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Author Topic: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee  (Read 56319 times)

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Offline trekker05

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2005, 10:15:25 AM »
Lisa,

The leg raise should be done when she's lying on her stomach.  It shouldn't hurt her knees, since initially she is not necessarily bending her knee, but at this point who knows; it shouldn't cause any more harm.  This will also hellp restrengthen some of the hip muscles that have become weak; she also probably has muscle coordination problems, with subsequent improper mechanics in her hip when she walks, thus leading to pain.  This should all be reversible; I do it all the time with my clients.  The one concern is she is still growing, so you don't want to imprint bad movement patterns.  She will eventually need these muscles retrained not only strength-wise but co-ordination wise , same as her knee muscles.  By the way, keep in mind that both the Rectus Femoris and Hamstrings cross the hip joint, as well as the knee.

As for your question, I am actually an Exercise Physiologist  and certified Clinical Exercise Specialist who has worked with various injuries and joint problems for many years.  I tend to take a little different approach than most PT's; unfortunately some PT's tend to use a "cook-book" approach, so when things don't go according to protocol, they're kind of thrown for a loop. I seem to get a lot of
 people for whom PT has failed.  Maybe they stop learning when they leave school...who knows?  I try not to work with blinders on.  Anyway, I'll be interested in the results of the  test.  Good luck.

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2005, 05:38:00 AM »
Trekker,

Thanks for explaining the exercise to me.  I will see if she's game to try it.  I mentioned it to her and she seemed reluctant and said - "well they're probably going to send me back to PT anyhow".  I don't want to push her.  I keep asking her if she wants something for pain and she keeps saying "No".  Saturday evening at church she said her whole leg was like it was asleep for a while.  She's been telling me this for weeks now and we did mention it to the OS who had no reply.  Well Monday is almost here and I am anxious for the results of the scan.  I am going to pick up copies of the report of the scan and films on Wednesday at the hospital where she took it.  I hope we have more of an idea about what's going on by then.  Though I do believe that the knee dislocated from her guarding it, though she tends to disagree with me.  Will keep you posted.  Thanks again for all your advice and support.

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline tanyasparks

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2005, 06:42:11 AM »
Hey Lisa and Heather.

I definately feel your pain.  I blew my left knee out when I was in highschool.  The OS wasn't very pleasant to say the least.  He didn't want to even touch me at all.  My knee hurt for weeks until I just couldn't stand it anymore.  Finally, my father took a day off from work to take me.  The OS was a different person when he saw my dad come in the room.  That very day he scheduled my knee surgery and ened up doing a LR.  Right now, I'm going back and forth with my OS and PT about my diagnoses.  There is no doubt that I have torn my MCL.  That is the only thing that they agree on.  I still have very little ROM in my right knee and I have a considerable amount of crunching in my knee.  My OS said that there was nothing wrong except the MCL sprain.  The Physical Therapist says that he is afraid that I have a cartilage tear.  All I know is that it hurts.  And I can definately understand the lack of compassion.  My current OS is not at all compassionate.  He acts like I'm over reacting to the pain.  He isn't the one in pain.  He doesn't know how I feel!!  He makes me crazy.  So, I can imagine a little bit of what you are going through.  Hope everything is answered tomorrow!!  Good Luck and I'm sending prayers to both of you!!

Tanya
25yrs. old
Left Knee LR in 1997
Right Knee Grade 3 MCL Tear 4/15/05
Now experiencing Locking in Rt. knee, Kneecap dislocating.
Finished with the pt and still no better
LR and Chondroplasty surgery suggested. 
Second opinion OS appt. went bust!
Waiting to see first OS for surgery.

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2005, 01:03:51 AM »
Hi everyone,

First let me say thank you to Tanya for sharing our pain and to all of you for your loving support and concern and sharing in our pain also.  OK - Went to the OS after work today.  I had a friend in the room with me.  He came in and said that the bone scan looked alright.  I then said to him that they had taken xrays of her hip while at the bone scan.  He looked surprised and then looked inside the folder and pulled out the xrays - Duh?  He put the xrays up on the monitor and saw something circled with a ?.  Then he took out the films of the bone scan and then said it looks like she might have chipped her hip on the growth plate.  To be honest with you I am now a little confused about what he said - wish I had a tape recorder - I was so anxious that some words flew past me.  He said this wouldn't affect her growth re getting taller.  He then said he wants us to go take another MRI but this time of the Hip to confirm what he thinks.  I asked him if he still considers this to be patella femoral syndrome and he said - not really - I then asked him if damage to the hip could've caused the knee to look so deformed - and he said she is favoring the other leg and I asked him if correct PT was applied would the knee straighten out and he said "Yes".  He told her to use crutches, which she has been - another duh??  I also asked him about kinetic chain evaluation, as Trekker had mentioned, and he said there are different types of kinetic chain evaluations, at which point I didn't go on as I am not that educated to get into a discussion on that.  Anyhow, so we are off to an MRI this Thursday and then back to the doctor on June 7th - but I should have a copy of the CD of the hip MRI with evaluation on Thursday to bring to the doctor, which I will burn a copy and make a copy of the eval. and let you all know.  I am so confused right now - he told her when she walks to only tap her toe down.  I just want to thank all of you for your prayers and concern and welcome any input you could give me on this visit today.  On a different note, I pulled the doctor to the side and told him about that woman - you remember the nasty office manager - and he just nodded his head and had me describe her.  Hope that took care of that lol.

Speak to you all later.  Thanks so much for sharing and caring.  Your support means more than you can ever know.

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline tanyasparks

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2005, 04:41:54 AM »
Heather and Lisa,

I'm so glad that the answers are starting to come.  Hopefully, this will get her on her road to recovery.  I have been thinking and praying for you both all day today.  I was waiting for you to post.  I was anxious to find out how everything went.  I'm so glad that maybe finally they will be able to do something with her pain.  I hope everything works out. 

Hugs
Tanya
25yrs. old
Left Knee LR in 1997
Right Knee Grade 3 MCL Tear 4/15/05
Now experiencing Locking in Rt. knee, Kneecap dislocating.
Finished with the pt and still no better
LR and Chondroplasty surgery suggested. 
Second opinion OS appt. went bust!
Waiting to see first OS for surgery.

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2005, 12:38:56 AM »
Dear Tanya,

Thanks for all your prayers.  Please keep them coming.  I hope we are moving in the right direction.  It makes sense that the hip would dislocate the knee but I think the doctor should've been looking for this in the beginning.  At any rate, maybe this will be an answer to prayer.  We'll know on Thursday after the MRI of the hip, if they give me the report to bring to the doctor like last time.  I'll post on Thursday evening if I'm not too tired.  Have to decorate a little for my son's 15th birthday on Friday.  Thanks again for all your prayers and support.

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline brattkids

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2005, 12:48:10 PM »
Lisa,

i am so happy that you are finally starting to get some answers!!!! Lots of prayers are with you to help your daughter get better!! Prayers are also with you to help you through this trying time!!!

Paulette
4/04 microfracture
5/04 debris removal
8/04 OATS with synthetic plugs
11/04 OATS traditional autograft medial femoral chondyle
05/05 debris removal and OATS assessment
6/05 Cadaver Allograft OATS lateral femoral chondyle
9/05 OATS redone could not save allograft plug
12/2006 2007 and 2008 scop

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2005, 03:06:09 AM »
Paulette,

Thank you sooooo much for your prayers.  I definitely believe in the power of prayer.  It's my faith that helps me get through so many difficult, trying times.  We went for the MRI of her hip yesterday but they gave me films instead of a CD (darn, so I couldn't burn the CD on my computer).  They said the doctor will be getting the written report.  I asked for copies and they told me it would cost $100 for copies.  Unbelievable - when her insurance is paying their bill.   When she had an MRI of her knee about a month ago, they had given me the CD with a report to bring to the doctor.  So I asked them why they didn't have the report and they said I couldn't have had a report the last time but just a standard form.  Well, I looked at the photocopy of the report of the MRI of her knee that I had made and was handed on April 6th.  It was dated April 7th with specific notations about the MRI of the knee showing normal results.  Sorry to vent but the medical profession can be so deceiving at times - at any rate I probably won't have a copy of the report in my hands until we go back to the OS on June 7th.  I might phone before then to find out the results.

Hope you have a good weekend.  I have a 3 day weekend  - thank God - now I have no excuse not to clean my house lol.  Today the weather was picture perfect in Pennsylvania - and it was my son's 15th birthday.  Heather's 14th birthday is June 10.   I won a raffle at work for an overnight stay at their timeshare in New York plus a small amount of cash for them booking a tour of the timeshare. I thought hey this is my lucky day so I played the lottery tonight.  Didn't win - shucks - but I have powerball tickets for Saturday.    I do telemarketing work.  Very, very stressful job.  Can't stand it but it helps with the bills for now plus where we live the jobs pay lousy.  Used to be a legal secretary in N.Y.  Would love to relocate back there but rents have skyrocketed over the past 7 years since we've been in PA.

Sorry I got off track.  Thanks again Paulette for writing.  Please keep the prayers coming.  You are in my prayers too!

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline morgan515046

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2005, 06:23:16 AM »
Heather and Lisa,
well i hope things are getting better...i havent heard from yall in a while....its like 12:00 am here so how did the bone scan go did they find anything???? if you've posted the results im sorry i didnt look cause im really tired....well i hope it all went well and that they can finally tell yall whats going on cause i know im getting frustrated not knowing about mine and i cant imagine heather cause she's had it longer than me!! well i better go im supposed to be asleep:) lol
hope you have a good memorial weekend....keep me posted cept i usually cant find it good luck with the house cleaning....
hugs xxxx,

mo
*14 years old*

3/29/05 Track hurdle incident
7/6/05 surgery for menisectomy
8/9/05 Possible RSD???
10/11/05 Patella Tendonitis from not rehabing all the way.

VOLLEYBALL ROCKS!!!

Offline brattkids

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2005, 11:42:58 PM »
Lisa,

Feel free to get off track any time you want!! We all need to talk!! Feel free to privat message me any time you want!! I hope your 3 day weekend goes well and your daughter feels better!!!

Paulette
4/04 microfracture
5/04 debris removal
8/04 OATS with synthetic plugs
11/04 OATS traditional autograft medial femoral chondyle
05/05 debris removal and OATS assessment
6/05 Cadaver Allograft OATS lateral femoral chondyle
9/05 OATS redone could not save allograft plug
12/2006 2007 and 2008 scop

Offline three_screws

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2005, 02:42:14 PM »
Hey, I was just reading over your posts, i didn't get the opportunity to read over them all but it sounds like you are having a stressful time!! I have had hip difficulties since i was born, i have just had my third operation to correct a dysplasia problem and i fully believe that my hips have been the cause of my knee problems. Whilst i am unsure what your daughter has wrong with her knees, i have had problems with osgood schlatters and dislocating kneecaps. I definitely favour one side of my leg when walking as well which over the years has probably added stress to my knees not doing them any favours. At the moment though since my surgery i have found that my knees are alot better, i have been doing lots of physio therapy strengthening up my quads and hamstrings and have found my knees do feel a bit more stable. I'm sorry if i what i've said hasn't helped, i'll try and read some more of the posts on here soon. Hope your daughter is okay, it'll get better, goodluck :) Pip.
Bilateral Hip Dysplasia
Closed reduction on hip '85'
Salters Osteotomy on hip '87',
Osgood Schlatters 1996,
Several subluxes- right knee, meninscal cyst 1998,
Full patella dislocation left knee/cracked knee cap,
Arthroscopy on knee *2 '02', '04',
Full Hip Recon (PAO) Jan '05'

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2005, 06:31:23 AM »
Hi Paulette,

Thanks for writing again.  Well, the 3 day weekend is almost over.  I feel so down watching my daughter hobble around.  It hurts so bad but I am trying to stay positive.  We won't have the insurance coverage I need to get her to doctors out of PA until July 1st and gosh that will be 4 months since the injury.  Maybe I should just get all the records I can between now and June 7 when she goes back to this OS and go to another provider with the insurance she has now.  I just keep thinking the longer we wait and she limps around the worse it will get.  I'm probably wrong, but just down.  I want so badly to see her running again and walking through the Mall.  Oh well, sorry again to vent but I know you don't mind - thanks girlfriend!  Hope you had a good weekend!

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline upset mom

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2005, 06:36:13 AM »
Hi Pip,

Thanks for posting.  Yep, I am stressed to say the least.  Sorry to hear about all your hip and knee problems.  Hope things get better for you too!  My daughter got hurt at school in March and we seem to be at a standstill with the doctors we have presently.  But, I have to believe, I will look back at this in a few months and realize I should've been more trusting that my prayers were being heard.  Hope you had a good weekend!  Thanks again for writing.  Please keep Heather in your prayers!

Hugs,
Lisa

Offline three_screws

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2005, 02:31:08 PM »
Dear Lisa,
Things are pretty good for me at the moment! :), just remember that no matter how bad things seem to get they always get better, you just have to keep positive :)!! Injuries can take a while to get over, especially when you are still growing, i'm sure. It makes it difficult when specialists aren't sure of what to do but when they do know just think, it will be an informed decision to provide the best care possible for your daughter :) It's annoying about the insurance problems, especially when so much money is paid into insurance every year only to find out it can only be used with certain doctors in certain hospitals etc. Goodluck with the MRI results, if you phone up for the results you may be able to get some idea of what the problem could be (if you can translate them!) and perhaps even put your mind to rest a bit :) It's hard for you l because you probably feel helpless, but your daughter is lucky to have someone that cares as much as you do and is willing to go all the way to fix her problem!
~ Pip :)
Bilateral Hip Dysplasia
Closed reduction on hip '85'
Salters Osteotomy on hip '87',
Osgood Schlatters 1996,
Several subluxes- right knee, meninscal cyst 1998,
Full patella dislocation left knee/cracked knee cap,
Arthroscopy on knee *2 '02', '04',
Full Hip Recon (PAO) Jan '05'

Offline trekker05

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Re: opinion needed re 13 year old daughter's knee
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2005, 11:54:24 PM »
Hi Lisa;

     Thought I'd wait to see if yougot any more info on your daughters knees.  A few thoughts on what transpired at your OS's office:

1.  Your doctor is clueless.  The definition of Patellofemoral Syndrome is "pain in and around the patella."  It does not mention any particular cause!  He either is unfamiliar with the etiology of the problem, or he is trying to get you off his back.

2.  You are exactly right about the hip affecting the knee.  I mentioned femoral anteversion and tibial torsion in my first post-the first is hip related, adn the second usually results from the first.

3.  A hip fracture can definitely affect the muscles around the hip, as well as the articulations of the joint.  It may be a case of a small fracture causing inflammation near a hip muscle and affecting its function, as well as suffounding muscles.

4.  Your OS is stonewalling you on the kinetic chain evaluation.  A brief primer:  The body behaves as a chain, with movement of one segment affecting the adjoining segments.  An evaluation will tell you whether there are other joints and muscles affecting what is happening at the knee.  A hip problem is a good example.  Even back problems can affect the knee.   It's the only way to assess the problem from a whole-body standpoint.

     I will be attending the annual meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine in Nashville this week; many of the top orthopedists attend this meeting, which presents reasearch in various aspects of exercise.  If you let me know where you are located, I will try to see if there are any good knee specialists in your area. Hang in there, and good luck!