Regenexx injections - Stem Cells

[ashok_guru]

Thanks Rob.

I am planning to meet Dr. Allan Dunn for IAGH Injections, am in the process of scheduling an appointment. Already sent all my documents and had 3 rounds of consultation over phone.

[Saverio]

To All,

Regenexx was on ESPN's Outside the Lines on 1/22/2012.  Here's a link  http://search.espn.go.com/outside-the-lines/videos/6

Saverio
 

[manville]

I would like to speak about my regenexx experience.

I have an injury which I needed to get fixed, and I was pursing regenexx as I believe they were one of the leaders in the field.  I decided to pay the 200 dollar fee for one of their doctors to examine my chart in a sister office.  I was told the procedure would cost around 4k for stem cells prior to paying the 200 dollars.  I was not informed of any other fees.  After paying the 200 dollars I proceeded to make an appointment.  At this time, the price suddenly jumped up 1400 additional dollars for administrative fees.  I also was informed I needed to pay a 150 fee to the imsc society(or something like that) for registry purposes.  In the paperwork, there are also other fees that "could" result.  I felt this was a bait and switch, but regardless of this, I was still interested.

I then spoke with another doctor who talked about some of the things that he was doing and regenexx were doing.  I gave it another week to sit on it and here are my thoughts.  First off, regenexx doctors are not orthopedic surgeons.  I thought this was odd.  Second, there is a lot of heavy marketing by this company, and a lot of things unsaid when it comes to fees.  There are also a lot of "studies" that they put out there, without any real medical credibility, other then in a blog and some things they say. (minus the two studies regarding safety).  There are also some issues with culturing cells, as shown by outside the lines, and the ability for those sells to grow out of control.  The doctor I talked to said this was a big problem, and thats why the FDA shut this down.  Success comes at what price?  Then there is the fact that Regenexx gets its accreditation and promotes this fact, from the ICMS.  The ICMS was basically started by the owners of Regenexx.  Conflict?  I would think so. 

It seems like a very great marketing engine they have developed here.  My thoughts are, if they were so interested in helping patients out, they wouldnt be on TV shows like the doctors promoting, but instead they would be so busy from referrals like many of the other doctors, they wouldnt need to be on those shows.

Im not saying regenexx is good or bad, but I want everyone to understand some facts and I want my experience to be put out there.  Three is a great blog out there somewhere between the doctor at this clinic and a blog poster disputing a number of good facts.  Search is your friend.

[NickCat11]

Like any new product that hits the market it needs to be advertised so the general public knows it's out there, correct? How many Viagra commercials did you see when their product hit the market? I'm not looking to get into a debate here, those are just some of the questions that pop into my mind when you bash them for advertising. As far as the fees, if what you said is true, then that's not right and you should argue your case.

As a side note, I was doing some more research and came across a product that just got released to the public in South Korea. Cartistem is the name. I couldn't find to much info but it does look promising. Something to keep an eye on at least.

Another good read is this...http://www.journalofprolotherapy.com/free_issue_11/issue_11_03_stem_cell_regenerative_medicine/issue_11_stem_cell_regenerative_medicine_01.php

[Saverio]

Manville,

Why did you think that The Centeno clinic has no Ortho Surgeons to be odd?  They are a Pain Management clinic and the regenexx procedure is not surgery.  It is strictly withdrawl and injections with needles.

[manville]

Manville,

Why did you think that The Centeno clinic has no Ortho Surgeons to be odd?  They are a Pain Management clinic and the regenexx procedure is not surgery.  It is strictly withdrawl and injections with needles.

Its odd because the procedures they are preforming are orthopedic based, not pain management based by default.  Orthopedic doctors know through doing thousand of these operations, and have turned to different techniques and cutting edge alternatives.  So I feel that the knowledge of an orthopedic surgeon sticking a needle in me and understanding the function of the movements, the muscles, the nerves in the area, and an overall history of the practice is something that must be considered.

Also to be fair, I also looked into the regenerative clinic in mexico.  I have a phone call with Dr. Jesus who, apparently is a scheduler but has some mysterious DR. degree.  He stated that all the places in the US were doing this illegally, and I should never consider any place other then the regenerative clinic in mexico.  Obviously this is false.  I asked him how many procedures he did on my body part, and he said none.  But he was very confident in there ability to heal, for 8k.  I had a bit of a laugh.  That place is a joke.  I think they are charging something like 20k for procedures which they had one once or twice.

[manville]

Like any new product that hits the market it needs to be advertised so the general public knows it's out there, correct? How many Viagra commercials did you see when their product hit the market? I'm not looking to get into a debate here, those are just some of the questions that pop into my mind when you bash them for advertising. As far as the fees, if what you said is true, then that's not right and you should argue your case.

As a side note, I was doing some more research and came across a product that just got released to the public in South Korea. Cartistem is the name. I couldn't find to much info but it does look promising. Something to keep an eye on at least.

Another good read is this...http://www.journalofprolotherapy.com/free_issue_11/issue_11_03_stem_cell_regenerative_medicine/issue_11_stem_cell_regenerative_medicine_01.php

Also to be fair, yes, this pricing issue is what started to make my water boil.  Its very shady of a company to bait you in and then switch you like that.  But being someone who studied marketing and has a full understanding of being a CEO in a company, I started to see all the signs of this marketing beast they have created.  The doctor which i have found, is the opposite of this clinic, and has seems to be less involved in making money and more involved in helping people.  I believe if the results are there, the marketing is not needed.  This procedure is so revolutionary, if it works, that the marketing will do itself. 

So when it comes to regenexx, it leads me to believe that they dont have a good formula yet for this procedure, and they are marketing so heavily to get "clinical Trialists" to pay them to increase their testing and improve their results.  By contrast, the doctor I have found(which I dont want to name until later) has 6 years of proven track record of this procedure as well as 30 years as a board certified orthopedic surgeon.  But yet, you dont hear much about this guy, because he said hes not in it for the money and he gets most of his patients through sports and doctor referrrals due to his success rate.  He also does things that regenexx doesn't do, and doesnt believe some of the things that regenexx does are actually worth the money, such as PRP before the procedure.  He believe they are just guessing that PRP pre procedure does anything, and as he says, PRP actaully comes out of the stem cell procedure, so why do it before.  Its not activating anything because the fun doesnt begin until you start with the actual stem cells, and PRP after is what they shoot for.  Anyways....just some thoughts after 5 months of self research.

[Affliction79]

Hi Manville,
thanks for your info on regenexx. I am very interested in finding out who is doing stem cell therapy for you now. This is my first post, so I can't figure out how to pm you. Would you be able to send me some info on this doctor of yours. That would be awesome! Thank you

[The KNEEguru]

Hi
PM has been inactivated for new users, until they have 20 posts. This is to avoid harassment via PM by spam bots. Feel free to go to the 'games' section and pay a few of the very easy word games, and you will soon have your 20 posts and be able to use PM.
KNEEguru

[slyguy1]

Manville.....thanks for sharing your experience. I pointed out the 60 minutes piece on stem cell scams that aired several weeks ago awhile back. The more the info that is now coming out the more skeptical i am about the whole stem cell procedure....reality dictates that it sounds promising but scientists are at least 10 years away from proving anything (this is coming from a research scientist i've spoken to). The FDA doesn't shut them down for no apparent reason. I hope you did not pay all that money that you say they asked for....the hidden fees:) If money is no object like the professional baseball player A-rod i would go to Germany .

[Sturge08]

I must admit, I wasn't expecting in my telephone consultation with a Regenexx doctor, finding out that on top of the -sd injection I would need to pay for prelim PRP injections and a recommended -scp injection after. Not to mention paying for IMS injections, an ankle brace, registry to ICMS, infared gadget and daily supplements. Perhaps all these likely costs should be outlined in Regenexx's procedures explained page. It certainly would of cushioned the blow when I found out these costs during my telephone consultation. I hope this helps anyone planning a phone call.

[manville]

I must admit, I wasn't expecting in my telephone consultation with a Regenexx doctor, finding out that on top of the -sd injection I would need to pay for prelim PRP injections and a recommended -scp injection after. Not to mention paying for IMS injections, an ankle brace, registry to ICMS, infared gadget and daily supplements. Perhaps all these likely costs should be outlined in Regenexx's procedures explained page. It certainly would of cushioned the blow when I found out these costs during my telephone consultation. I hope this helps anyone planning a phone call.

Im happy to see that I was not the only one who felt this way.  It was very snake oil salesmenish. And for the other poster, If my procedure goes well, ill post the doctor and information so that everyone can read and make a decision for themselves in the very near future.  Id give it 3-4 weeks time.  I dont feel right promoting a doctor, while I might think it is all gravy, might end up not working in the first place.

Also Id like to point out the fact that with regenexx, I had my initial consult with one of their outside providers.  When I decided to go to the Colorado location for speed of procedure, I asked them several time to speak with their doctors so they could confirm my diagnoses their partners confirmed, as well as a few other questions.  They blindly refused to allow me to talk to any doctors, and consistently called my via a business manager who wanted me to pay another 500 dollar deposit for the bone marrow collection.  He specifically knew I requested to talk to the doctor, but yet he blindly ignored the fact and told me he was the contact on this.  I hope this thread spreads so that people are fully aware of what they are getting themselves into with this clinic and there are no surprises.

[mccartjt]

I have just read the recent posts and I've recently had messages from Saverio one of Dr Centeno's early patients & he is doing well from three years ago. I had issues that were beyond Dr Centeno's ability to fix. Some one gave me a "Hashish brownie" and there went my $20k + the time flights hotel stays car rentals etc.

Here's a couple of facts I was doing good with Regenexx C before the brownie. Since my procedure I am only slightly worse than I was but that may be due to 2-3 years of aging and the "Brownie".
 1)  Dr Saw, in Kuala Lumpur has second look arthroscopy results of his style of this procedure showing it works. He does a modified microfracture + peripheral blood stem cells injections.
 2)Dr Centeno gives you lidocaine injection to rough up inside the knee and make it sticky (injection microfracture?) +  bone marrow derived stem cells.

Dr Saw and Dr Centeno each have their way of trying to do the same thing. Both too have a way of qualifying their results. Dr Saw can look inside the knee. Dr Centeno goes by the follow up registry that tells him whether his patients are improving over time.

There may yet be another methodolgy soon derived from Dr Heber-Katz and what she's working on. http://healthjournalclub.com/the-mice-that-regrow-toes/ On a personal note I've found Dr Centeno and his clinic to honest and fair. I have had no experience of Dr Saw. I hope that this helps..

One final thing. Dr Saw's work has shown that it takes a long time to grow back the cartiliage into a knee. Realistically over a year to get full thickness from a grade IIII lesion to perfect from what I've read..

[NickCat11]

Hey manville,

I'd like to ask you some questions off topic. If you don't mind, shoot me an email. No problem if you choose not to. Thanks.

[bananzaboy]

Hi Guys

I have met Dr Saw & he is a gent. He thinks he can help me but told me straight up that it would take £20K+ & a 6wk stay in KL. I know he isn't in it for the money, there was absolutely no pressure on me. The results from his study should be published by the end of 2012.

I have only had minimal contact with Regenexx so I can't comment that much. However I don't think I'll go that route. That's just my opinion- they could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, I can't say. We have to understand that it is a business after all but the "hidden charges " thing is just wrong.

At the end of the day stem cell therapy is still very experimental. Even if it definitely works, no one can tell if there could be problems down the line - it is just too new. We can't blame the FDA for being cautious. Can you imagine if they turned a blind eye & there was an issue down the line? They would get absolutely crucified! They are there to protect public health & that's what they're doing. It is easy for us to become frustrated with this because we are all very desperate to get relief.

The data on stem cell therapy are not robust enough..........yet. Eventually they will be but some of us obviously can't wait. I need a TKR very soon unless I try something else so it may be worth giving it a go. Trials like Dr Saw's will obviously help.

I am also aware that Dr Kevin Lee in Singapore is currently conducting a trial. His protocol is similar to Dr Saw's (Dr Lee actually pioneered it) but he uses MSCs as opposed to PBCs.

Keep sharing experiences & info guys, we're all in the same boat!