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Offline likewoa2007

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permanent muscle loss??
« on: April 01, 2011, 03:23:14 AM »
Is there such a thing as permanent muscle loss (quadricep loss) after ACL surgery? †I'm going on 11 months and my muscle still lacks muscle tone. There is a loss of muscle control, muscle tone, and loss of muscle mass because maybe the lack of nervous stimulation to the muscles? I'm not sure but I'm going in for nerve tests (EMG, NCS). †I'm unable to squat on my bad leg, can't get down stairs, and the muscle doesnít allow me to put much weight on leg because there is no tone to the muscle.
I hope that they find nerve damage because the lack in muscle is not allowing me to walk right and do the normal functions to this point. †If I sit for too long or place much activity on my leg, the knee locks up severely. At that point my knee locks up so severe that I cant bend, flex, or extend my joint. The surgery did more harm then good to me. †Anyone out there that has had this happened to them or know something about this?
Thanks



Offline bd1

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 04:51:02 AM »
Hi,
After my knee surgery in 05 I lost all my muscle mass & control of my knee, @ 1st they said this was normal due to the severity of my injury,
I couldn't rehab cause I had no control of my knee, I had all kinds of tests which came back negative.
It was though my brain had put some kind of block on me using my muscles, I was in a full leg brace for nearly 2yrs,
I had all kinds of electrical stimulators on my knee but to no avail, I used accupuncture and had my own muscle stimulator.
I don't know how or why but my muscles started twitching & working after about 18months.
After this I did months of hydrotherapy as it was all my leg would take.
My leg is still smaller than the other but I can do things now.
Hope you find some answers.
BD
1999 acl mcl recon'
05 knee dilocation acl mcl lcl pcl recon's 80% lateral meniscus removal
06 plc recon' lcl tighened up
Chronic lcl problems(ongoing)
reinjured dec10 mcl grade 2
hamstring tear

Offline likewoa2007

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2011, 07:01:10 PM »
Sounds like you had a severe case of muscle loss similar to mine. No matter how much muscle strengthening I do, the muscle doesnít progress. I hope to find answers in those tests I take.  SO when you felt the muscle twitching after 18 months did your muscle look different at that point? Did it just expand out and come alive? I have constant twitching in my muscle and sometimes muscle spasms.  I just donít understand this severe muscle loss and it sucks because itís making my joint / leg hard to get around in life.

Offline bd1

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 06:58:25 AM »
Hi likewoa,
My muscles used to twitch a lot of the time during the 18months,
It was just 1day the twitching was more persistent and I was getting uncontrolable & very painful cramps. There was no difference in size in my muscles @ this point.
@ the time I had just started seeing a new sports physio & she started teaching me gain control of my muscles again.
It took about 2-3 months of hydrotherapy to gain some mass & control, after that period I was allowed out of my leg brace & off crutches & put in a smaller functional brace.
I found it hard to walk properly after 2yrs in a brace & on crutches I had to re-learn to control my leg when walking again,
I still have days now where my knee feels  weak but I think thats cause of my lcl problems as my muscles are pretty strong now.
Good luck likewoa hope your leg starts firing again soon
BD
1999 acl mcl recon'
05 knee dilocation acl mcl lcl pcl recon's 80% lateral meniscus removal
06 plc recon' lcl tighened up
Chronic lcl problems(ongoing)
reinjured dec10 mcl grade 2
hamstring tear

Offline raul

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2011, 12:19:28 PM »
sorry for your muscle problems! but luckily for you, in your country you can find PT who know how to teach you how to walk again and how to gain muscle control back! where i come from i couldn't find any help for this! i have some big problems in my right knee, as well ! i had 2 surgeries and have been in a brace and on crutches for 4 months! and now i find it extremely hard to walk, even tough i gained most of my muscle mass back! so bd1, i would really appreciate it if u could explain to me how your PT tought you how to walk again and to have muscle control during range of motion! good luck !

Offline bd1

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2011, 09:18:58 AM »
Hi raul,
Sorry your having problems with your knee,
After my 1st surgeries in the 6months after my injury I was still having major instability issues, when I wasn't using my brace my leg would give way lateraly and hyperextend,
It was my physio that noticed i'd damaged my plc which was stretching my lcl
I had plc & lcl  surgery 6 months later, after that & my knee being immobilised again what muscles I had left vanished.
When they started firing again my pt had me in the pool doing resistance training with ankle weights to get some muscle back, I found this hard as my knee was stiff,
After I regained some mass she started showing me to teach my muscles to control again by when I was walking with my crutches & my leg was coming into extension to concentrate on holding my muscles in contraction before planting my foot, eventually I got to using 1 crutch & a smaller functional brace
Then I was allowed to start in the gym with weights. As to learning to walk again I think all protocols are diffnrent and to suit the individual patient as to what helps them.
I use a brace again now due to my lcl & to unload my lateral comp'.
Keep searchin for the answers raul they're out there, sometimes they're hard to find. Good luck raul BD
1999 acl mcl recon'
05 knee dilocation acl mcl lcl pcl recon's 80% lateral meniscus removal
06 plc recon' lcl tighened up
Chronic lcl problems(ongoing)
reinjured dec10 mcl grade 2
hamstring tear

Offline raul

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2011, 03:59:34 PM »
thank you, BD, for your answers! u just confirmed something i was suspecting! there is something , i don't know what ( i can only guess it is my MCL and my knee capsula that are not functioning properly ) in the medial/front side of my knee that won't let me walk normally and move normally. i'll try to explain, hope u'll get  my point and u can help me somehow, especially since u have had Mcl issues : according to what u've said your PT tought you about walking , when i try to extend my knee while walking and hold the muscles contracted, it hurts like hell below my knee (not in the knee joint) , at the medial/frontal side. and it cracks right on that part. and if i plant my foot ( heel ) like that, with my muscles contracted, it cracks worse and hurts so bad it forces me bend it immediately! besides, if i stand , contract my quadriceps to the maximum, lift my leg just a little bit off the ground and then wave it like that, contracted, in the iar, from the right to the left and backwards, my knee opens out medially. and it hurts. it is quite obviously how it opens and if i put my hand on it while doing this i can feel the tibia separating from the femur!. now.. my OS ensures me that my Mcl healed good enough and that it does not need surgery.. still , i can't trust him in the given situation  :( how was your Mcl reconstruction? because it becomes more and more obvious to me i will have to reconstrct mine, as well. thank you in advance and sorry for the long reply, i just tried to explain things the best i could!

Offline bd1

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 02:33:16 PM »
Hi raul,
I'd keep pushing your os about your mcl if you don't think it's right!! It's your knee & if it doesn't feel good then it's probly not, @ the end of the day you know your own body!!
I still get the pain you describe in my mcl after I tore it in dec'.
I have a lot of scar tissue & was told it's this breaking down causing the pain,
As for your leg opening up on the mcl when you move it from side to side
Mine does this laterally because my lcl is no longer doing it's job(synthetic lig')
That's why I use a brace to stop it moving.
Good luck raul
Keep me posted
If I can help I will
BD
1999 acl mcl recon'
05 knee dilocation acl mcl lcl pcl recon's 80% lateral meniscus removal
06 plc recon' lcl tighened up
Chronic lcl problems(ongoing)
reinjured dec10 mcl grade 2
hamstring tear

Offline likewoa2007

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 01:49:24 AM »
I had my nerve test both EMG and NCS.  Both came back fine. No nerve damage. I just dont understand why my muscle is so far gone.  I cant even do what I'm supposed to do to strengthen the quadricep. I keep at it with quad sets, straight leg raises with ankle weights and partial squatting but thats about it. My knee just doesnt bend anymore




Offline bd1

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 06:23:11 AM »
Hi likewoa,
I'm sorry you've still got no answers to your problems, has your os said what other options you have?
Have you thought about accupuncture to try and get your muscles firing?
I used to go for accup' twice a week & have deep muscle massages. I'd be using my elec' stim' everyday & after the acc' & massages the muscles felt different, it's hard to explain but I just felt I had more control.
Good luck BD
1999 acl mcl recon'
05 knee dilocation acl mcl lcl pcl recon's 80% lateral meniscus removal
06 plc recon' lcl tighened up
Chronic lcl problems(ongoing)
reinjured dec10 mcl grade 2
hamstring tear

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 09:01:42 PM »
Muscle tissue is highly responsive to forces being placed on it. I highly doubt that the muscle is permanently weakened. What is more likely is that compensating muscles have taken over for the primary muscles. It's possible that those compensating muscles are doing a lot of the work, getting the strength gains at the expense of the muscles that you are trying to work on. The other thing is that in order to strengthen the muscles, you have to put a sufficient load on them. But if it is painful to do so, I certainly wouldn't advise it! Maybe mention to your PT the situation with compensating muscles. You may be able to release those muscles through a stretching program.

Offline likewoa2007

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Re: permanent muscle loss??
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 02:57:01 AM »
BD-
I'm not having any trouble firing the muscle. The muscle fires fine and I do in fact use the E-stim machine every other day for around 20 minutes.  I guess I could try using the E-stim more. If the muscle is firing would you still recommend Acupuncture?  Donít really have alot of money though. The problem with my muscle is that it has neither tone nor muscle mass. My muscle wonít allow me to squat on my joint (knee). I feel like this may be a complication for the rest of my life. I havenít used my leg in almost a year now since the injury / surgery. I'm looking at some of my old doctors reports and it talks nothing about strengthening the muscle prior to surgery. It only tallks about ROM beofre surgery.  I've heard from some PT's that you automatically loose muscle from the procedure.  I hope I didnít loose more than I should have because the muscle wasnít ready for the surgery. I just donít understand that the muscle wont allow me to grow in my PT exercises