down. I also recently put on my old Genutrain knee brace to help support the joint and act as a compressor on the swollen area.

I have not tested whether I can better load the joint in weight bearing (i.e. have the stem cells created new cartilage?), since I know it will be several months before I can have any hope of that happening. But I wasn't expecting to be in this degree of discomfort for so long post-op.. I fear that MDAL and PSNY's predictions that non-SVF fat derived stem cells would do nothing for me but cause severe inflammation will be true.

I would love to hear from some of you regarding post-op complications and swelling, whether you did stem cells from bone marrow, adispose or SVF? Any suggestions on how to accelerate the reduction of the swelling?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 02:54:08 PM by ChrondoCanuck »

Offline dal_knee

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 03:37:55 AM »
Hi Chrondocanuck,


I had (same day) a PRP + BMAC + Adipose (non-SVF) stem cell injection and experienced more post -injection inflammation and pain and debilitation than expected.    Didn't calm down and normalize until my NEXT PRP injection (about 4 weeks post stem cell).   Since you will need a few post stem cell PRPs anyhow, I recommend going in now to get started with your next PRP injection which should significantly help reduce the inflammation caused by the stem cell.   

And btw, speaking from first-hand experience, I have had shockingly positive effects from a single PRP injection in the past.    I think it depends on the concentrations and whether or not your platelets are activated, and level of red blood cell contamination.
2007 - partial medial meniscectomy
2010 - full thickness chondral defect & adjacent subchondral edema MFC.   Direct result of stupid partial mensicectomy from 2007.
2014 - Subchondroplasty, chondroplasty, unauthorized 2nd partial medial meniscectomy.
2015 - partial failure of subchondroplasty.

Offline tlkkkk

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 11:52:03 PM »
Thank you for reply PSNY.

I am just over 6 weeks out from the PRP injection I received. I have seen some relief, in that, if I re-aggravate the joint by pushing too hard (i.e. walking too quickly up the stairs, pushing my rehab too far), I can bounce back much quicker, like the next day. Before, I would have chronic pain the area for a couple of days post re-aggravation, and I would have to move around gingerly. This seems to be in keeping with the principle that PRP has anti-inflammatory properties, such that, if I do hurt myself again, my body recovers quicker. That said, I would love to be in a position where I can do things without the possibility of re-aggravation, but that I presume will only come if/when my cartilage regrows.

I am also headed to Toronto at the beginning of May for another reason and have decided to try Dr. Stoddard's treatment. The cost is 1/3rd of what Regenexx costs in Vermont (the next closest location to me for stem cells), not counting for exchange rate difference where $1 Canadian buys only 80 cents U.S. these days... I understand from our local gurus MDAL and PSNY that this might be a patent waste of time and money, given that Dr. Stoddard's adispose derived stem cells are not "manipulated" as I think is required to achieve the so-called true SVF consistency. The treatment is combined with a PRP shot. Either which way, I should see some symptomatic relief, and his cost of $2250 is less than 3x what my local PRP shot cost me ($800), so worst case scenario I have paid 3x what I would have paid for a local PRP shot and I may face some inflammation post-op. Worth it to me to dip my toes in the proverbial stem cell lake.

1 PRP injection is nothing. I am surprised you are seeing any relief at all with just 1 injection. I didn't see much until 2. Chondro, I did not see anything on Dr.Stoddard's website that mentioned adipose therapy, just PRP. He may be separating via Enzymes, it is unknown, did his office explain the process at all? Also, if you travel to Europe a lot there are much better treatment options there for real SVF. There is also Dr.Todd Alea in Miami who does fat grafting (lipoaspirate without enzyme separation) with PRP, which is what you described Dr.Stoddard doing. His price is $1800 for two joints. He has posted on this forum before. Outside of that you would have Dr.Joseph Purita and Dr.Harry Adelson available to do true SVF in the US.


Hi psny, what are the benefits of svf and what places in Eurpoe are you aware of that perform this, im from the uk

Offline Pier2043594

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 07:21:28 PM »
Chondro— How are you three months out? I have an option to do the same treatment or travel to Dr.  Purita for more costs.  Trying to figure out what to do.  I am just about bone on bone medial and significant Patella damage as well.  Let me know. 

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 06:59:17 PM »
Thank you for reply PSNY.

I am just over 6 weeks out from the PRP injection I received. I have seen some relief, in that, if I re-aggravate the joint by pushing too hard (i.e. walking too quickly up the stairs, pushing my rehab too far), I can bounce back much quicker, like the next day. Before, I would have chronic pain the area for a couple of days post re-aggravation, and I would have to move around gingerly. This seems to be in keeping with the principle that PRP has anti-inflammatory properties, such that, if I do hurt myself again, my body recovers quicker. That said, I would love to be in a position where I can do things without the possibility of re-aggravation, but that I presume will only come if/when my cartilage regrows.

I am also headed to Toronto at the beginning of May for another reason and have decided to try Dr. Stoddard's treatment. The cost is 1/3rd of what Regenexx costs in Vermont (the next closest location to me for stem cells), not counting for exchange rate difference where $1 Canadian buys only 80 cents U.S. these days... I understand from our local gurus MDAL and PSNY that this might be a patent waste of time and money, given that Dr. Stoddard's adispose derived stem cells are not "manipulated" as I think is required to achieve the so-called true SVF consistency. The treatment is combined with a PRP shot. Either which way, I should see some symptomatic relief, and his cost of $2250 is less than 3x what my local PRP shot cost me ($800), so worst case scenario I have paid 3x what I would have paid for a local PRP shot and I may face some inflammation post-op. Worth it to me to dip my toes in the proverbial stem cell lake.

1 PRP injection is nothing. I am surprised you are seeing any relief at all with just 1 injection. I didn't see much until 2. Chondro, I did not see anything on Dr.Stoddard's website that mentioned adipose therapy, just PRP. He may be separating via Enzymes, it is unknown, did his office explain the process at all? Also, if you travel to Europe a lot there are much better treatment options there for real SVF. There is also Dr.Todd Alea in Miami who does fat grafting (lipoaspirate without enzyme separation) with PRP, which is what you described Dr.Stoddard doing. His price is $1800 for two joints. He has posted on this forum before. Outside of that you would have Dr.Joseph Purita and Dr.Harry Adelson available to do true SVF in the US.


Hi psny, what are the benefits of svf and what places in Eurpoe are you aware of that perform this, im from the uk

Please search these forums about SVF. I've responded to several posts, including one very recently in the "doctors registry" thread. There is a clinic in Poland that another forum member here has traveled to from the UK called PulseMed. It is in Lodz, Poland. The clinic is part of a university hospital and utilizes a system called the Cha-Station for SVF preparation. They also use Dr. Joseph Purita's AdiLight system for platelet activation. Private message forum member Fraz for more feedback. You may also want to private message MDAL, he has traveled to a clinic in the Czech Republic that does SVF as well. I am not sure of the name.

Disclaimer: I am no way affiliated with any of these clinics, nor am I a doctor. Do your own research and form your own opinions. I am passing on information that I have read on these forums over the years as a way to give back to the forum for the knowledge I have gained.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 07:03:01 PM by psny »

Offline wturri78

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 10:06:51 PM »
I have started a new blog to document my experience with Regenexx stem cell treatment that I received about two weeks ago, in both knees, to hopefully treat chronic chondromalacia patella.

The blog is at beeskneessite.wordpress.com.  I will continue to document my experience as time progresses, and will happily interact with anyone who wishes to comment on the blog. It's a work in progress :)

This was done by Dr. Mitchell Sheinkop in Chicago as part of a Regenexx clinical trial. It consisted of a dextrose "pre-injection," followed by the marrow draw and stem cell injection the following day, concluded with PRP two days after that. I've now received the whole course of treatment and will continue to post blog updates as time progresses. I hope my experience, good or bad, will ultimately  help you and others to make informed decisions.

Offline xianzai

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 09:37:09 PM »
Has anybody heard from    ChrondoCanuck? My knee is in similar situation and I live close to Toronto. 

Offline ArmstrongK

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2015, 12:35:07 AM »
Wturri78-  Thus far, would you recommend Regenexx stem cell treatment to others with chondromalacia patella?
Thanks!

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 07:37:46 PM »
Sorry I have been remiss in my posting an update.

I had a follow up PRP shot in late June with Stoddard, as the swelling continued to persist. It continued into late July where at wits end, I took some anti inflammatories. Like a miracle, the swelling disappeared. I tried to get Stoddard to give me a discount on the follow up PRP shot because of the discomfort I was under but he only gave me 10%. I was very frustrated. Here's a guy who draws my stem cells and my blood, puts it in a $500 centrifuge, re-injects it, and then charges me $2500 for stem cells and another $500+ for PRP, both procedures taking like 1.5 hours combined. To him, its easy money, and he has no underlying independent research, and no follow long term follow ups with his patients. I will not go back.

In terms of my current condition, I can`t say the stem cells really made much of a difference. The initial PRP shot did, but not the stem cells. I still struggle with weight bearing using the joint. I can go down stairs but with by gait has changed - some days are better than others. I can positively say that while I am still prone to acute incidents, I recover more quickly and don`t spend days afterwards in pain. I think I have the PRP to thank for that.

Next steps for me would be (i) repeating PRP here in Montreal; (ii) pursuing a stem cell treatment with Purita in Boca Raton; or (iii) pursuing a stem cell treatment with Regenexx at their affiliate in Burlington, Vermont. Wturri78 seems to have some success with Regenexx, in reading his blog, so I will keenly follow his progress. I will also follow the progress of others with go with Purita. Given the U.S. exchange rate, unless my condition worsens, I will probably stick to plan (i) for now, though I continue to wish that one day I could say I was "healed" and not have to worry about acute incidents, in twisting the joint playing a sport, or squatting or walking down the stairs.

Ne

Offline Aly0108

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 08:31:53 PM »
Sorry I have been remiss in my posting an update.

I had a follow up PRP shot in late June with Stoddard, as the swelling continued to persist. It continued into late July where at wits end, I took some anti inflammatories. Like a miracle, the swelling disappeared. I tried to get Stoddard to give me a discount on the follow up PRP shot because of the discomfort I was under but he only gave me 10%. I was very frustrated. Here's a guy who draws my stem cells and my blood, puts it in a $500 centrifuge, re-injects it, and then charges me $2500 for stem cells and another $500+ for PRP, both procedures taking like 1.5 hours combined. To him, its easy money, and he has no underlying independent research, and no follow long term follow ups with his patients. I will not go back.

In terms of my current condition, I can`t say the stem cells really made much of a difference. The initial PRP shot did, but not the stem cells. I still struggle with weight bearing using the joint. I can go down stairs but with by gait has changed - some days are better than others. I can positively say that while I am still prone to acute incidents, I recover more quickly and don`t spend days afterwards in pain. I think I have the PRP to thank for that.

Next steps for me would be (i) repeating PRP here in Montreal; (ii) pursuing a stem cell treatment with Purita in Boca Raton; or (iii) pursuing a stem cell treatment with Regenexx at their affiliate in Burlington, Vermont. Wturri78 seems to have some success with Regenexx, in reading his blog, so I will keenly follow his progress. I will also follow the progress of others with go with Purita. Given the U.S. exchange rate, unless my condition worsens, I will probably stick to plan (i) for now, though I continue to wish that one day I could say I was "healed" and not have to worry about acute incidents, in twisting the joint playing a sport, or squatting or walking down the stairs.

Ne

Hi,

I have also Chondromalacia stage 1-2. Do you live in Toronto or Montreal? In Canada is difficult to find Stem Cell. I know Dr.Grant Pagdin, in Vancouver does Bone Marrow Stem Cell, the cost is 4400$. 

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 08:11:24 PM »
I live in Montreal. My chrondomalacia is grade 2-4, and that's as of 2 years ago. When you are talking those kind of dollars I think it wiser to go to the U.S. for treatment. Purita in Florida seems to the best and his prices are relatively affordable. I think I outlined them in my first post.

Offline tulcak

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2017, 09:12:26 PM »
This is my first post.  I understand I have to post 21 times to be able to send a PM.

MDAL, I wanted to ask you about the clinic you visited for SVF treatment in the Czech Republic.  Where you went and when.

Also, is "regenexx" "SVF"?

My niece has had serious problems with her neck over the years and my sister wants to go to a very expensive clinic in the Cayman Islands to get a stem cell treatment done.  They really can't afford it.

I lived and worked in the Czech Republic and now how the health care system works there.  If there is a clinic there, she could purchase the 'foreigners health insurance' and then get treatment at a much reduced cost.

Please contact me back.  my email is [email protected]

and anyone else, if you have some advice, it would be greatly appreciated.  my niece is in such pain.

thanks in advance.
Tom Ulcak

Offline psny

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2017, 07:43:47 AM »
This is my first post.  I understand I have to post 21 times to be able to send a PM.

MDAL, I wanted to ask you about the clinic you visited for SVF treatment in the Czech Republic.  Where you went and when.

Also, is "regenexx" "SVF"?

My niece has had serious problems with her neck over the years and my sister wants to go to a very expensive clinic in the Cayman Islands to get a stem cell treatment done.  They really can't afford it.

I lived and worked in the Czech Republic and now how the health care system works there.  If there is a clinic there, she could purchase the 'foreigners health insurance' and then get treatment at a much reduced cost.

Please contact me back.  my email is [email protected]

and anyone else, if you have some advice, it would be greatly appreciated.  my niece is in such pain.

thanks in advance.

I don't think MDAL is active on these boards anymore. I have his personal email but have not heard back from him. As for Regnexx, no they do not offer SVF. The Cayman clinic is likely Regenexx. I am not a fan of Regenexx. You may search my posts and read more about why. You may also see my thread about my experience with stem cells in Poland.

Travelers insurance, or any insurance, will not cover such treatments or even reduce the cost much by reimbursing for things such as appointments, imaging, and supplies.

Be very aware that cellular therapies, specifically the new wave of "stem cell" treatments are not a panacea. If your niece is in such serious debilitating pain she needs to see a spinal specialist. An injection of stem cells may not make any difference unless the underlying issues such as neuropathy, bulging discs, fractures, and so on are treated or least are identified.

Offline tulcak

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 05:47:45 PM »
Thanks for your reply.  As I had mentioned, my niece has been in and out of hospitals and seen many specialists.  She's had 4 or 5 surgeries.

For the Czech Republic, as I said, I know the health care system there very well.  I had 'foreigners insurance' there and everything was covered after I purchased it ($200 or $300).  I have dear friends throughout Europe who have educated me on their systems.

A few of my friends have flown their family members to the Czech Republic, purchased the 'foreigners insurance' and have had surgeries and recovered in the hospital - almost all the medical costs covered.

Plus, the health care systems in Europe are superior to the U.S. with better doctors, better care, better treatments and cutting edge technologies.

So, really, I am not looking for information on the state of health care in Europe.  I am looking for information on hospitals and clinics where the svf procedure for the spine in the area of  C0-C1-C2 is done.
Tom Ulcak

Offline tulcak

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 06:05:30 PM »
Is it possible for anyone to contact MDAL?  I'd really like to know what clinic in the Czech Republic he/she went to.

Thanks in advance.
Tom Ulcak

Offline tulcak

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2017, 06:06:20 PM »
Is it possible for anyone to contact Fraz?  I'd really like to know what clinics in Europe he/she have knowledge of.

Thanks in advance.
Tom Ulcak

Offline Vickster

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2017, 06:35:15 PM »
Once you get to 20 posts you can send your own PM, he might have email notifications switched on

You can use the 'games room' getting to know you threads to get your post count up
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09
LK arthroscopy 8/2/10
2nd scope on 16/12/10
RK arthroscopy on 5/2/15
Lateral meniscus trim, excision of hoffa's fat pad, chondral stabilisation
LK scope 10.1.19 medial menisectomy, trochlea microfracture, general tidy up

Offline tulcak

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 07:12:12 PM »
Thanks!  This makes 5... only 16 more to go!  :)
Tom Ulcak

Offline Vickster

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 07:19:27 PM »
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09
LK arthroscopy 8/2/10
2nd scope on 16/12/10
RK arthroscopy on 5/2/15
Lateral meniscus trim, excision of hoffa's fat pad, chondral stabilisation
LK scope 10.1.19 medial menisectomy, trochlea microfracture, general tidy up

Offline ankle_boneonbone

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2017, 02:40:45 PM »
Hi ChrondoCanuck, Tulcak,

Any updates guys?


Offline BETTYB

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2017, 04:26:16 AM »
Lot's of options... I won't make public comments about the options below, because that could lead to another blocked thread.

Personally, I do have my views mostly against how marketing tends to be put ahead of facts and truth, but still been a voodoo doll for stem cells and PRP for a long time... Number > 20 now, and I have improved to became close to totally asymptomatic after a few of those. I do recommend these treatments as long as you are an ideal candidate (not too old, not totally devastated cartilage to begin with) and make the right choices on the type of treatment.

My general recommendations:

1) Don't pay too much for PRP. I been having it for 170 US dollars (different continent - with currency conversion) and works wonders. There are many different preparations of PRP, but number of injections should always be a better metric than concentration. Cartilage doesn't grow or heal overnight, no matter how super concentrated whatever you take is... long term supply is the key.

2) Attention to lipo-aspirates. There are too different things: True SVF and fat grafts. SVF is separated by enzymes and you get according to literature a number of stem cells to an amount of nearly 3 million from 60mls extracted. Fat graft is almost pure fat with no separation. So it's an injection of liquified bacon... you get a nasty inflammation once injected and according to testimonials, not much of an improvement to justify the initial reaction. If it's NOT true SVF, I wouldn't take it... but if it is real SVF the results tend to be amazing (this is not only mine). So be careful with scams on "fat stem cells". Not all of them are real fat stem cell treatments (real SVF) sometimes even if they claim it is.

3) Dextrose =  rip off... this is non-sense. Been looking for long and can't find any evidence on this, except for some clearly biased studies done by pseudo-doctors with no actual scientific control.

4) No single injection of anything is going to bring you miracles... long term supply is the key. Stem cells alone may not be the best option... Stem cells with hormonal/growth factor stimulation (PRP for example) tends to often be the game changer...

I prefer not going into more details (more targeted to the options below), but if you want we can discuss it in private - I'm already talking with dozens of stem cells / PRP / and all sorts of voodoo patients I meet in forums like this.
I would like to talk to you about SVF andD PRP . Thanks.

Offline BETTYB

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2017, 10:02:22 PM »
I just register to this Forum. I need help before I made any decision for my knees. Does anybody used Dr. Stoddard  services in Toronto for SVF and PRP.  I really appreciate your comments. Thank you in advance.

Offline The KNEEguru

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 08:21:10 AM »
Hi Betty
I understand that you are new to the forum but want a private word with one of the members. We have a security system which is not the greatest, but which works, and that is that new users need 20 posts in order to use private messaging. If you go back to this board http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=5216.0 and play the word game with 20 posts, then you will be a fully-fledged member and be able to private message anyone. (Dont forget to go to the last page of that very long game to add your posts).
Sheila
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KNEEguru

Offline ChrondoCanuck

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Re: My Stem Cell Journey - A beginning
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2019, 03:28:12 PM »
Hi everyone,

Long time since I posted... only reason I visited again was because I hurt my other knee playing hockey again! The good news was that I recovered enough over the 3 years since I had stem cells in Toronto that I felt good enough to play again, the bad news is that I hurt myself again! Trying to remember now what helped me the best. Looking back over what I read implies that the first PRP injection helped the most. Im wondering if anyone else had success with knee cartilage regeneration with stem cells?















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