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Author Topic: Grinding knees  (Read 5228 times)

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Offline PaulUKBrit

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Grinding knees
« on: August 15, 2002, 08:53:16 PM »
Anyone else have Articular Cartilage degeneration that has developed since a ACL reconstruction?, my knee grinds, i can feel the bones rubbing together and results in a loud click/clunking sound whenever i straighten my leg. Its a horrible feeling.
I have heard of a new procedure to repair this sort of injury, Autologous Cartilage Transplantation is what it is called, it invloves removing some healthy cartilage from a healthy part of the knee and sending it to a lab and multiplying it, it is then inserted into you knee in the damaged area and anchors itslef to the bone and repairs the damage over time, i have heard it has very good results, especially for younger patients, which sounds great as i am only 24, has anybody had this surgery?, and does anybody know how much it costs?, my Doctor said it was quite experimental, i will ask my Consulant at the hospital all this too but that maye be months until i see him, I am from the UK, someone help me please, thank you.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2002, 09:09:51 PM by PaulUKBrit »

Offline jani

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2002, 11:42:23 PM »
i have both bees doing the same thing but i am the newest of newbeez with all this.So here i am trying to find out all i can to avoid problems.My current doctor gave me no info at all except that he wants to "go in and look around and clean it out" what ever that means is not good enough for me so i feel after reading these pages here i better find a new doctor who i can talk to and have give me answeres before i have any surgury..so now what do i do? 1 knee is so bad i cant stand on it.Had part of my cartlidge taken out 4 years ago and now its back stabbing me under the cap?

Offline Heather M.

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2002, 04:38:05 AM »
Autologous Carticel Implantation or ACI is what you are talking about, I think.  Check out the 'arthritis' and 'patellofemoral joint' section on this bulletin board.  It's 'new' in the US, but it's been around since 1985 in Sweden.  Don't know about the status in the UK, but if you look up some of the top knee docs in London listed on this site I imagine one of them would be doing this procedure.  

It's quite expensive, from what I understand, and in the States most health insurance companies won't cover it.  One person I know of had it and paid a total of $50K for one knee only.  Since a knee replacement costs less, most insurance companies won't fork over the money.

I may be a candidate for this in the future, but for now I'm going to bide my time, try to recover from previous surgeries, and get rid of the ^%&#*&#^%#(&!! adhesions I have.  Hopefully, carticel will progress while I wait.

I believe the company that does the growing of the cartilage has a web page www.genzyme.com

If this isn't the procedure you were talking about, disregard this message ;-)

Heather

« Last Edit: August 17, 2002, 04:38:51 AM by hmaxwell »
Scope #1: LR, part. menisectomy w/cyst, chondroplasty
#2-#5: Lysis of adhesions/scar tissue, AIR, patellar tendon debridement, infections, MUA, insufflation
#6: IT band release / Z-Plasty, synovectomy, LOA/AIR, chondroplasty
2006 Arthrofibrosis, patella baja
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmaxwell

Iona_-Uk

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2002, 01:36:03 PM »
My Dad will shortly be going to have this done.

He is going in to hospital in 2 weeks to have the fisrt part of the operation to remove some of the remaining healthy cartilidge and they will then send it to be re-grown and 12-15 weeks later he will have the surgery to transplant to new cartilidge although this time scale may well vary if they have not grown enough and he has ben warned that in rarer cases it has taken up to 5 months for the cartilidge to grow.

My Dad only has 24% of his remaining cartilidge in the knee his is being operated on and they say they cannot make any guarentee that this will work, if it doesn't they have talked about a proceedure which inserts synthetic cartilidge and removes the original graft and any remaining unhealthy tissue but I dont know at what point this would becaome an option for my Dad.

Good Luck
Iona

Offline PaulUKBrit

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2002, 01:30:03 AM »
Thank you very much for the responses ppl!, well Jani i have had the arhroscopy on my knee, basically its just having your knee washed out with a solin solution, clear away and fluid or lose bodies etc, im sure your surgeon will know a lot more on your condition after this, i have had this done twice, last one in 1999, im sorry to hear your knees, especially one of them is really bad:(
Heather thank you for your response also, i found out only today that it costs aboyt 8500 here for that surgery!!, which i guess is about $11000-$12000, but next year its being put under review for the NAtional health service here which is basically a free health service, although we pay taxes etc etc, hopefully it will be introduced on the NHS, i have heard it has very very good succes rates.
Thank you also Iona, you have been very informative, and i wish your Dad well!, all of you too!!.
Best of luck to you.

Offline PaulUKBrit

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2002, 01:34:17 AM »
Here is a useful link on that sort of Cartilage surgery.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1556883.stm

Offline Heather M.

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2002, 03:26:36 AM »
Paul,

That price you quoted sounds correct for what I was told regarding the actual surgery, but I believe there is an additional charge of about US $10,000 for Genzyme to grown the cartilage for you in a lab.  Then there's the cost of the surgery center and anesthesiologist ($6K here for arthroscopy!!), hospital stay, rehab, the scope for the harvest, etc.  I'm trying to build up my knee as much as possible and then will talk to a doctor in San Diego who does this and see if I'm a candidate.  I'm very interested in the cost because I KNOW my insurance won't cover it.

Let us know if you find anything interesting.  I followed the extensive list of links someone else left under the Carticel section of this page and found some good stuff.

Heather
Scope #1: LR, part. menisectomy w/cyst, chondroplasty
#2-#5: Lysis of adhesions/scar tissue, AIR, patellar tendon debridement, infections, MUA, insufflation
#6: IT band release / Z-Plasty, synovectomy, LOA/AIR, chondroplasty
2006 Arthrofibrosis, patella baja
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmaxwell

Offline PaulUKBrit

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2002, 08:48:36 PM »
Thank you so much for the help Heather.
Wow 6k for a Arhroscopy!, ive had 2, one in 96, which confirmed my snapped ACL, and one in 99 which was a clear out/evaluation, both Arthroscopies were free!, thanks to the NHS here, although the down side is that the waiting lists for hospitals here, both for surgeries and even for appointments are AWFUL!, some people are waiting years for an APPOINTMENT!, i dont wanna get political in here but thats all down to the fool Blair and the Labour government, thats another story though.
What im hoping for is when i get my appointemnt i want to find out if the ACI surgeries will be introduced on the NHS soon, i know its under review in Nov 2003 so i guess there is a possibility, if not i wanna ask the consultant if there is any chance i can get these surgeries for free on a 'clinical study', again if not i will just have to get the money and pay for it! lol, maybe take me a year or two to save that amount but by then it may be free on the NHS anyhow! lol, well i just wanna know where i stand.  
Thanks for poiting me to those links.
Best of luck!
Paul

Iona_-Uk

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2002, 09:54:06 PM »
Hey Paul!

Ask your surgeon if you can be referred to a surgeon (there are a few in the UK) who are practicing this surgery and need volunteers, this is why my dad is having it done on the NHS.

Bupa do it too in some centres, but what the cost is, I can only imagine!.

Iona

Offline PaulUKBrit

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2002, 11:48:13 PM »
Thank you very much Iona, i will deffinitley ask my consultant when i see him!, oh and yes i imagine BUPA would cost lol.
Thank you again.

Paul

Offline PaulUKBrit

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Re: Grinding knees
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2002, 12:16:17 AM »
I was wondering Iona, is this ACI surgery only available in London?, im from the North West so it would be quite difficult travelling at the best of times never mind after surgery! lol, i am almost 100% positive this is the surgery i will need, the results of my last Arthroscopy show Articular cartilage damage to the inside and outside of the Tibia, and i feel the condition is getting gradually worse, i wondered if your Dad would have to travel to have his surgery or perhaps they could do it locally?.
My Doctor wrote to my consultant at the beginning of July, and im sure you know what the waiting lists are like in our country lol, so if i dont hear nothing by 1st Sep i will phone the hospital myself to gee them up, i have a feeling my consultant will send me for another Arthroscopy, and i will do like you said and ask him if i can be referred to a surgeon who is doing this surgery.
Hopefully things will work out for me ok.
Regarding that ACI surgery, i have been reading more about it and again i have read lots of good reports about it etc, but also i have read that after about 1 year it is common for the patient to have to go in for another Arthroscopy because the new Articular cartilage grows back a little too much! lol, and it has to be trimmed slightly, wow too much Cartilage! sounds great to me! lol, i can live with that outcome!.
Thank you.

Paul















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