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Author Topic: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells  (Read 229177 times)

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Offline ashok_guru

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #315 on: October 17, 2011, 05:39:47 PM »
WestPoint, What was the time gap between your first and second Regenexx injections ? Am wondering whether to go for second injections or to wait for some more time to see some improvement in my knee condition. As Rob mentioned we would need 3-4 Regenexx injections, if that is the case each time we need to have a bone marrow extraction which would be more painful and also bit expensive. am yet to decide on the second round of injections.

Am also considering Dr. Allan Dunn's Iagh [http://www.iagh.com] treatment. I think Irentat and Rob had success with Dunn's approach. I already had a telephone conservation with Dr.Dunn but yet to decide on whether to go with Dr.Dunn or with Regenexx. Its been two month since I had Regenexx-SD, I dont see any considerable improvement....not sure if I have to wait for some more time. Meanwhile continuing with Physical therapy.
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline WestPoint

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #316 on: October 17, 2011, 07:02:58 PM »
I have not tried the SD treatment, so I'm not in a position to talk about the treatment that you are presently receiving. However, I am receiving the original Regenexx C version in a foreign country. Although I am not receiving Dr. Centeno's holistic approach to treating knee problems, I can say that the technology does work. I am reserving judgement beyond that generalization as I have just today received my third and perhaps last set of injections. So, I need a bit of time to really judge the whole thing, but I can say that the Regenexx technology being offered is amazing (I have seen signs of that), and from what I can read in Dr. Centeno's blogs, his holistic approach to medicine is also quite something.

Not to knock the other doctor you have mentioned, but his site does not document cases in the way that Dr. Centeno does.

Have you thought about going to their Cayman Islands clinic? I believe that you would be getting the same type of treatment you would in Colorado, as it is run by them. This would grant you exposure to the Regenexx C version.


Offline MS_Enigma

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #317 on: October 19, 2011, 02:52:54 PM »
Hey All
There is Dr Thomas Einhorn, chief of Boston University surg Ortho
THey use the BMAC. A german publlication advocates BMAC, they indicated good results. I will also be talking with California Stem Cell TReatment center in their new offices in Beverly Hills (Dr. Tom Grogan). I will be on the webinar for Regenexx today. what ot do what to do?!

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #318 on: October 21, 2011, 06:51:49 PM »
PT seems to be helping my case, am slowly regaining strength on my knee, hip etc.
Yesterday tried to walk with full weight bearing without crutch, the pain seems to be not there.
From next week I have to practice walking without crutches, I have been using them for more than 2 years so forgot how to walk normally  ;D. am bit excited...may be I have to wait few more weeks to see if this holds good. Will update my progress here in my next post.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 07:03:11 PM by ashok_guru »
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline SW71

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #319 on: October 22, 2011, 12:07:27 PM »
Hi everyone,

I know the topic of this thread is Regenexx, but I just wanted to make readers aware of alternatives to just stem cells alone. Dr Saw in Malaysia has been combining stem cells with microfracture and hyaluronic acid and has been achieving hyaline cartilage generation in at least some of the 300+ patients he has treated. See the post

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=56883.0

plus also

http://www.klsmc.com/in-the-news/insights/98-articular-cartilage-regeneration-with-autologous-peripheral-blood-progenitor-cells-and-hyaluronic-acid-after-arthroscopic-subchondral-drilling-a-report-of-5-cases-with-histology

Note the assessment of cartilage quality is done on only a handful of patients because it has been assessed by second look arthroscopy so doesn't happen that often. By his own acknowledgement at the end of his paper, the study is small (tiny) and uncontrolled, but it looks promising. One thing I do like about the study is that the inclusion criteria includes grade III/ IV defects of any size and number and including patients with maltracking or ligamentous instability - I like this because many studies suggesting something works are often done with half the population or more excluded from participating.

Don't get me wrong, I've done plenty of reading on stem cells and as far as I'm concerned the science is sound and well studied in academia and there's now a decent amount of clinical evidence that it works as well. So if I had to choose a first step I'd probably still choose stem cells alone because it just easier on the patient (us). However, it makes some sense that a surgical + stem cell approach could work better than stem cells alone, so I thought I'd post this here in case others hadn't read the post I refer to above. Actually I'd be interested in any doctors' opinions - any takers?
1984 L patello-femoral recon
1985 R patello-femoral recon
2005 R TTT + LR
2006 L TTT + LR
2011 Grade IV retro patellar lateral trochlear chondral defects, currently using PRP

Offline bananzaboy

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #320 on: October 24, 2011, 08:43:05 PM »
Hi SW17

It all depends. If someone has a small defect or tear in the cartilage then stem cells on their own may do the job OK. However I have grade IV bone on bone in the medial compartment and cystic changes. Basically I'm virtually at TKR stage but am only 31.
  I think my arthritis is too far advanced for Regenexx to help but Dr Saw's method looks as if it could buy me time. if I'm going to spend a lot of money, with time off work, travel & rehab then I'm going to give myself the best chance i.e. go for the best that's out there.

I have met Dr Saw & he isn't in it for money- he genuinely wants to help people & make a difference to their lives. He is quite passionate about it & is rightly proud of his work. Interestingly the Regenexx website has a link to an article showing stem cells + micro fracture is better than micro fracture alone albeit it is in horses http://www.regenexx.com/2011/01/micro-fracture-plus-stem-cells-better-than-micro-fracture-alone/.

A lot of Drs would say that data on stem cell therapy are not robust enough yet. However I have no doubt that it's the future & will probably be used everywhere in about ten years. I don't have time to wait on good quality trial data to be published. For me it's potential benefit v potential risk & for me the see-saw is weighed heavily in one direction.


Offline SW71

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #321 on: October 25, 2011, 03:24:16 AM »
I agree with your assessment Bananzaboy re stem cells alone vs stem cells plus surgery. There won't be a universal single treatment that works best every time, so often stem cells alone will suffice but for some a combined (or altogether alternative) approach will be more appropriate.

I also agree that most doctors current believe there is not enough evidence that stems cells is effective and safe. However, in my personal opinion this view held by many doctors is mostly because they have not been well enough informed.

Here in Australia there is very little choice when it comes to stem cells. I've seen a few posts in the past from Australia on this topic, so for those in Australia looking for this sort of treatment, the only ones that I know of are

http://www.lakesidesmc.com.au/specialty-services/osteoarthritis/ - Dr Bates
http://203.45.23.64/msc/DiseasesTreated.aspx - Dr Bright
http://www.southsydneysportsmedicine.com.au/ - Dr Gibbs.

My understanding is that Dr Bates is the most experienced at the stem cells procedure. I am currently seeing Dr Gibbs for PRP injections. Hope this helps anyone in Australia.

The PRP is going ok. Actually I didn't expect anything from it, but was just prepared to try this before surgery. It has certainly helped the pain and ROM, but I wouldn't call it great either. However, it was a better response that I expected so it gives me hope that stem cells might help for me, I will probably go to see Dr Bates.

If stem cells doesn't work then I am seriously considering going to Malaysia to see Dr Saw, because like you I am pretty young (40). While I am not in considerable pain, my view is that if I really want to avoid TKR plus continue some reasonable degree of physical activity then I need to make sure it doesn't progress much more than what it is today.

1984 L patello-femoral recon
1985 R patello-femoral recon
2005 R TTT + LR
2006 L TTT + LR
2011 Grade IV retro patellar lateral trochlear chondral defects, currently using PRP

Offline Stonie

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #322 on: November 07, 2011, 08:35:10 PM »
Hi all,
I posted a new thread for the first time this morning, but was referred over here. I’ve read all the posts and greatly appreciate all the helpful information.  In early December, I’m going to travel to Denver to have the Regenexx AD procedure on my left knee.  I’d love to hear from some of you that have had either the Regenexx AD or SD.  It sounds like the Regenexx C is not offered in the US for now….so I’d like to compare with others getting the same or similar treatment to mine.  Can you please share:
What procedure did you have done?
How long ago?
Would you do it again?
What type of improvement did you experience or not?
Did it hurt?
What sort of things brought relief?
Did the infrared heating pad device help?
Anything else you think I should know?

I will be happy to experience even a 25% to 50% improvement in daily living as a result of the procedure.   Two years ago I experienced a bucket handle tear of the left lateral meniscus.  My surgeon removed most of my left meniscus during the surgery, even so it was repairable, telling me that at age 50, I’d need a knee replacement anyway.  Terrific guy, huh. I do have stage 3 to 4 chondromalacia or osteo arthritis.    After two rounds of PT and 2.5 years, I still have almost daily pain of some sort.  Synvex does help for about 4 months at a time. I can walk but not run.  I’d really appreciate hearing about your experience.  I’m three weeks away and feeling a little scared. 


Offline Sturge08

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #323 on: November 08, 2011, 09:08:20 AM »
Hi Stonie

I had a regenexx-sd injection 8 weeks ago into my sub talar and ankle joint. Sadly I haven't experienced any pain relief from the procedure. My bone marrow draw and ligament, tendon injections hurt me the most. I have stopped using the infrared device now, I remember it was comfortable when using it. A week after you'll experience pain from injection sites but this will all gradually go. Good luck and report back in the new year with your progress.

Offline kneeguy

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #324 on: November 08, 2011, 12:25:44 PM »
Hi Stonie,

After almost a year of going back and forth and reading this blog I had the AD procedure October 4, on my left knee.  Prior to that I had 3 surgeries to "clean out" my knee.  After the first two I was still unable to run but could do most everything else.  I hooked up with a reahb doc who got me running and back to triathlons and everything was going well until last fall (2010) and I ended up with another "clean out" November 2010.  Things have been going well since but in an effort to get me back to regular activities and hopefully avoid a 4th surgery in the future I decided to try this.

The exam and procedure was a lot more then I expeceted...they were very thorough.  There is a lot of good information here but some deatils I did not know of until I met with Dr. Shultz.  It took 6 marrow draws to get the required cells.  I thought it would be 2, so when he told me 6, I started to sweat it a bit.  The draws is what I thought would hurt most but I really didnt feel anything just the pressure of him pressing down.  The most painful part was the re-injection of fat aspiration to push my meniscus back in place.  Other then that it was realtively painless....I expected and was anticipating a lot more.  The first niht after I was pretty sore and swollen but flew back home the next evening with no problems.  I had a limp and was swollen for a couple days to a week or so. 

I think the heating pad is to help the cells grow not to keep the pain down...as far as that goes I am not sure just yet if it has worked since I am less then 4 weeks out.  My activity level is pretty good now, I am swimming and riding my bike 40 mins or so.  I have been taking it slow out of being cautious...I could probably go more on both.  I am also walking fine now.  Another thing I did not know about was the brace.  I guess not eveyone needs it.  I had to wear it 24, 7 the first 2 weeks and it was difficult sleeping.  The 2nd 2 weeks I only wear during the day then after that I wear it 3 months for weight bearing activities.  The supplements they recommend are pricey but when you pay for the procedure you  might as well go all the way.  Pick them up while you are there...I didnt since I was on what the recommended already.   

I can't say if I have improved yet since I am still wearing the brace and limiting my activities.  However, my knee would sometimes be locked up sort of when I woke or sat for a while.  That problem seems to have subsided or is less frequent then it used to be.  I feel pretty good walking most of the time (before the procedure I was doing well and almost put it off) so I am not sure if thats a real improvement. 

I cannot start running until after 6 weeks from the procedure which will be around November 25.  Before the procedure you need to refrain from all NSAIDS, steroid meds and all sorts of other things for several weeks.  So you will need to work that into your schedule if you are on them.

Thats about all I got for now...good luck. 

Offline Stonie

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #325 on: November 09, 2011, 02:07:42 AM »
Sturge08 and kneeguy,

Thank you very much for your reply and comments.  I so appreciate your taking the time to share your recent experiences.  I asked Centeno for two references and neither one ever got back to me.  Sort of got me spooked a bit.  I wonder what I should read into their silence.

Kneeguy, they did tell me that the fat graft would be the most painful part.  Good to hear the marrow draw wasn’t so bad, as that part gives me the most trepidation.  I know what you mean about almost cancelling because sometimes my knee isn’t so bad.  But then a bad day keeps me determined to move forward.  As long as no harm is done, the only thing to lose is money (not to minimize the cost).  If I don’t try Regenexx, I will always wonder.  With a knee replacement, there is no running, lunging, squatting or kneeling and no going back.  My hope is that Regenexx will allow me to get back into yoga….to ski again would just be divine.  Now that I’m sending up my wishes, walking up and down stairs without pain and a lumbering gait would be great, too!  I was encouraged after reading an earlier post by the guy who is back to playing singles tennis.   

Sturge08 and kneeguy, I wish you both successful recoveries.  Now that I’ve found this board, I will repay your kindness someday and hope that I have a good experience to share.  Take Care  Oh, one more quick question….about the brace….did it fit comfortably under dress pant legs….how about jeans? 

Offline Sturge08

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #326 on: November 09, 2011, 09:01:20 AM »
My brace was very uncomfortable, i just couldn't wait to not have to wear it. My brace was worn around my ankle, I can't speak regarding the knee braces.

I was given a reference of someone to contact by Regenexx, and their reference person didn't respond to my emails either. Don't let this put you off.

Regenexx are the guys to trust, go for it. If they don't help you this time around, they continue to develop their techniques so eventually one day they will. That's what I keep telling myself. Avoid the knee replacement as best you can and good luck. I know the money is a worry, I flew over from the UK for the treatment, so I had to pay for international flights and none of the pre evaluations were paid for by my insurance. I think you've got it cheaper compared to me.

Offline kneeguy

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #327 on: November 09, 2011, 12:23:36 PM »
Yes the brace does fit fine under jeans and dress pants.  I will be happy to get rid of it too.  I forgot to mention the cost of it...they said it would be $1200-2000 dollars if my insurance did not cover it.  Luckily it did....its custom fit and they had to have it flown in over night for me.  As far as the rest of the cost, I guess I was lucky because I really only paid for the stem cell procedure out of pocket, my insurance picked up the office visits, consult and all the regular doc stuff.  My surgeon from last year and another doctor also said....I had nothing to loose but the money so I might as well try it.  Easy for them to say, but as with you if I did not try it I would be wondering.  My knee, they told me, was not as bad as most they see and I am a bit younger...so hopefully that will equate to improved chances of success.

I was bruised on my back a bit from the draw and it was sore like a bruise for 2-3 weeks.  It was bearable and in the begining only hurt when I first sat down but went away after the initial pain.  After the first 5 days or so I only noticed it occasionally.

Offline prefersdosequis

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #328 on: December 07, 2011, 06:06:15 PM »
This is my first post in this thread. I am very pleased to have found this discussion as I have learned so much regarding the work being done with stem cells. I too am in the process of evaluating Regenexx to help my troubled left knee. Should I go through with the procedure I will be sure to post all of the details on this forum. I am currently in the process of accumulating my complete medical file and latest MRI to send off to Regenexx for an initial evaluation to see whether I am a candidate. I thought I would post the details of my condition here in advance of that to see if someone with a similar problem might be able to offer me any confirmation that Regenexx will work for me.

Almost two years ago (4/2/2010) I had a skiing accident where my ski did not release when I fell. I bent the ski in the process and unfortunately all the torque went directly through my knee. My initial self diagnosis was that I had a medial meniscus tear. Having had a previous labral tear in my hip fixed by an arthroscopic procedure, I wasn't too worried about the long term outlook of returning to sport (specifically long distance running). However, my MRI did not reveal any damage to the medial meniscus even though this was the location of all my pain. After three months of physical therapy and no results I decided to return to the OS for an investigatory arthroscope (7/6/2010) believing that the MRI must have missed the tear. In surgery the OS found a lateral tear (even though there was no pain on the lateral side) and a medial plica. After four months of PT I was still unable to return to running as I had hoped. I could run short distances of 3-5 miles at a 10 minute pace with tenderness in my medial meniscus and little to no pain in the days that immediately followed. However, where I really noticed a problem is when I would string four of these 3 mile runs together over a two week period. After running this way for two weeks my medial meniscus would hurt terribly all the time. The pain would grow sharper if I sat the wrong way, and walking or standing for long periods of time exacerbated the pain. Long periods of inactivity is the only thing that brought relief to my knee.

I sought a second MRI, this time a 3.0 tesla MRI with contrast. The MRI revealed a faint intrameniscal signal in the posterior horn of the medial meniscus. Overall impression was an intrasubstance tear and/or myxoid-type degeneration in the medial meniscus. After googling these terms I concluded that, while the external shape and appearance of the medial meniscus was normal, the internal structure was not sound. I visited multiple OS's in the Los Angeles area with this new information, but none of them considered me a candidate for a meniscectomy. The next thing I tried was a PRP injection into my medial meniscus (2/9/2011). I did not notice a marked improvement from this procedure.

After sometime passed and no relief in sight I decided to reach out to the Steadman Hawkins Clinic in Vail. I went out there this past September for an evaluation with the possibility of a next day surgery. In Vail I had another MRI (1.5 tesla) which revealed minimal mucinous degeneration within the body segment and posterior horn of the medial meniscus, without evidence of a discrete linear meniscal tear. While not mentioned in the MRI, the OS did also see a tear in the posterior portion of the medial meniscus. As I was having sharper pain in the posterior portion we agreed that I was a candidate for a menisectomy to remove this tear. Surgery was preformed (9/22/2011) and the posterior portion of the meniscus was trimmed, while leaving the bulk of the meniscus intact.

It is now two and half months out from my last surgery and I have slowly returned to activity through PT. While I agree that it may be too early to tell, I am still having a great degree of pain in my medial meniscus. The pain seems mostly unchanged, with severe pain coming after a series of four short runs in consecutive weeks. The pain does not subside for at least three to five weeks of inactivity.

Okay so that is the blow by blow on my condition. I apologize if that was too much detail. After reading this blog and seeing how many folks have had their meniscus's shaved away without providing much relief I am seriously not wanting any more arthroscopic work done on my knee. What I am hoping for is that I might be a good candidate for the Regenexx procedure considering that I have a large portion of my medial meniscus intact, albeit very damaged internally. Additionally, from reading the Regenexx literature it appears the stem cell injection will introduce the much needed "general contractors" of healing, which will rebuild the damaged portion of my meniscus.

If anyone has any insight after reading what I have said I would greatly appreciate to hear from them. Also, I would also like to hear from Saverio and mccartjt. I know that both of you have had some success from the procedure, and we haven't had an update from either of you two in a while as to how your recovery has progressed.

Well, thanks again to everyone who has posted to this forum. And thank you for taking the time to read my post.
Sincerely,
Travis

Offline andyhart

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #329 on: December 07, 2011, 10:24:47 PM »
Travis,

Who did your surgery in Vail? If you had surgery there (one of the top places in the world) and you're having problems you should go back there for their advice FIRST. It's very difficult to be your own doctor.

I have the opposite story. I tried to be own doctor, underwent several Regenexx SD procedures and am now scheduled to have surgery next month performed by Dr. Steadman. I have a lot of reflections about the Centeno-Schultz clinic. The main relevant point here is that I had the sense that I was mostly looked at as a data point for the study of the use of Regenexx SD on meniscus tears. I strongly suspect that their cultured procedure may actually help heal certain kinds of tears (but certainly not all types), but that the SD just may not be effective in a lot of cases. Above all things they are a small business enterprise and won't often turn away a customer. The fact that Dr. Centeno himself trolls this BBS in order to defend the clinic or make clarifications should tell you a few things. I went and saw Dr. Stone in San Francisco as well. He also has a lot of slick marketing like Centeno-Schultz. The Steadman Clinic doesn't need to do this kind of stuff and it would unthinkable to find any doctor from there on these forums trying to protect their reputation or drum up new business.

I'm not trashing Centeno-Schultz because certain other procedures they did may have helped me in other areas. However, they are learning their craft. If you want to be part of the experiment it's only your money and time that might be wasted. Just try and have a realistic view of things and don't be caught up in marketing hype.















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