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Author Topic: Knee in severe pain, no explanation  (Read 19911 times)

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cdubb

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 08:57:38 PM »
I agree that the way it is so sudden and severe and with the inability to bear weight doesn't make it seem like cartilage failure issues.  I have grade 4 defects on my patellas in both my knees (1 week status post left ACI/AMZ) and even when they were at their worse,  I could walk normally but for the occasional sharp pains that stopped me in my tracks. Stairs and ramps near impossible, as were any other increased load on the job, but standing and normal wakling, okay for the most part.   People walk on torn ACL's and torn meniscus often walk normally before surgery.  Difficult bearing weight is odd with no trauma??  The sudden, severe and bilateral almost makes me wonder if it is some sort of rheumatological/auto immune issue?? 

In the interim until you get insurance sorted out, I'd do as much non weightbearing exercises as you can.  4 way straight leg raises, quad sets, clamshells, etc. 

And as much as our health care system isn't the best, I am grateful to not be in as single payor system for all the reasons listed below by those that are in one.  You may end up waiting longer than you are now to get proper insurance to cover your care.  At least now pre-existing conditions can't be excluded.  When the right insurance is in place, you can treat with whom (plan parameters) you want and generally fairly quickly.  You'll still have out of pocket costs, but I feel that people should bear the financial burden to a degree with medical treatment...that being said...medical bills suck to pay!!!  We're hitting out out of pocket max protection this year, which is $5000....that's a lot to spend to get to that point....that's why I wanted to ensure I got my ACI/AMZ in before the end of the year. 

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 06:08:25 AM »
I think my right knee is bothering me more as a result of using the crutches. Still, it is strange that it would be to that extent.

The left knee is really bizarre. I was making incredible progress at PT, and then suddenly started getting sharp pains at this new location. I should note again that I don't think that the original problem was PFPS, despite the diagnosis. The symptoms I was having, I now realize, didn't really match the description of anyone else with the condition. It seems that it was a highly vascularized and innervated tissue that was irritated, and it was extremely inflamed for a significant period of time. My question is, can a tissue that becomes severely inflamed as a result of mechanical impingement cause subsequent chondral damage? I've tried to search for an answer to this question and haven't found a single mention of it. The only thing I'm aware of is that the inflammation of rheumatoid arthritis can damage joints. But I can't find any mention of chondral injuries other than as a result of wear and tear over years, or a major direct blow to the affected area. It just makes no sense. I have to think that the previous condition has some connection to what I'm experiencing now, but I don't fully understand why that is. I would be as happy as a pig in poop if it ends up not being the cartilage at all, especially given that it must be pretty substantial damage to cause this level of pain. I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, though. How could it be a slight pain just two months ago, and suddenly become debilitating? I've also read the cases of some people that have gotten the ACI procedure, and in some cases they have absolutely huge lesions. Like 10-15 Sq. cm. And they are generally still walking before the surgery, right?  ???

It will be fascinating to ultimately find out what this all is, I guess. But right now it is quite terrifying!

Offline smillie

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 04:51:01 PM »
Don't pin all your hopes on an MRI. There was nothing very revealing in mine and I think it may even cause the OS to take your pain even less seriously. My x-rays reveal my issues much more clearly.
patella pain began early teens
'94 TTT/LR/VMO adv.
'94 MUA
'10 tried PT again
1/11 scope/hardware removal
4/11 (Finally!) dx medial instability due to LR
5/9/11 LPFL reconstruction scheduled

Offline kscope09

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 05:36:55 PM »
Sorry if you've mentioned this earlier Knee always hurts but have you had any scans done on your knee at all.  If you havn't then there is still chance of an explanation before the scope goes in.

Also, I'm curious how you crawl around.  Sureley it emans getting down onto the floor and then back up again and dragging your knees along the floor and that can't be good for them.  I fyou still have a good knee and a pair of crutches then why drag yourself around?
Feb 08 Inurred right knee
18 months of physio, knee tracking but knee still painful
Aug 09 Scope - Small tear in acl, fragment found in postereo-lateral compartment, suprapatella and lateral plica and small defect in mfc.
May 10 Right knee feeling better but left knee causing trouble as a result o

cdubb

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 06:33:05 PM »
Good luck in your search to find an answer.  Let us all know when you get one.

Offline markld

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 06:38:18 PM »
You need to see a knee specialist!
April 2008 microfracture left knee trochlea
Jan 2009 ACI harvest from right knee
Mar 2009 ACI right knee trochlea
July 2009 Aci left knee
Nov 2009 left knee scope to check graft

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2010, 08:14:36 PM »
I've only had an x-ray on the left knee, twice actually. Both times the doctor said it looks completely clean. But an x-ray can only see the joint space, which is fine. If there are other problems or defects inside the joint, it's not going to show up on the x-ray. With certain types of soft tissue irritation, you're going to have an inconclusive MRI, as well.

I'm actually crutching around right now, and it has been fairly painful on the right knee at times, but not so much that I would stop at this point. But given how strangely my knees have been acting the last couple of weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up suddenly bedridden.

Offline kscope09

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2010, 09:46:36 PM »
I've seen from your posts that your in a dark place with your knees I am too at times and it fluctuates from I think one day I'll be back in the Dojo and I can imagine myself doing Karate again and being the person I used to be and the days when all I can see ahead is degeneration and dissability an old man at 29.  I think thsoe fluctuations are the worst thing because when you think things are going well suddenly something comes along that sends about 10 steps back.  I thnk we've all experienced this kind of thing here.

But please don't say there is no diagnosis until every non-surgical diagnostic test has been performed.  Get an mri and see a knee specialist.  I was told by no less than 6 healthcare proffessions (3 gps and 3 pts) that my knee was normal and I was fine and it was all in my head, but when I saw a knee specialist he had a look at my knee and actually listened to me and he believed I ahd a chondral defect and talked to me about microfracture.  When he scoped me he found plicas, a torn acl with a loose fragment floating around and he found th chondral defect which only small went right to the bone.  Before the scope he was the first person to take me seriously and actually believe me.  I had mris and they showed nothing, but I still think you should give them a try.
Feb 08 Inurred right knee
18 months of physio, knee tracking but knee still painful
Aug 09 Scope - Small tear in acl, fragment found in postereo-lateral compartment, suprapatella and lateral plica and small defect in mfc.
May 10 Right knee feeling better but left knee causing trouble as a result o

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 02:21:40 AM »
Alright, this is getting just plain strange now. For the last couple of days, I'm getting shooting pains in the area of the medial tibialfemoral joint in my right knee. All of my pain has always been patellofemoral, never TF! And a couple of days ago my hands were tingling like crazy, and there was a burning sensation behind my eye. There doesn't seem to be any circulation problem in my hands, so why would that happen? I had also experienced similar symptoms a few months ago, but it subsided. I'm starting to wonder if cdubb is correct, that it might be something systemic. I was thinking, what diagnosis could account for all of my symptoms? I'm starting to feel like a patient on an episode of House!

Some of the symptoms that I've experienced over the last couple of months include:

Depression
Anxiety
Mood swings
Depersonalization
Panic Attack
Brain fog
Blurred vision
Whooshing tinnitus in ears
Nausea
Difficulty sleeping
Lightheadedness
Tingling in hands and feet
Burning sensation behind eye
Hot and cool sensations in different places on body
Shooting pains
Heart palpitations
Blood pressure not "high", but higher than it has ever been
Upset stomach
Knee Pain with sudden onset
Gum pain
Other joint pains and stiffness

Could this possibly be all coincidence, or is it likely to be a single condition causing all or most of it? I've scoured the internet looking at symptoms of various diseases, and the only one that closely matches all of this is Lyme Disease. I got a test 6 months ago and it came back negative, though. I've since been reading that the test is notoriously unreliable. I know if I went back to my GP asking for another Lyme test he would think I was plainly and completely nuts. I don't think that all of my knee pain is caused by this "mysterious" condition, since some of it was pretty clearly mechanical in origin. But how could a new problem develop every few days, just suddenly for no apparent reason? And I have all of these strange sensations and unexplained psychological issues. That panic attack was strange since I've never had one before. Sometimes I just feel so horrible, it is difficult to describe it. I've looked up symptoms of anxiety and it really doesn't explain it. Another symptom I've only had a couple of times is when getting up in the morning, I had a sudden feeling of nausea in the pit of my stomach, and at the same time my vision blurred and a I experienced a whooshing tinnitus in my ears. It stopped after lying down for a few minutes.

Oh, and I live in what is considered one of the LD hotspots, and I used to walk or run in the woods almost every day.

If I was considering this as a possibility, what should I do? Find a new GP and mention it to them? Mention it when I see a knee specialist?

Offline Snowy

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2010, 02:56:44 AM »
I'd go back to your GP and ask to be tested again, regardless of how crazy he thinks you are. If the test is unreliable, you've been in an area where you could be exposed to Lyme Disease and you're still experiencing a lot of matching symptoms, you have good cause to ask for the test to be redone. Your health is the most important thing, and if this does turn out to be the answer then it will be worth having pressed for the retest.
Mar 11: R Biceps femoris tear (skiing)
Jul 10: ACLr (hamstring autograft)
Mar 10: L ACL rupture (skiing)
Feb 06: L partial ACL tear (kickboxing)
Dec 03: R bone edema (motorbike)
Jan 01: R patellar chip (motorbike)
May 93: R ACL sprain (hockey)
Ongoing: bilateral PFS and OA

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2010, 03:25:20 AM »
I actually had far fewer of the symptoms 6 mos. ago, but thought it would be a good idea to "rule it out". I sort of forgot about it since then, but I decided to take another look in light of all of the bizarre symptoms of late. Now, it's amazing how many symptoms match. There are even a few more I could list. Of course, the symptoms could be the result of my sedentary existence over the last few months, and frustration with the intractability of my knee pain. This might be the most likely scenario, since LD isn't that common, even here. On the other hand, my dog (About ten years ago) and my nephew's best friend (Last year) were both confirmed to have it, so it isn't that terribly uncommon, either.

I think you're right. However likely or unlikely it is that I have it, I had better find someone to administer another test, or even just prescribe anti-biotics on the basis of the symptoms that I currently have. It's not worth taking a risk with my longterm health.

Offline kcknee

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 04:31:38 AM »
My first thought was Lyme Disease too when I read your symptoms. Several years ago there was an episode on a show called "Mystery Diagnosis" here in the US that featured a patient that presented with a lot of your symptoms plus migraines and had always tested negative for Lyme. A few weeks after the show was on, my husband told me about a friend of ours that was suffering almost all of the same symptoms that you have along with frequent migraines. He had been suffering for almost two years and was giving up hope. He was incredibly depressed and had stopped enjoying everything. He had even pulled his car over to lie in the back and wait out the headaches. He had seen numerous doctors with no help. I called and told him about the show and how it stressed to go to a Lyme specialist since there were additional advanced testing that could be done for advance Lyme Disease. Once on antibiotics his symptoms eventually went away. I'm sorry that I can not remember what exactly they were testing for but it was for advanced established Lyme Disease.

Good Luck.

Kristin
12/31/08 - Skiing injury L knee
6/1/09 - ACL stump removed from joint
8/31/09 - ACLr - Hamstring Graft
12/21/09 - Ant Fasciotomy 
8/26/10 - Anterior Interval Release
12/6/10, 5/5/11, 12/22/11 - Fasciotomy
12/7/12 - Nerve Decompression
6/3/13(m), 7/29/13(l), 12/13/13(m & foot) 2/3/14(l) Fasciotomy

Offline knee always hurts

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 04:44:30 AM »
I can't say that I've suffered headaches or migraines, but these sorts of diseases often manifest differently in different people. Therefore, what the doctor is looking for is a cluster of symptoms rather than any one specific red flag.

What is frustrating is that even if I do have LD, I doubt that it is the origin of all of my knee problems. So even if I was cured, I'll probably still have knee issues to deal with. Additionally, I'll still have the circulation problems resulting after icing back in June, which doesn't appear to be a possible symptom of LD. I guess that it is possible to have many different problems concurrently, but it is getting to be too much. My head spins just thinking about how many doctors I might have to end up seeing to deal with all of these things, and what the final outcome might be.

Offline SqshPlr8

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 07:07:55 AM »
http://arthritis.webmd.com/lyme-disease-test

There are a number of tests for LD, the most common of which test for antibodies of the disease.  If my memory serves me correctly, there was a "Mystery Diagnosis" episode that had a patient who tested negatively for the antibodies over and over and over again.  Later on, though, he finds out that his immune system was so compromised (b/c of medication or the disease itself?) that his body was not making the antibodies.  Only after getting the more direct, "expensive" test (e.g. PCR-based) did he finally get the right diagnosis.

That said, I had symptoms very much resembling yours seven, eight weeks ago.  Nearly all my joints hurt, including my TF joint. I was convinced that something systemic was going on.  Once I had my "semi-psychotic" break and started moving around simply to move around did those symptoms go away -- everything except the knees.  Of course, I could still have both mechanical knee pain and something systemic.  But, at least for me, moving around -- along with re-socializing myself with people and seeing a psychologist -- seemed to completely allay those newer symptoms.

Any word on the insurance?  Hope things start getting brighter, soon ... :-\

Offline kscope09

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Re: Knee in severe pain, no explanation
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 11:22:55 AM »
I saw ashow about Lime yesterday.  It was about this girl who as a model and she'd had spinal meningitis and was supposed to be cured but her symptoms never went away and she went to litterally hundreds of doctors and they all said it was in her head.  Then eventually they found she had Lime's disease.
Feb 08 Inurred right knee
18 months of physio, knee tracking but knee still painful
Aug 09 Scope - Small tear in acl, fragment found in postereo-lateral compartment, suprapatella and lateral plica and small defect in mfc.
May 10 Right knee feeling better but left knee causing trouble as a result o