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Author Topic: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown  (Read 5100 times)

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Offline irentat

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IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« on: May 12, 2012, 12:39:36 PM »
Board registration rules: "Bulletin board users and moderators must behave at all times with respect and honesty." As this may be my last post before being banned, I hope every luck in your journey to become pain free.

It seems the moderator has taken his perogative and shut down a thread pertaining to the regeneration of cartilage by direct injection. They have that option (respect).  What is troubling is the statements made while shutting it down (my opinion but a honest one). 

First off, I have probably been the most vocal on that thread regarding the use of HGH and Testosterone (a steriod per the forum description) IA hence I would assume that the term "bodybuilders" used by the moderator would be directed towards me, as well as others.  Making this statement, I am sure, is to cojure up visions of big hulking guys with no brains.  In a second thread the Moderator indicates that the use of hormones in the joint is not "mainstream".  Whether it is or not is not what I would argue.  What I do respectfully think is that a moderator is using his power to influence people towards a methodology.  Is there another reason for a moderator to come onto a thread and make such a statement?

What I am not is a bodybuilder.  I am is someone who has shared my experiences in the use of hormones that regenerated my articular cartilage when used in the joint and outside.  I have done this without expectation of reward.  My only hope is some people will see results from going down a similar road as me.  I don't suggest people do this on their own and have stated this on the thread.


Moderators:  What do you want to see on this subject that will not get threads shut down?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:49:05 PM by irentat »

Offline The KNEEguru

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 01:38:55 PM »
Hi
I am not simply a moderator, but am the site owner and founder, a doctor, and I also adhere to the guidance of the 'Health-on-the-Net' Foundation, which has given this site its approval as a site with trustworthy information.

If people are entering programmes run by licensed practitioners, even if the treatment falls under the aegis of 'research', that is OK with me, as long as readers understand the issues.

If people are being encouraged to self-treat via self-injection, using medications and methods that in my opinion should only be used under the guidance of a licensed practitioner, then I feel that it is my duty to highlight this and to stop the dialogue where appropriate.

KNEEguru
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Offline Allscarredup

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 07:10:29 PM »
I understand what youre saying, KNEEguru. It is also your site to run as you please. However, the best thing your site ever did for me was expose me to resources and people who showed me this treatment avenue. That our medical systems will allow a practitioner to gouge me for what i can do easily for myself is bad enough. But not being able to discuss this openly is worse. Its a treatment option that seems to truly work.

In what way could we discuss this that would put you at ease? Should we all put disclaimers in our signatures? Or should we pretend synvisc is going to help? Or another steroid shot? My surgeon told me that my dianosis was a non working knee and he didnt know where the pain came from. I realize there are nebulous issues of liability, but is refusing to talk about something that works a good idea? I dont know that its as black and white as Practitioner Good, Myself Bad.

Offline The KNEEguru

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 10:10:37 PM »
The medical profession is not perfect, and neither are all the treatments and methods they are licensed to undertake. However, there is a system of supervision and control - ethics committees, peer-reviewed publication etcetera - that allows critical evaluation and historical review. There are also professional bodies that are able to take a medical practitioner to task for poor practise, and to strip him/her of the licence to practise. Patients of a licensed practitioner are also able to sue directly for negligence or mal-practice, and the profession would take their case seriously.

None of this protection applies when a non-licensed person advocates intra-articular injections to lay-people.

If anyone reading the posts about self-administered intra-articular injection feel that it is OK to copy the procedure, they are risking intra-articular infection and its consequences which can be very serious. I do not think there is any way you can put me at my ease about using the KNEEguru bulletin board as a forum for this topic.

If you feel truly that you have made a breakthough, then the correct procedure if you want others to benefit is to approach a research unit to do a clinical trial, where ethics will be followed, sterility procedures will be followed, results will be critically evaluated, peer-reviewed and published.
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Offline vexen

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 02:51:05 PM »
It makes sense that the thread was closed and it was only a matter of time. People don't like to be liable and that's just the way it is. Looking out for people's saftey has very little to do with any of it. Looking out for yourself while claiming to look out for others is always pretty obvious no matter how you spin it.

I'm greatfull that the thread existed at least and hasn't been deleted. I learned a lot from it. I don't think that being able to sue your surgeon because you got an infection after surgery is protection. I think that's such a backward way of thinking, even if you can claim "something" back if something goes wrong, it won't fix your knee, or improve your quality of life.

I think the notion put foward that the handfull of people doing IA injections were somehow advocating everyone do it is completely unfair. The vast majority of people in that thread were treated by medical professionals. A small handfull of people did their own injections on top of that, and none of them advised others to do the same, they merely shared experiences.

I understand though really, and it makes sense. Using dextrose/hormones/stem cells/autologus blood/etc is very non-traditional, and people are always going to frown at things that aren't universally accepted in the medical community.

Studies were posted though by the way, the thread is littered with them. Anecdotal evidence wasn't the only information posted. If studies are what we should go by is it ok to reccomend arthroscopic debridement? Studies show that it's no more effective than sham surgery. Threads on that every day.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259

I think it was unfair to just claim that weightlifters were doing harm to themselves and others by mentioning the use of hormones, and the thread had to be terminated because of that. The people posting info actually care about the other people suffering because we've either been through it or are going through it, and want to help others by sharing our experiences.

I think only a couple of people who participated in that thread even lifted weights, and the vast majority of participants were those who had been treated by the likes of Dr Hauser, Dr Dunn, Regennex, etc.

Those who did lift weights and did their own injections were not telling others to do the same. Only sharing what they have done, and I'm not sure exactly why that is wrong? Maybe others will follow suite upon reading the limited experiences provided, I guess the thread needed to be closed to save them from themselves in that case?

Anyway, thanks for providing us with a place to share our experiences to begin with. it was bound to end like this sooner or later, I think most of us probably knew that. I wish everyone luck, whatever you choose to do. Maybe there will be ethical, safe, clinical trials that will change people's viewpoints and options one day. Maybe.

Until then, bye bye.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 02:52:49 PM by vexen »

Offline fastglycolytic

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 03:34:13 PM »
If we can't continue the discussion of this topic and sharing on experiences on Knee Guru then those of us that are interested might want to remain in contact with each other so we can update one another on our progress or lack of. Those who are interested send me your name and contact info and I'll send it out to anyone else who is interested, [email protected]

Bryan

Offline flowride

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 09:56:58 AM »
Well, as one of the "weightlifters," I can say that what interested me more than injecting myself was the results that irentat had achieved.  Have I thought many times that paying $450 for dextrose and lidocaine injections to my knees was a bit excessive?  YES.  I'm sure everyone rolling into the office of any prolotherapist has thought the same thing.  Have I thought to myself, "I'm a medically trained professional-I could probably do this myself."  YES-and I even inquired about the video teachings.  However, I've come to the conclusion that I couldn't likely inject myself.  At the end of the day, I respect my prolotherapist and the job he does, and while dextrose and lidocaine haven't gotten me all the way to 100%, I am better than I was before I saw him.  I believe the others on the forum do the same, in regard to respecting their MD, but they are also free to choose their own path.

What I did find interesting was the outline of others' results, the amount of medication needed for injections, and the timeline for achieving results.  It was fascinating.

As for me, I will still be doing the Regenexx procedures and I'm set to do them in 3 weeks.  Anyone wishing to follow my progress, I will likely keep a weekly journal on facebook rather than here on kneegeeks.  With respect to the site owner, I don't want to post something that one may feel is inflammatory.  The posts will include thoughts on the procedure, progress, rehab plan as outlined by Regenexx, and even diet.  Anyone interested will easily be able to add me as a friend by utilizing my email address, [email protected]

Thanks again to the moderator for the forum and for all who contribute.

Offline Kefu

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 03:23:14 AM »
I am have read the entire thread regarding cartilage regeneration and IRENTAN. I have severe knee pain and I am also looking to follow a similar protocol. I would like to remain in contact with people in that thread, and see if we can help each other regenerate our cartilage and/or fix our pain. Please contact me or send me a PM.

I have posted background information regarding my situation and all the treatments I have done thus far in my own thread here:

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=63201.0




« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:40:30 PM by Kefu »

Offline JamesDean

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Re: IA Hormone Injections and Thread Shutdown
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 08:58:11 PM »
Does anyone have irentat's contact information? I have a few questions for him. It's a shame that the thread was closed down, it had great potential. We're all striving toward the same goal here, better/healthier/repaired joints.















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