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Author Topic: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts  (Read 10952 times)

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Offline MDAL

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For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« on: June 26, 2014, 01:44:16 PM »
I have posted this in another thread, since there is a lot of talk regarding Dr. Saw Yong 's method, and a few people wondering about traveling to Malaysia but not able to afford the costs, and hoping for it to become more widely spread:

So for you guys, who are Dr. Saw enthusiasts, here is another doctor in US trained by him doing it (California I think)

http://cartilageregenerationcenter.com/about-cartilage-regeneration/cartilage-regeneration-research/

Another one in Florida:
http://www.andrewsortho.com/staff/bio.php?doc_id=58569


There seems to be some connection between clinics and clinical trials, Dr. Broyles, is using a similar technique with MFX + PRP:

http://cartilageregenerationcenter.com/about-cartilage-regeneration/knee-replacement-alternative-cartilage-regeneration/
http://boneandjointclinicbr.com/physicians/jeb/

Another similar thing going on (Dr. David McGuire, Alaska):

http://www.akopc.com/

In this video, a Dr. Saw Patient mentions a list of US Doctors in several states, using the same method, it's an old video, but he points out a couple of different names:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPEtNdPoy8U

Here is an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVEEYodsEoA

Since he is actually focused on training and spreading the word feel free to post any world wide clinic or doctor doing it... or any relevant information and clinical studies...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 02:43:10 PM by MDAL »

Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 01:57:01 PM »
Another point of discussion:

This method consists on MFX, followed by (unknown number - please complete) of peripheral blood stem cells processing and injection, together with HA.

Bleeding of bone marrow from MFX would form a clot, become a gelatine like substance that is consistent enough to serve as a scaffold material. Post injections of stem cells from blood would be captured by this scaffold, providing a faster and especially higher qualitative result.

The claims are that unlike MFX alone, this new method would provide real hyaline cartilage, fully integrated with the surrounding cartilage.

One question that bugs me... Peripheral blood progenitor stem cells, are captured from blood, so basically, it is possible that it is also a PRP concentrate (question?), which would contain large number of growth hormones...

Would MFX followed by consecutive injections of PRP, achieve similar results than Dr. Saw Yong's method? That is, since both blood preps are similar, only one focused on stem cells, and the other focused on hormone therapy, but in the end we are not sure if the hyaline cartilage formation is due to more stem cells, specific blood progenitor stem cells, or a result of hormone alone.

If we follow Dr. Dunn method (iagh.com), we have similar claims that HGH (hormone therapy), in large amounts is creating hyaline like cartilage as well. From talking to a few of his patients and seeing totally devastated sides of the knee (lateral or medial), being progressive filled with cartilage, as demonstrated by XRay (not MRI), but actual Xray...

Offline kerzas

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 08:08:29 PM »
Thank you MDAL, very interesting reading.

Maybe there are people in in this forum who underwent throught this type of treatment?

Is there any options to get this type of treatment in EU countries?

Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 08:41:07 PM »
Hello again Kerzas:

I doubt there would be too many patients here... not many people can afford to go to Malaysia, dropping their jobs and family, staying there for months and paying a huge bill... I suppose the initial patients were locals there, and only now a few are traveling for it. Maybe with some luck there would be one around here, but I don't think anyone came forward with it yet...

It is possible to do it in Europe, not too far from you, but with some variations, not the exact same method, but there is one guy trying to do something similar, with peripherial progenitor blood stem cells (not sure about price, I have started contacts though)... I can explain you the details if you like by mail or next time we talk in skype...

Offline vickster

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 09:05:20 PM »
How does it compare to AMIC with Chondrotissue which is performed in Europe.  Indeed a few year's ago I discussed it with my OS, but couldn't get it funded at that time.  I think there was one poster on here only who had undergone AMIC (single stage, microfracture plus scaffold)

http://www.biotissue.de/en-ProductsPatientsChondrotissueIntroduction.html
Came off bike onto concrete 9/9/09
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Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 09:23:46 PM »
Vickster:

There are dozens of scaffold materials in the market now as well as plugs, and they can be used by surgeons in many different ways... they are inventing new ones almost daily...

According to what I read about this Chondrotissue, it is meant to be used as sealing agent, so that they do the MFX or a bone abrasion, and they use this or any other in the market to seal it. Some come in the form of gel that then gets harder, others come as 3D shapes that can be cut and placed into the zone.

The point is to create a scaffold. For this some doctors do MFX or abrasion, others do a bone marrow extraction from crest bone, some concentrate some don't.

Dr. Saw method uses no scaffold at all, he first does MFX, classic one. Then he uses a machine to separate blood progenitor stem cells (similar to a dialysis machine at least visually) and injects them routinely into the joints for a certain period (I think several weeks or even months) together with HA. According to his analysis, the injections of these added stem cells, that turn the new cartilage into real hyaline.

Some doctors are doing the same, but with injections of PRP... however they aren't doing biopsies to confirm the nature of the cartilage created (I don't think there would be too many volunteers for that anyway)...

It is not 100% clear to me if the changes in nature of cartilage, comes from the peripherial stem cells, or from the huge amount of growth hormones that can be concentrated in the blood prep. As a matter of fact, the doctors achieving any real success with stem cells, are doing them concomitantly with hormonal therapies to tell stem cells what to do and to speed it up (PRP injections and/or IGF, HGH). Stem cells have no idea what to do, unless there are hormones to give them incentive and "instructions".

So the difference between Dr. Saw method and what you linked, is that there is no scaffold in his method. What there is, is added stem cells through repeated injections together with concentrated growth hormones from blood.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 09:41:40 PM by MDAL »

Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 04:27:06 PM »
A fellow forum member sent me this video with a presentation by Dr. Saw.

Up to now, there wasn't much information (except the very basics of it), but in this video the whole methodology is explained in depth... It's seriously worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwR5Vpr_CyY

Offline KO

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 11:53:33 PM »
I had this done on my right knee for 3 full-thickness lesions (medial femoral condyle, lateral femoral condyle, head of trochlea) by Dr. Rhyneer in Anchorage.  There are 3 doctors in Anchorage that have been using his method as part of a study.  Based on the success of my 6-month MRI (full thickness cartilage grown in 2 of the 3 locations and nearly full on the 3rd), we did my left knee in December.  My right knee definitely has cartilage - I can road bike with no pain, and stairs are also pain free.  I have some lingering issues with muscle firing/timing but I am doing a slow recovery to let the cartilage grow/mature so am being patient with those issues.  6 weeks on crutches is a long time, but for the progress thus far it is well worth it to me.  Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss or want more info.

Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 10:14:32 AM »
Hello KO:

What stem cells did they give you in Alaska? Directly extracted BM from bone or from blood as in Malaysia?

Could you detail the protocol you had?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 10:16:39 AM by MDAL »

Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 10:28:13 AM »
One more question, what was the compartment that is not yet 100% full thikness?

Offline kerzas

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Offline MDAL

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 07:32:12 PM »
I think it's almost the same procedure?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/23/new-stem-cell-operation-revolutionise-treatment-knee-injuries

?

Nope, related but not the same, in that case there is microfracture to bleed out bone marrow. Then a bone marrow concentrate from the hip is put in place where the clotting is forming from microfracture with glue (I suppose fibrin glue or eventually a 3D scaffold material), but there is no information on precise detail from that article.

Differences seem to be:

- Dr. Yong uses a different type of MFX, deeper holes and much more close together during MFX.

- Dr. Yong Lets the bone marrow run freely from there. While in this procedure it seems to be sealed with glue.

- Dr. Yong injects for 5 consecutive weeks (?) a mix of hyaluronic acid + stem cells from blood, which is also a PRP concentrate since they are processed in a centrifuge. This one you linked added stem cells are implanted just once...

To me the main difference, is that the several weeks of consecutive injections of stem cells derived from blood also add a mix of growth factors / hormones from the platelet concentrate, which may alter the nature of the cartilage created. Not so much in the quantitative side but in the qualitative.


Offline kerzas

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2015, 08:26:03 AM »
I see this Year Saw will participate in ISAKOS congress, so really his work is gaining international attention, here is agenda:
http://www.isakos.com/meetings/2015congress/InteractiveAgendaHome.aspx

Presentation of Saw method:
https://www.isakos.com/data/abstractpresentations/ForumII/2015-06-09/1045-SectionID965/1100-Saw/OUTLINE_SESSION_1660_MEMBER_ID_70927.pdf


Offline dal_knee

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 08:18:26 PM »
I had this done on my right knee for 3 full-thickness lesions (medial femoral condyle, lateral femoral condyle, head of trochlea) by Dr. Rhyneer in Anchorage.  There are 3 doctors in Anchorage that have been using his method as part of a study.  Based on the success of my 6-month MRI (full thickness cartilage grown in 2 of the 3 locations and nearly full on the 3rd), we did my left knee in December.  My right knee definitely has cartilage - I can road bike with no pain, and stairs are also pain free.  I have some lingering issues with muscle firing/timing but I am doing a slow recovery to let the cartilage grow/mature so am being patient with those issues.  6 weeks on crutches is a long time, but for the progress thus far it is well worth it to me.  Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss or want more info.

KO,  great news & thanks for sharing.   I wanted to give you a tip on getting the muscles to fire again.  Have you tried dry needling?    It's certainly helped get my quads working normally again.   It should help you rather quickly -- like 1 to 2 sessions.  Problem is that if you are having chronic pain, you will continue to have the muscular response that you describe.    Best to keep up with it through out your surgical recovery period.         
2007 - partial medial meniscectomy
2010 - full thickness chondral defect & adjacent subchondral edema MFC.   Direct result of stupid partial mensicectomy from 2007.
2014 - Subchondroplasty, chondroplasty, unauthorized 2nd partial medial meniscectomy.
2015 - partial failure of subchondroplasty.

Offline KO

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Re: For Dr. Saw Yong method enthusiasts
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 04:43:03 AM »
Dr. Rhyneer uses Dr. Saw's method (he went to Malaysia to study with Dr. Saw) . . . so I did blood-derived via aphoresis stem cells + platelets . . . the area that had the least growth at 6 months was the medial femoral condyle, but I did 3 booster shots of stem cells/HA after the MRI, so the prognosis is good.

I haven't tried dry needling - have tried acupuncture and lots of PT . . . now that my left leg is weight bearing, my right knee is doing much better . . .















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