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Author Topic: My PRP adventure  (Read 10032 times)

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Offline amoler

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My PRP adventure
« on: June 29, 2011, 03:37:57 PM »
I haven't been able to locate very much commentary on EXACTLY how a PRP procedure "goes." So I figured I'd post for a few days or so and somebody else my find the info helpful.

PRP - THE EVENT
They drew 20 ml of blood. I was slightly surprised I thought it would require more. They have a centifuge based gadget for getting rid of most of the unwanted parts of the blood sample. Thumb twiddling occured while they spun everything down.

I'm anaphylactically allergic to lidocaine so none of the lidocaine based cream could be used on my skin and no local was given either. An ultrasound was used to guide the needle into my shredded, bulging mensicus in two separate spot and the rest of the volume went into the joint space with hopes of regrowing some of the cartilage under the kneecap (where there basically isn't any.)

I won't lie. It hurt. (Insert a whole bunch of expletives of your choice here) Imagine a slow push of the needle into the side of your knee joint and injecting battery acid. It creates a slow painful burn that make your leg muscle want to clench and spasm. Remove, and repeat twice more.

That was two hours ago. Currently my knee is NOT happy about bending and although the cramped muscle has died back some, there's still an awful lot of burning ache. The short term prognosis is 2-3 days of hellish ache + crutches, then it shoudl begin to improve. I'm not holding my breath on it happening that fast.

It's now about 20 hours later. Last night was bad. As in Percoet didn't even touch the pain bad. The ache is so severe I intermittently want to puke.
Externally there is only a little swelling but I only have aboout 20 degrees ROM, and that's pretty uncomfortable. I have been told that ice was only for the day I had it done and otherwise I'm supposed to use heat. I also have been told that 4 weeks need to go by before I can take any anti-inflammatory meds.
I'm on crutches (big surprise there) and it can tolerate some weight .
'77- Rt knee menicus tear
'90 -2nd menscus tear
'91 -failed arthroscopy/partial menisectomy
patella dislocation 10/ 2010
Dx = grade 4 chondromalacia + synovitis + Meniscus tear + lax strained medial ligaments
Fall down the stairs 7/20/11 - mcl sprain + 2 meniscus tears

Offline amoler

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 04:23:24 PM »
3 days out now. There was some major swelling last night, in part due to me sitting for 4.5 hrs at the kids swim meet. My flexibility is better. I'm up to 80 degrees ROM with only some discomfort. Walking is still not easy. There's weird crunchy popping with every step and I'm getting some burning/stabbing pain but not as bad. I'm definitely not back to the same level of mobility I had before this, but I know I'm still in "recovery phase." Hopefully I'll see some actual improvement by next week.
'77- Rt knee menicus tear
'90 -2nd menscus tear
'91 -failed arthroscopy/partial menisectomy
patella dislocation 10/ 2010
Dx = grade 4 chondromalacia + synovitis + Meniscus tear + lax strained medial ligaments
Fall down the stairs 7/20/11 - mcl sprain + 2 meniscus tears

Offline helenhelen

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 07:55:42 PM »
i'm interested to continue hearing about your progress with this treatment. how are you now? thanks for posting!

Offline amoler

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2011, 01:19:45 PM »
I have been reasonably happy with the improvement in the under the knee cap part of my pain. I think/hope I have undergone some cartilage rebuilding to help combat the chondromalacia (Grade IV) that is there. But... and this actually doesn't directly have anything at all to do with the PRP. I fell down the stairs on 3 days ago, and have been in in some pretty bad pain in my bum knee since. I'm really hoping I haven't un-done all the improvements from the PRP.  :'(
'77- Rt knee menicus tear
'90 -2nd menscus tear
'91 -failed arthroscopy/partial menisectomy
patella dislocation 10/ 2010
Dx = grade 4 chondromalacia + synovitis + Meniscus tear + lax strained medial ligaments
Fall down the stairs 7/20/11 - mcl sprain + 2 meniscus tears

Offline chandra

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 03:53:53 AM »
Hi..i am planning to take PRP shot to reduce pain from chondromalacia. Pls keep posting of your progress from the treatment.

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 05:22:26 AM »
You can also try this to reduce pain because of chondromalacia

http://www.bonemarrowprolotherapy.com
http://www.regenexx.com
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline Georgiana

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 03:30:37 PM »
Thank you so much for sharing your experience...I also am looking into injections of some kind as opposed to surgery. I hope you will continue to post, as I too am very interested in following your recovery.

Offline ultra1

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 08:12:23 PM »
Amoler...you have similar to my knee problems. Meniscus op at 21, again at 28 both removed some o it...now at 39 I have mild OA. Im considering a PRP shot before my OA level gets worse.....please keep updating.........are you hoping to get back to sport? Im a runner

Offline amoler

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 04:03:55 AM »
I am considering a second go at the PRP at this point. I have continued to be reasonably happy with the lessening of the pain under the knee cap. The fall that sprained my MCL a couple of months ago really set me back on medial pain though. I've had some PT and have taken some NSAID's but the pain down the medial side is still causing me to walk very poorly. It's also pretty wretched when I ride my motorcycle.  I feel like Quasimodo many days. That whole walk and drag your leg kind of thing.

To ultra1 - no real devotion to sports in the hard core sense. I really like to walk though. (I'm a writer and it helps me process plot problems) I sincerely miss being able to go walk 3 miles. Right now 0.4 is about my limit and even that is pretty brutal most of the time. I'd love to back to fencing but there is no way the bum knee could handle more than one good lunge.
'77- Rt knee menicus tear
'90 -2nd menscus tear
'91 -failed arthroscopy/partial menisectomy
patella dislocation 10/ 2010
Dx = grade 4 chondromalacia + synovitis + Meniscus tear + lax strained medial ligaments
Fall down the stairs 7/20/11 - mcl sprain + 2 meniscus tears

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »
If you are looking to regenerate cartilage then PRP injection may not be right choice. It could help with weak tendons and ligaments but not for cartilage, atleast based on my experience this is true. I had almost 10 Prolo, 6 PRP, 8 Prolozone and 2 Bone Marrow Prolotherapy in the last 16 months but still struggling with knee issues. Again everyone's body is different this is just my experience that I had failure with these approach.
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline Ivy973

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 01:48:14 AM »
Hi Ashok -- sorry prp didn't work out for you.  I have heard it can take 10 - 12 treatments of prp to make a difference -- and the more arthritis, the more injections are necessary.  Prolo can help ligaments/tendons but not cartilage.  You might want to try stem cells -- much more powerful and a quicker way to get results than prp alone.
Pain onset: 2008
Pain areas: bilateral hips, knees, ankles, toes
Regenerative therapies: prolo, PRP, stem cells

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 06:45:55 PM »
Thanks Ivy.
Yes recently had Regenexx-SD injections...and making slow and steady progress. Currently undergoing physical therapy.

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=40048.285
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline Ivy973

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 09:45:42 PM »
Excellent!!  Wondering how you know you are now making progress vs when you were simply trying prp...?
Pain onset: 2008
Pain areas: bilateral hips, knees, ankles, toes
Regenerative therapies: prolo, PRP, stem cells

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 04:17:46 PM »
Ivy, I wasn't trying PRP alone...I was having Prolotherapy with [HGH + Dextrose + Magnesium + Testosterone + others] solutions and PRP from a doctor in chicago
http://www.caringmedical.com/therapies/hackett_hemwall_prolotherapy.asp. [Prolo + PRP]

I was also trying Prolozone from a doctor in PA http://drandrewlipton.com/holistic-alternative-medical-services/prolozone-injection-for-back-and-joint-pain/
also had just PRP [without prolotherapy] from a local doctor in NJ.

Bone Marrow Prolotherapy from the same doctor in Chicago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsZ--Bc9v9E, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DealmN94tRw&feature=related

I tried all the above mentioned injections for almost 12-16 months. But I didn't find any relief.
I had problems with full weight-bearing while walking so was using single crutch to aid walking for more than 2 years...with all the above mentioned treatments, I had all the symptoms of persistent pain, swelling, stiffness in the knee. I cannot walk more than 10-15 mins and cannot stand for more than 5-10 mins even with the help of a crutch.

Now after Regenexx injections by August 2011, my swelling has bit reduced though not fully. Am able to bear weight while walking. I can walk for 10 mins without pain in my knee. But again standing for more than 5-10 mins is still a problem, prolonged sitting gives me stiffness in the knee. Based on doctor's advice currently undergoing some aggressive physical therapy...PT kind of giving me back the required strength on my knee, hip, back and other joints which were inhibiting my mobility earlier.

Other than that I cannot really say whether Prolotherapy, PRP and Prolozone that they really failed or helped but after Regenexx injections am seeing that I am making some progress, still it is slow but at least I can feel that am making some progress.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 06:39:39 PM by ashok_guru »
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline rob wilson

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Re: My PRP adventure
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 09:43:53 PM »
Interesting Read from Regenexx Blog re PRP, Stem cells and Prolotherapy

Prolotherapy and stem cells? Prolotherapy is an injection technique whereby certain solutions are injected to cause an inflammatory healing response. We’ve used the technique for years to tighten lax ligaments and get rid of tendon related pain. We’ve published research on prolotherapy and based on our experience, this is a great technique that if applied by every family doctor could save the US health care system billions of dollars. Having said that, recently we became aware of physicians offering cellular therapy (PRP and/or stem cells) with prolotherapy, which regrettably means that these physicians are injecting dead cells. Let me explain. Prolotherapy works in part by causing local cellular injury to an area, similar to debridement of a non-healing wound. For example, it’s been known for centuries that “roughing up” (debriding) a non-healing wound will result in that wound slowly progressing toward being healed. The same applies to prolotherapy, where the solution injures or kills the superficial layer of cells in order to chemically “rough up” a non-healing area, which causes healing resources to home in on the spot. In essence prolotherapy works by giving you another bite at the healing apple. However, add stem cell or platelets to that mix or inject one and then the other in the same space and the injected cells will quickly perish. Why? Prolo works by osmotic action, it’s a hyper-concentrated solution that sucks the water out of the cells it touches. If those cells are layered deep, then only the superficial cells would be impacted, causing a pro-inflammatory healing response, just like a cosmetic laser kills off the superficial layer of skin cells to rejuvenate the skin. However, if those cells are in solution (like stem cells and platelets), they will quickly shrivel and die while the water is sucked out of the cell. If the physician is using prolotherapy and PRP (platelet rich plasma) together, the good news is that while the platelets will be “lysed” (imploded), large amounts of helpful growth factors in the platelets will be released into solution. There would be clinical situations where this would be an advantage and other times when it would be a disadvantage, but you still end up with a solution that’s likely a net positive to the patient. However, add prolotherapy solution to stem cells and you get a different story. While platlelets are important because they contain growth factors and these help healing, stem cells are important for their growth factors (which they manufacture), for coordinating a local repair response (like a general contractor), and for differentiating into a cell type that needs replacement or repair. So if you implode a stem cell, you might get a few growth factors, but the other two functions are lost. How do we know this? We have an advanced lab where we’ve performed this experiment in 2007 and ended up with dead stem cells. Note the data above from an experiment where mesenchymal stem cells from bone marrow were exposed to various concentrations of prolotherapy solution. Most prolotherapists use 10-15% dextrose. In both the 10% and 15% dextrose cases, the stem cells were killed dead (note that the height of the bar is the surviving stem cell count with the control bar being how many stem cells should be there). Even at a very low concentrations of dextrose (5% is very low from a prolotherapy perspective), most of the cells were killed. Therefore using stem cells and prolotherapy in the same space means you get dead stem cells that won’t help the patient much. The upshot? Using prolotherapy and PRP likely has it’s benefits, but using prolotherapy and stem cells together is a recipe for lots of ineffective, dead stem cells. Does this mean the two can’t be used together? No, we use prolo in patients to tighten ligaments keeping the prolotherapy and stem cell treatments far apart in time so that the hyper-concentrated solution is diluted by the body and won’t impact the stem cells.

1997-Bilateral debridement
1999-Lt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Rt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Lt knee scar
2002-Lt knee ACI biopsy+plica
2002-Lt knee medial condyle abrasion+HGH
2002-Lt knee scar
2003-Rt knee trochlea abrasion+HGH
2005-Lt knee plica
2008 to present-Regenexx