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Author Topic: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells  (Read 223937 times)

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Offline Saverio

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #240 on: September 12, 2010, 12:24:25 PM »
Large lesions in both lateral compartments.  There was also damage around my kneecaps.  I was in bad shape.

Offline poke

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #241 on: January 06, 2011, 09:38:53 PM »
Hello Lottie,
 Did you have the stem cell treatment ? If so how did you go?
  Regards Ian H
John,

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I've followed your responses to Regenexx with interest. I'm guessing the results are still going well for you?

I've been in touch with both X-Cell and Regenexx and am far more impressed with the latter. X-Cell are extremely keen to "sell" their product, and whilst I'm sure they do excellent work I feel more comfortable with the information, analysis, procedure and general approach that Regenexx seems to have. As you say, they use different methods that seem more firmly anchored in medicine and I like the conitnual improvement approach they advocate. Very early days with a lot to explore but I'm going to send my MRI and notes to Regenexx for their views. Its less money than 20 minutes with a scalpel happy UK surgeon! Given the current state of the pound, the treatment in the US works out at a very affordable rate (less than a private arthroscopy at the moment!!!) and even with flights to Denver its well within reach. I'm due a delayed honeymoon so perhaps Colarado might be in the offing in 2010!

Thanks again.

Lottie  :D
Quote

Offline men-at-arms

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #242 on: February 27, 2011, 02:29:36 AM »
I've been researching alternatives to TKR for over an year now and have spoken or contacted OS's in USA, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and China. The prevailing view is that there are technologies in development right now that are superior to MSC injections only. In particular, there is an on-going clinical trial being conducted by Taiwan University Hospital that combines stem cells and scaffolding then the cartilage is grown then transplanted into the knee. You can read the following article on cartilage repair, towards the end Taiwan University's work is mentioned:

http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=1622

It seems where most OS's I spoke with who are naysayers over MSC injection only approach cite that the lack of scaffolding will NOT result in total regenerated cartilage to replace damaged area where osteoarthritis condition exist. In my case, the tradition orthopedic advise has been that I wait 10 years or more for TKR (I'm 48 currently). I have had PRP injections to treat my knees, and so far that has yield enough "regeneration" where prior to PRP I could not ascend and descend staircases without pain and holding on to railings, whereas now I ascend and descend staircases without pain and without railings. I'm still taking a wait and see approach while tissue engineering work is on-going world-wide. I'm pretty confident that within 10 years, there will be a totally new approach that is widely accepted and approved such that for some cases of osteoarthritis TKR would be obsolete. But I believe Regenexx's work in MSC is the cutting edge and work like this needs to be done to prove MSC does regenerate worn cartilage. But without scaffolding implants, my conclusion is that MSC injection alone will not regenerate cartilage that has been completely worn away or surgically cut away. Furthermore, the ultimate goal is not just to regenerate cartilage but to yield the soft hyaline tissue to replace the natural tissue that has been damaged or worn away, and there seems to be questions herein as to what type of cartilage tissue is being regenerated -- is it the harder non-elastic scarring tissue versus the native slimy but firm and elastic hyaline tissue.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 01:50:10 PM by men-at-arms »

Offline Dr. Centeno

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #243 on: February 28, 2011, 03:40:18 PM »
This is Dr. Centeno. A few points to make on the injection vs. surgery dilemma rasied here in these posts. First, if you're lucky enough to have PRP work well to help maintain the cartilage in your knee, then if it were me I would stick with that approach. I've always been a big believer in the basic tenant of "if it aint broken, don't fix it". On the stem cell scaffolding side, the technology you're referring to is similar to MACI, in that stem cells are grown on a matrix. ACI has been compared to stem cells in at least one clinical trial already: http://www.regenexx.com/2010/04/stem-cells-better-than-knee-autologous-chondrocyte-implantation-aci/. The stem cells worked better than chondrocytes.
On the use of scaffolding for injections issue, I think the OS's you're talking to should refer to this study http://www.regenexx.com/2010/12/the-regenexx-difference-taking-and-placing-stem-cells-with-accuracy/. Note the picture at the top of the page. When the stem cells were blindly injected into the joint, there wasn't much cartilage repair. However, when the cells were dripped on a cartilage lesion (without a scaffold), there was good cartilage repair. This is because MSC's work via attachment, i.e. once they attach to a lesion they will stay there and work at that spot. So this study shows that while a scaffold may help in some instances, it isn't necessary for repair. In fact, we've now developed a device for our own use that allows us to maximize this effect.
In the next 10 years, many different scaffolds for stem cells and cellular therapy will hit the market. We've already looked at one or two. I'm sure some will be revolutionary and improve the results of injection based and surgical re-implantation of cells. Also in the future, expect cells to be delivered into knees using injection and surgical methods, with each of these approaches having positives and negatives based on what the doctor is trying to accomplish. In some cases injections will beat surgery (like this story of injecting stem cells into fractures from last week's AAOS meeting where the injection of stem cells beat the traditional surgery-see http://www.regenexx.com/2011/02/injecting-stem-cells-help-heal-fractures-faster-than-traditional-surgery/) and there will be times that that surgery is the best way to get the job done. I wouldn’t look at these two delivery methods as competitive, as more options are always better for patients. The same transition from 100% invasive surgeries to a mix of needle based and surgical procedures has already happened in cardiovascular surgery. When I was in medical school, every middle age male had a huge sternum scar from his open heart CABG surgery. These days, many of those surgeries have been replaced by interventional cardiologists placing stents through needles. While there are still medical problems that need to be handled with the big cardiovascular surgeries, many patients have benefitted from having less invasive ways to get the job done.  :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 03:48:07 PM by Dr. Centeno »

Offline men-at-arms

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #244 on: March 01, 2011, 04:27:57 AM »
Dr. Centeno,

Thanks for your reply, opinion, insight, and info. Much appreciated.

I am very happy so far with my two injections of PRP w/o HGH and prolotherapy and what these injections did to improve my osteroarthitic knees (left knee condition 3, right knee condition 4 and requires high tibial osteotomy to correct the deformed alignment bowing inwards slightly due to tibial crook after right ACL rupture and miles and miles of running). I plan to get at least 4 more sets of injections to both knees to improve the knees with PRP as much as possible as I view these treatments as non-permanent solutions but buying more time. My HTO will be done within this year, though I am NOT looking forwards to the recovery then the removal of the wedge plate and recovery which understand will cost me 1 year of pain and suffering. However, compared to TKR, all the OS's I've spoken to (those who are familiar to regenerative medicine and not the traditional view doctors) seem to think these alternative treatments are worth the pain and may help me to avoid TKR altogether.

But I should point out for the other board members (although you made the distinction already with chondrocytes and stems), that the National Taiwan University Hospital clinical trial is a stem cell treatment where stems are extracted then expanded then grown in vitro then transplanted into injured site and not ACI/MACI (which I have been told are outdated procedures). The proof of concept was done in 2006 using a Vietnamese miniature pig, and it was noted that the cartilage regenerated is like native hyaline soft firm and slimy tissue. Also, since the whole cartilage was regenerated via the matrix the thickness is as non-injured natural cartilage full thickness. I don't know pig anatomy, but I believe I read in Chinese articles that the cartilage was meniscus cartilage, which are my injured cartilages in my knees. I also don't know what other technologies are involved to improve the patient's acceptance of implants, whether that involves further MSC injections after the transplants are in place to help "binding" ? But being that I currently live and work and live in Hong Kong and originally from Taiwan and moving back to Taipei this coming July, I am following National Taiwan University's on-going clinical trial with a high personal interest.

Personally, I believe I have time to take a wait-and-see approach while MSC, MSC combine with matrices mature more. But that's just my evaluation of my own case. I liken my situation similar to people waiting for any technological improvements whether it is say cosumer electronics or automotive. Medical technology likewise always improve over time. So, for me Regenxx may be version 1.1 beta of cartilage regeneration; I estimate I probably have time, given the improvements I felt after simple PRP injections to wait for version 3.0 or 4.0 full release. However, for other cases where patients can't wait, I have personally have no doubt the work your clinic is doing now certainly seems to provide a ready solution/alternative for osteoarthritic knee pain sufferers.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 06:02:31 AM by men-at-arms »

Offline Dr. Centeno

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #245 on: March 01, 2011, 05:14:29 PM »
I would agree the Taiwain study sounds promising, just like microfracture with cells is better than micro fracture alone (at least in an equine model-see http://www.regenexx.com/2011/01/micro-fracture-plus-stem-cells-better-than-micro-fracture-alone/), I'm sure MAI with stem cells is better than MACI with chondrocytes. HTO may be a great option as well, as some recent research shows it does take pressure off the degenerated side (see http://www.regenexx.com/2011/02/high-tibial-osteotomy-of-the-knee-helps-cartilage-in-mri-study/). Since the PRP is buying time, I wish you all the best in finding the most appropriate interventions! You're 100% correct that all of these biologic interventions will continue to improve with time.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 05:16:54 PM by Dr. Centeno »

Offline Jules2424

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #246 on: March 25, 2011, 03:39:14 AM »
I decided to look up Dr. Centeno's company after reading this post and ran across something that very much disturbs me. The FDA recently sent his company a notification that he is in violation of their regulations and that they may seek legal action against him if he doesn't comply. "

I read this also, but considering the fact that the FDA doesn't have the best track record, it doesn't concern me. What I like about Regenexx is that they're very specific about their procedures. They're strictly ortho & do not make wild statements such as curing everyone or every disease under the sun. And after all, they're not injecting any foreign substance into your body. It's like a blood transfusion, using your own blood. We now take this for granted.  They are also very upfront about the possibility that the procedure may not work for everybody & tell you after evaluating you whether you're a fair, good or a poor candidate.  Believe me, I don't trust doctors easily.  But I'd rather try my own stem cells than getting cut open w/all of the risks that entails.  I'll probably go & get my knee injected with them even if I'm a poor candidate. Why? Because I think this is the wave of the future & I'd rather have my own stem cells injected than get cut open only to have the pain return, which is what happens too often with an arthroscopy.  I just wish my knee had lasted 5 more years-- when using your own stem cells will be better known. However, it makes perfect sense to me that our bodies have the capacity to heal themselves.  So it feels very natural to me.  We'll see. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. I hope not.
Jules

Offline markld

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #247 on: March 25, 2011, 08:25:11 PM »
Plantgeek and mayme,

I totally agree with both of your postings. There was a [edited by KG] guy named scooter posting on here last week claiming that he is [an] authority because he has a background in science, however I can see that plantgeek does as well.

Keep it up, I believe Regenexx is a shady outfit.....


[Some words edited out by KNEEguru as unnecessarily abrasive and against the registration rules]
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 09:26:59 PM by The KNEEguru »
April 2008 microfracture left knee trochlea
Jan 2009 ACI harvest from right knee
Mar 2009 ACI right knee trochlea
July 2009 Aci left knee
Nov 2009 left knee scope to check graft

Offline jamesofsuburbia

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #248 on: March 28, 2011, 10:33:32 AM »
Hello everyone,

This has been a thoroughly fascinating thread to read, I have read it start to finish in the past hour or so and absorbed so much valuable information in my quest to fix my knee. I am 25, a year ago had a soccer injury to my right knee which was treated incorrectly by a surgeon who did a lateral meniscus trim only when my ACL was partially torn but functionally failing and then was given an incorrect rehab plan which led to a weight bearing lateral femoral chondral defect. As a result I have been only swimming and cycling since october or so last year. I am due for a bone patellar bone ACL reconstruction in the next few months.

I have been offered MACI here in Australia but since I have almost no pain unless I try to run I have declined the long rehab and open knee surgery. Regenexx sounds like it might work for my situation. Does anyone know if this procedure or something equivalent is being used in Australia? I mentioned stem cell therapy to my original surgeon once I had an MRI and found out I had a defect and he literally laughed at me (a defence mechanism for his ignorance).

In something similar to what is on this thread read 'supramolecular design of self-assembling nanofibers for cartilage regeneration' Ramille Shah et al. They have developed a molecular matrix to deploy MSC's to defects but as far as i can tell it requires open knee surgery. The results they have had on rabbits is great.

If nobody does a Regenexx type procedure in Australia I may email Dr Centeno directly and if need be, make the trip to the USA. 

Best of luck to everyone with their knees

James

Offline Scooter72

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #249 on: March 28, 2011, 05:36:19 PM »
James, I don't know if a similar procedure is offered in Australia.  However, just for your information, I will be treated by The Centeno-Schultz clinic from April 28th-May3rd, and be posting my experienes in this forum (in a separate thread).

-Scott

Offline markld

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #250 on: March 28, 2011, 09:42:24 PM »
Evidently the rules of a free and open society, that being freedom of speech, regardless of how harsh it is, don't apply here to this bulletin.
What is the point of having a bulletin as this, if one can't express themselves in a free maner, even if they are abrasive at times????

To edit ones words is no different than what is practiced in China, Iran, or any other comunistic country, and I find it appalling.
April 2008 microfracture left knee trochlea
Jan 2009 ACI harvest from right knee
Mar 2009 ACI right knee trochlea
July 2009 Aci left knee
Nov 2009 left knee scope to check graft

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #251 on: March 28, 2011, 11:45:14 PM »
Keep up the good fight Markld!! The FDA agrees with you that Regennex is a shady outfit!! Couldn't agree more about free speech. Maybe if this forum was headquartered in the US, it would be a little bit more amenable to promoting free speech. As they in New Hampshire....live free or die!!!

Offline The KNEEguru

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #252 on: March 29, 2011, 12:24:30 AM »
Hi
 ;D This site and bulletin board is not really likely to have headquarters, as it is run by one retired woman on a meagre budget just for the benefit of people suffering from knee problems.

I understand about freedom of speech, but I care more about people here finding a sense of community and a safe venue for discussion. If I choose to edit comments to protect people from hurtful comments it is because I recognise that many of the people here have had bad experiences in the medical world and I do not want to make things worse for them.

Of course there will be differences of opinion, and expertise and experience - and people are free to express these - but not free to cause distress.

KNEEguru
--
KNEEguru

Offline crumpet

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #253 on: March 29, 2011, 05:44:03 AM »
KneeGuru:

Thanks for all you do...

~Crumpet ;)
acl issue

Offline jamesofsuburbia

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Re: Regenexx injections - Stem Cells
« Reply #254 on: March 29, 2011, 02:12:38 PM »
Thanks Scott will keep an eye out for that. Best of luck with your procedure I hope it is fruitful for you.

That speech should be free regardless of how harsh that speech is is certainly not conducive to a free society. If you really believe that how the USA is run then you are living in a dream world. Go stand on a street corner and shout 'death to america' and see what kind of response you get. Go stand there and say 'bring back the slaves' and see what happens. Don't be so ridiculous to think the moderators of this board have a right to regulate how off topic or abrasive the speech here gets, this isn't a microcosm of your flawed idea of society, its a forum about knee injuries. Deal with it.















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