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Author Topic: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells  (Read 223777 times)

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Offline WestPoint

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2011, 07:45:47 AM »
Question: When going for a second round of injections, do you have to limit your actions to walking and bicycling in the same way as the first injection, or can you continue doing higher impact activities?

Also, would love to hear any more updates from old or new patients.


Offline telemarkerSteve

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #286 on: July 26, 2011, 05:32:03 PM »
So since people having Regenexx and then not posting is somehow alleged to be evidence against these guys  - don't follow this by the way apparently they are being accused of making up lots of fake logins, posting they are going to have the procedure, then forgetting to make fake posts about how it worked for them?? - I felt compelled to post about my Regenexx SD results.

Going in I had two symptomatic issues:
 - perpetual inflammation
 - catching sensations in the knee
plus an MRI showing fissures in my trochlear groove and a full thickness defect in the lateal tibial condyle.

The knee in question has had a lot of work done since a traumatic injury in 2007 (ACL replaced, osteochondral allograft to fill in hole left by Obi bone plug which failed after being put in by famous ass-clown knee surgeon, etc).  The catching sensation and the inflammation both date from that osteochondral allograft surgery in the fall of 2009.  At that time neither the tibial defect nor the fissures were present, so it's entirely clear  how connected they are to those MRI detected issues.  The are probably related to the inflammation, but I am less sure about the catching which might be more of a proprioreceptive issue, rather than related to cartilage damage (my OS says that my patellar tracking was normal at the time of the surgery when I was anesthetized).  I had little to no pain.

I decided to try out Regenexx-SD in Feb.  My knee got huge from variety of injections and so it was difficult to compare before and after for about 6 weeks when the swelling was mostly gone again.  BTW during those 6 weeks, I rode my bike trainer 20 - 40 mins every morning and evening, so I didn't really feel like it was that hard maintain some decent leg strength or cardio fitness. 

At 6 weeks I went back to groomer skiing and by 10 weeks, I was back to pretty much full on backcountry skiing and pretty agressive inbounds skiing.  I was still using an unloader brace for all athletic activities and at that point was super-optimistic because with the brace I had no catching and little inflammation, but since I wasn't wearing the brace before it was hard/unfair to compare.   When biking season rolled around, I finally started exercising with no brace and I found the catching issues similar to before the procedure, but the inflammation greatly reduced. 

I saw my operating OS for the allograft for a follow-up and talked him into a follow-up MRI about 10 weeks post Regenexx.  There was no real evidence of cartilage regrowth on the MRI but he did say it looked "slightly better" than a year ago in terms of graft integration and cartilage irritation.  Frankly, I was happy to be the same or slightly better since the previous 3 years, every MRI I had showed a fresh problem that wasn't there "last time". 

Based on the "slightly improved MRI" and much improved inflammation, I opted to have a second round Regenexx-SD in late June.  I am now 5 weeks post procedure, the knee swelling is down to it's all-time low since the original injury, I still have the catching and I am biking moderately hard but otherwise only walking in the brace and swimming.


Bottom lines:
 - no negatives
 - only positive I regard as clear is substantially reduced inflammation
 - some positive MRI news but no meaningful cartilage regrowth (of course that's < 3 mos post 1st SD injection, not 6 mos post last C injection, which is the scenario for which they make some claims)
 - no pain before, no pain after, so same there (which is better than I can say for any surgery I've had)
 
So no miracle, but I'm happy enough.

BTW i think it's worth pointing out that
 - the Regenexx guys have published more clinical stem cell stuff than anyone else
 - their effectiveness study route kind of got rudely interupted when the government decided to try to classify the C procedure as a drug, so they couldn't collect any more data that was comparable to their old data - hard to blame them for that
 - no one is publishing controlled double blind studies showing stem cell effectiveness period
 - in so far as people are publishing such studies for "standard" orthopedic procedures like meniscectomies, it's fairly recent that they are doing so and they aren't producing clear cut effectiveness results




Offline WestPoint

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #287 on: July 26, 2011, 09:01:46 PM »
Thanks Steve,

Sounds good. People seem to react differently, and as long as there is some improvement, that's a good sign.

Since I will be going for my second injection, could you inform me as to whether we need to stick to the walking and bicycling only for one month for the second injection too, or whether that is only for the first injection. That is, can I continue to do other high impact activities after the second injection, or do I need to stick to the original walking and biking for one month program?

Thanks...

 

Offline telemarkerSteve

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #288 on: August 01, 2011, 10:58:38 PM »
I got the same advice for the second injection as the first:

 - for a few days:  do as little as possible (even limiting walking with unloader brace - some stationary biking OK)
 - from then to about two weeks:  walk up to 1 hr per day with unloader brace; biking, swimming and elliptical (last with brace) are OK
 - from 2-6 weeks:  unlimited walking with brace but still no impact sports; ok to up intensity some on biking/swimming/elliptical
 - 6 weeks+ : ease back into everything but wear brace for all impact activities (no longer need to wear for walking + elliptical)

I definitely got the impression that this is "best practice" but by no means known to be exactly correct.  For example, if you are getting noticeable inflammation you would want to back off from whatever was causing that, even if above says it is allowed.  If you have no inflammation and discomfort, you could definitely consider being more aggressive in consultation with your doc.   I tried skiing groomers in my 4th week.  Didn't like how it felt and stopped, but did start up again in week 5 when that felt comfortable and didn't cause noticeable inflammation.

For the easing back, they suggest adding about 20% intensity per week for 5 weeks, so back to full on around 11 weeks.

YMMV

Offline WestPoint

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #289 on: August 03, 2011, 01:07:31 PM »
Thanks Steve for the information.

How are you feeling now?

Offline telemarkerSteve

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #290 on: August 13, 2011, 09:06:49 PM »
The knee is feeling really good. 

I had pretty minor symptoms so it's hard to say how much improvement but inflammation is definitely down and the knee feels good.  The catching issues are also a lot better since I started swimming 3x a week.  I think that has affected the proprioreceptive issues rather than "real" things like muscle development or joint structure, but better is better.

For the summer I decided to go with road biking as my main sport, since it's supposedly so knee friendly and that is going well.  The knee definitely isn't holding me back, even on the steep climbs that call for a fair amount of power.

I am too busy this fall to squeeze in 2 Cayman islands visits, so I am holding off on a third round until I either have travel time or can get Regenexx C here in the US again.

Offline sbstritt

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #291 on: August 18, 2011, 06:34:11 PM »
i just returned to this thread and wanted to say thanks to Scooter (btw not Dr Centeno and nice guy) and another gentleman who told me about their experience with regenexx. I'm off to Denver on Monday and will post my experience.

Offline telemarkerSteve

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #292 on: September 14, 2011, 03:43:24 AM »
Apparently as a micro-geek I can't PM or even reply to PM's, so I am posting here a response to a question someone PM-ed me about Regenexx and biking during rehab:

In my case, I was told to wear the brace for elliptical or while biking IF I was going to stand up in the peddles.  That was for 6 weeks post op.  Since I found the brace too irritating for biking, I rode without it but avoided hills that might require me to stand on the pedals.  After 6 weeks I eased back into riding things that made more demands.

As usual, YMMV


Offline Sturge08

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #293 on: September 23, 2011, 05:36:23 PM »
Hi, I too have just come back from the Regenexx clinic in the usa. I was under the care of Dr Ron hnason, he treated my ankle for OA. I know this the kneeguru website but, trust me their isn't many websites which call for post injection results for stem cell ankle joint injections. I came away with a fairly positive outlook. I have found it odd that I was allowed to walk out of the clinic and bear weight so soon after both injections, I also have had no further contact from the clinic since. I guess its a case now of wait and see. It's a week since the injection and so far joint swelling and pain levels are just the same as pre injection. I will update my progress as the months pass.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 11:15:27 AM by Sturge08 »

Offline slyguy1

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #294 on: September 27, 2011, 02:44:44 PM »
At the beginning i was just as curious as anyone else out there about stem cell research.....but after reading about other people's experience and talking to an OS who is a family friend....i think i'll hold onto my dollars on this one. Microfracture also uses stem cells but forms a matrix.....people heal differently due to genetics....if stem cells actually generated new cartlige formation....every doctor on the planet would be doing it. Don't know if anyone watched  minutes segment on stem cell scams where vulnarable quadrupeligic spent life savings after doctor promised he would walk out of hospital.....felt so bad for that poor patient....watch for those scamming doctors

Offline Sturge08

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #295 on: September 28, 2011, 09:52:51 AM »
Microfracture does use stem cells but not as many as Regenexx procedures. Microfracture releases stem cells into the joint by drilling through the sub bone into the bone marrow in the already damaged joint. The Regenexx option is less invasive. As a former patient of Regenexx-sd I can say they aren't scam doctors, I went into an agreement to have the procedure knowing full well it may not work, I was not promised it would work. However I do wish they showed me more confidence rather than sitting on the fence so much. I feel there is room for improvement regarding their -sd procedure, perhaps some kind of 3d matrix to support cartilage regeneration. I would love for them to release more pre and post mri scans showing cartilage growth from patients. They claim they are treating approx 30 patients a month, surely with these numbers we could see on their blog a follow up patient with images once a month.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 11:11:34 AM by Sturge08 »

Offline ashok_guru

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #296 on: September 29, 2011, 10:02:10 PM »
I thought this is the time for me to share my Regenexx-SD experiences here.

Regarding my Injury :

I had a cartilage damage due to intense sports activity in my right knee during July 2009. Since then I had two surgeries

         1. Partial Meniscetomy - Dec 2009 - 20-30% of medial mensicus was removed
         2. Cartilage debridement - Mar 2010 - 2X2 CM of cartilage in medial femoral condyle region of right knee was shaved off due to cartilage delamination.

I did not find any relief after the surgery, infact surgery made things worse. I was asked to use single crutch while walking since weight-bearing on the right knee became very difficult. As a result I've been using this crutches for the last 2 years.
Crutch usage made things to worsen more, my other joints were impacted as well because of this crutch, My hip, left shoulder, left knee, left hand wrist started to pain. Before my knee injury and surgery I was perfectly healthy and no other complaints

After long hard thought, decided not to undergo any further surgery and definitely don’t want to end up in getting a knee replacement surgery, so was looking for other alternate treatments for joint conditions and for regeneration of cartilage also ways to preserve the health of remaining medial meniscus.

To manage pain, I started with Acupunture, Acupressure for some time but that did not help with pain/swelling much.
In the knee Geeks forum, I was following the thread posted by GB and Irentat about Prolotherapy, PRP, HGH Injections http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEtalk/index.php?topic=46074.0

At this point I wanted to thank Irentat for sharing his experiences about IAGH injections that helped to regenerate cartilage in his ankle and also for answering all my questions and thanks to GB for sharing his experiences about prolotherapy and prolozone injections.

So I thought I would give that Prolo+PRP a try, after reviewing many prolotherapy doctors I chose Dr. Ross Hauser from Chicago he had good record and had treated many patients for many ortho conditions. So I decided to have my first prolotherapy by July 2010. I was advised by fellow knee geeks friends that I should try atleast 10-12 prolo injections on the joints to see some improvements. I live in New Jersey and was travelling to Chicago every month for this Prolotherapy injections.

Initially Dr. Hauser treated with regular prolotherapy with Dextrose solution and 2 I.U of HGH solutions, after 3 injections I did not see even 1-2% of improvement in my knee. So I  have requested him to do "Hackett-Hemwall Prolotherapy"
http://www.caringmedical.com/therapies/hackett_hemwall_prolotherapy.asp Which is nothing but Prolotherapy + PRP injections into the joints. I had 3 of those treatment for the next three months where the doctor injected PRP + HGH + Dextrose + Magnesium + Other Prolo solutions into my joints. Still did not find any improvements but decided to continue with the treatment, in subsequent injections doctor also added testosterone. So I had mixture of many solutions into my joints but no real improvements. That's when Dr. Hauser started treating patients with Bone Marrow Prolotherapy. I decided to try that so I had Bone Marrow drawn from my tibia bone and got injected into the damaged knee along with regular prolo injections, I had two of those Bone Marrow prolotherapy injections.

http://bonemarrowprolotherapy.com/video_direct_bone_marrow_aspiration_prolotherapy.html


Hmmm… Yes….Totally I think I had almost 10 Prolo + 4 PRP + 2 Bone Marrow prolotherapy Injections from Dr. Hauser. And also had three PRP injections from a local doctor [Dr.Sammy Masiri] in NJ but to be frank there was no real improvement in the last one year of trying all this. I forgot to mention I also tried Prolozone injection from a doctor  [Dr. Andrew Lipton] in PA. I  had almost 8 Prolozone Injections where they inject Ozone into the joints which is suppose to give pain relief.

In my last visit to chicago Dr. Hauser requested me to undergo the following tests

   1. Electrolyte panel
   2. Food sensitivity test
   3. Vitamin D Panel [25-OH vitamin D]
   4. Hormone Panel

He wanted to understand my body condition whether it is in anabolic state or pro-healing mode for natural healing with prolotherapy injections.

http://www.caringmedical.com/media_blog/Vitamin_D_and_Chronic_Pain.htm

The reports came out showing that I have low levels of Magnesium, very low levels of vitamin D and moderate levels of some hormones. He advised me to avoid certain foods for sometime, asked me to take some supplements and requested to apply Testosterone topical cream. As per Dr. Hauser advise am following very strict diet

1. Low GI diet for the past 4 months
2. Also avoiding foods containing wheat, soy, egg, gluten, sugar, processed foods, high fat contents, caffeine, carbonated drinks etc
3. Taking Mutlivitamins/MultiMinerals/Phyto Nutrients.
4. Maintaining body PH balance between 6.5 and 7.
5. Regularly doing Stationary bike twice for 25-40 minutes.
6. Stopped using ICE for swelling after prolotherapy and stated using INFRA-RED heating unit and TDP Light therapy lamp.

http://www.activeforever.com/p-1701-thermotex-infrared-heating-pad-platinum.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NCWW6U


These are the supplements list that am taking regularly.

  • Glucosamine/Chondrotin
  • Collagen Type I, II and III
  • Hyaluronic acid
  • Magnesium 500mg
  • Resvertrol 500mg
  • Vitamin C 1000mg as ascorbic acid
  • Krill Oil tablets
  • Vitamin D3 - 5000 I.U
  • DL-Alpha Lipoic acid 600mg.
  • Multivitamins/Multiminerals/
    Phytonutrients
  • WheatGrass/Barley Grass/Oat Grass
While I was doing all these, Parallely had set up a telephonic consulting with Regenexx. I spoke to Dr. Ron Hanson, sent all my medical reports/MRI and everything. Dr. Hanson rated me as a Good Candidate for the treatment.
But am not really convinced and comfortable to go ahead with regenexx treatment after telephone consulation so decided to have a in person consulation with Dr. Hanson, I travelled to Denver, met Dr. Hanson and he evaluated me thoroughly, answered all questions and suggested the following.

1. SFMA [Selective Functional Movement Accessment Technique] Evaluation, to understand the mobility of my joints
2. IMS [Intra muscular stimulation] for the joints
3. Regenexx-PL
4. Regenexx-SD
5. Regenexx-SCP.

After in person consulation I decided to go ahead with Regenexx Stem cell injections and had scheduled during August 2011.

I went to Denver and stayed in Broomfield for almost 10 days to complete the treatment. I really liked Dr. Ron Hanson, he was a very caring doctor answered all my questions during in person consulation and also all my email queries were promptly answered. Even small doubts/clarifications was prompty answered through email  despite his busy schedule. He took good care during bone marrow draw, Pre and Post Injections. In fact I passed out after bone marrow draw, and was unconscious for almost an hour. Am not writing this to scare anyone...bone marrow draw was totally painless, only the pressure of needly piercing the bone will be felt and nothing else. I passed out after bone marrow draw completion and when I tried to get up from the procedure table. Proper hydration of your body before the procedure will help, I did hydrated myself well by drinking enough fluids but still I passed out  ;D. May be I was weak after all those Low GI diet. ;)

After 10 days of my treatment I returned back to NJ and strictly followed the Post-Op instructions that was provided. I was advised to continue with the LOW GI diet.
4 weeks after Injections I was advised by Dr.Hanson to start PT using SFMA technique, and I have started PT since last week. Am into my 5th week now.

Result of the treatment :

After trying hard all these I haven't yet seen any marked improvement though am not sure if its bit early to decide on the efficacy of the treatment but there is little bit of improvement with weight bearing part thought am still walking with a crutch and also wearing the knee brace so I cannot be affirmative on this one.

But knee stiffness has gone down a bit though not completely, I had considerable swelling on my knee after the injections on top of the original swelling I had due to injury. Now after 5 weeks swelling due to injections was very much reduced but original swelling still persists. I think I have to wait some more time to make sure am on the right path to recovery. Due to last 2 years of crutch usage there are lots of stiffness on my hip, ankle and back and also considerable wastage of muscles in my quad, hamstring, hip region that inhibits my mobility.  My PT is working hard on these, I think I still have long way to go to regain my full strength back on these muscles and to walk normally

I also wanted to thank Scooter72 on this forum, who has offered some good advices by sharing his experiences and also for answering all my queries that helped me a lot and to remain confident during these tough times.

Quick Question :

Recently read somewhere, if you have lost chunk of meniscus on your knee due to meniscetomy surgery that is not good for Baby Cartilage or the newly regenerated cartilage. Also your knee will be in inflammed condition for the rest of our life reminding that our knee is not 100% alright. Is that true ?

2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline slyguy1

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #297 on: September 30, 2011, 02:09:04 AM »
interesting post.....again every person heals differently due to genetics.....i also have part of meniscus removed and i can tell you that the stability is at least 50 percent gone...not to scare you but those of us who have had such procedures are guranteed to have arthritis forever.....there is no cure for arthritis which is inflammatory in nature. Question came to mind as i replied here.....if stem cell injection is the answer....why are the professional athletes with knee problems galore opt to do that instead of microfraction or Aci? People with money in my opinion would not hesitate for a sec to get it if that was a sure thing.....

Offline rob wilson

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #298 on: September 30, 2011, 03:56:14 PM »
I had to have 3-5 Regenexx C injections to get significant improvement in my arthritic knee. I was able to get at least 6 Regenexx C injections from 1 bone marrow extraction. Now that the Regenexx C is not allowed that many Regenexx SD injections would mean the same number of extractions. That could be difficult and expensive. 

Maybe you should just continue to inject as much regenerative stuff (HGH, PRP, testerone, stem cells) into that knee and hope. If you can afford it?
1997-Bilateral debridement
1999-Lt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Rt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Lt knee scar
2002-Lt knee ACI biopsy+plica
2002-Lt knee medial condyle abrasion+HGH
2002-Lt knee scar
2003-Rt knee trochlea abrasion+HGH
2005-Lt knee plica
2008 to present-Regenexx

Offline Scooter72

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #299 on: September 30, 2011, 07:47:09 PM »
interesting post.....again every person heals differently due to genetics.....i also have part of meniscus removed and i can tell you that the stability is at least 50 percent gone...not to scare you but those of us who have had such procedures are guranteed to have arthritis forever.....there is no cure for arthritis which is inflammatory in nature. Question came to mind as i replied here.....if stem cell injection is the answer....why are the professional athletes with knee problems galore opt to do that instead of microfraction or Aci? People with money in my opinion would not hesitate for a sec to get it if that was a sure thing.....

Slyguy1, your question is a bit disingenuous for a couple of reasons:

1) Stem cell therapy for ortho conditions is relatively "new".  Exactly how many clinics around  the country do you see performing to the standards of Regenexx?  Answer: none (that I know of, at least).  Seriously man.. the FDA is still making Regenexx's existence a bit of hell, as they do for any novel therapy that has yet to pass into the mainstream.  That being said, there are many athletes that are catching on, and getting such treatment.  Of course, someone has to bring it to their attention first; it is not as if Regenexx nationally known, and barring awareness, these athletes will be funneled towards the "tried&true" modalities.

2) Relating to #1: There are MANY professional athletes who have been treated with one of the various Regenexx protocols.  I know this because I have been there, and seen the many autographed photos, and also asked (Drs. Hanson and Schultz). I would also guess there are many amateur athletes (myself included) who have been treated there as well. 

Just an FYI: My knee is still kicking, and I would do this procedure again if needed.  No question.  It beats mfx by 100 miles (speaking from personal experience).

Also, thanks for the kudos from people here with whom I conversed.  I really do want to help as I can.   Specifically to Ashok and Sturge08: I understand your frustrations over not feeling better at this point in your respective recoveries, but given what I know of your maladies, it is way too early to make any judgements, and in fact as I have stated prior, your diligence to rehab is as critical to a good result as the procedure itself.  I know it is difficult, but try to remain positive and focused.

Take care.