KNEEtalk

The WAITING ROOM => GENERAL KNEE QUESTIONS and comments (good for new threads) => Topic started by: tensters on August 25, 2016, 09:35:40 PM

Title: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on August 25, 2016, 09:35:40 PM
About a month ago I was wheeling an air conditioner around in a cart. It started to tip over and I tried to use my leg/knee to push it back. I hit it pretty hard and the air conditioner basically didn't budge. I hit it on the inside of my right knee. There was no pain or swelling at the time, and I wasn't that concerned, though I did think it was a hard hit. Around the same time, I also tweaked my back slightly by going into extension when someone fell on me in the subway. My back ached a few days but then seemed to be mostly okay.

So about a week and a half later after this air conditioner (and back) event, my knee started bothering me on walks. It would ache at the inside spot where I hit it with the a/c. My quads where also getting very fatigued and the whole leg would not feel good and I started limping near the end of these walks. This got progressively worse as the days went by to the point that walking was very painful and it felt like just standing was difficult requiring a lot of muscular effort from everywhere. And my back was getting stiffer.

I went to a doctor and he did the standard knee ligament movement tests and he thought my knee was fine - no instability and not much pain in the area of the meniscus. I could also fully extend my leg. There was minor swelling on the inside where the a/c hit. He took xrays and the bones looked fine - no fractures. He recommended that I see an orthopedist to rule out soft tissue injury and suggested RICE and ibuprofen.

I found rice helpful in relieving swelling but it would also stiffen the area making it even harder to walk sometimes. I also tried heat but found heat totally unhelpful. Advil is amazing and makes it feel like I don't have a knee injury. I don't take it daily though just occasionally as I want to avoid adverse effects.

It's been over a month now and it hasn't worsened any but still hurts on weight bearing and I've been limping around on very short walks. I see orthopedist next week. One frustration is that I sleep on my side and this hurts the knee no matter what i do.. pillow between knees etc. It's interfering with my sleep.

I'm thinking maybe I have a mild bone bruise or mild MCL sprain? I have no instability that I can see. And I injured the meniscus in my other knee a long time ago (fully recovered) and this is nothing like that.

It almost feels like I have a funny bone in my knee and someone gave it a good wack. I do keep walking on it taking very short walks with some limping to keep up the muscles and to get movement. I'm hoping maybe some physical therapy - maybe the bike will get it better. Often times it seems like if only that pain ache in inside part of knee would let up a little the quad could take care of business and my leg knee would be fine.


Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 08:52:35 AM
Is it uncommon for a minor sprain to still be hard to walk on a month later?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 09:01:48 AM
Depends what you've strained. You mention a bone bruise, if those are severe they can take a year or even longer to fully resolve and can be painful during that time

See what the specialist says, they may do an MRI to confirm the diagnosis

Keep icing and perhaps use a good quality neoprene sports support while you wait to see the ortho

You could also try some of the standard knee strengthening exercises like quad sets, leg raises, clamshells, glute bridges. See a physio once you have seen the specialist

Good luck
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 10:38:38 AM
Thank you Vickster.

Can you tell me what the purpose of the neoprene support is? When I went to the doc, he put an ace bandage on and it did seem to make walking easier as it kept the knee flexed and out of the extended position which with full body weight bearing hurts and causes a limp etc. With the knee a little bent there is not much pain but it does make for a strange looking gait.

Is it to keep it out of the extension position or is there more? I ultimately found the ace bandage uncomfortable so basically i don't use it or any brace. I think he mentioned something about compression on it to draw swelling away - is that the sole reason?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 11:20:33 AM
Provides compression and support in my experience. I used one after a meniscus tear with lots of swelling and locking (I couldn't extend my knee), plus a cartilage defect and big bone bruise in my femur. Seemed to make walking more comfortable. Was suggested by Physio
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 11:24:17 AM
Great, thanks - I'm going to order one.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 11:39:59 AM
I ordered this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005BINV84/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's the kind of support I'm looking for right?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 02:01:20 PM
Hmm I don't know, those are more for knee cap issues

I had one of these as recommended by physio

https://www.completecareshop.co.uk/physiotherapy-aids/vulkan-knee-supports/vulkan-neoprene-knee-support-view-large?gclid=CKjTntzT4c4CFUY8GwodRLcEQg

Get advice from the physio or specialist before spending any money, the wrong type could do more harm than good. Although that one is probably fine, but it's best to have a firm diagnosis and treatment plan
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 03:00:16 PM
okay I cancelled that for now - thanks

for today if I want to go outside and walk (ive been home last few days), do you think an ace bandage could help support the knee a little?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 03:34:27 PM
I'm sure it'll be fine if that's what the doctor gave you :)
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
Yeah just tried didn't help much. I guess must avoid walks for now.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 03:49:54 PM
When do you see the specialist?

Go have a swim, stick to freestyle flutter kick, avoid breastbone kick if it hurts

If not taking an oral NSAID, could try a gel like Voltaren, massaged locally a couple of times a day
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 04:13:08 PM
thursday.... i took 400 mg ibuprofen just now and it works great.. don't have easy access to pool..think ill stay off chair today and really rest it
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on August 27, 2016, 04:16:57 PM
Try a gentle walk. I walked around on all those injuries I described above for 5 months

Or try some heel slides, straight leg lifts, quad sets if they don't hurt, keep the muscles activated

I assume you are always eating with the NSAIDs?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 04:32:25 PM
I walk around the apartment a lot. Don't always eat with nsaids - did now - but don't take em often.
The push back of knee to bed and contract quad exercise seems like a helpful one.

This injury is strange. I hurt my PCL and tore the meniscus in other knee (and it hurt a lot during injury event) and walked around for 10 years before finally getting it scoped and treated. Its great now. This knee hurts way worse than that - when its irritated - yet the leg/knee doesn't seem like it has that severe of an injury. No instability or bruising and not much swelling either. Seem like there is a weak quad component that is not improving.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on August 27, 2016, 04:41:52 PM
I wonder if it could be related to the back - spinal nerves - sciatica or something. Weeks before the injury event with a/c, I did experience a bizarre weakness in right quad for a day or two. It was sort of funny. No pain, no knee pain, the quad would just give in. It then totally disappeared overnight and leg was totally fine. I wonder if there is a  connection. I think I'll stay off chair to lessen spinal compression. I do think there is an actual knee injury, but I think it is being made worse by possible quad weakness issue.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 01, 2016, 05:37:14 PM
I tried some heel slides, leg raises etc and I could do them - and I have full range of motion - maybe not totally full on flexion but close, but man did it irritate the injury. The pain woke me up at night. I'm almost certain its an MCL sprain cause it hurts right in that area. It doesn't feel like a meniscus tear - though i  suppose it could feel different depending on location.

Then I think I made a mistake- i took a hot epsom salt bath - which i thought might soothed tight muscles. This made my whole leg feel like it was full of shrapnel. This was two days ago - its now starting to subside and getting better. I was unable to go to ortho appt today cause i couldn't put any weight on it without pain and i didn't want to risk injuring good knee with the limping gymnastics. I rescheduled for next week.

I've decided to skip all exercises and rest it - walk a little around the house and see if it goes in  better direction. I think i'm also going to try and always wear stability sneakers too.. i've been wearing flip flops and they have no support which might not be good for the mcl.

I'm still finding it hard to find a sleep position that does not annoy the left side of my right knee. Hoping if it heals up a little i can get away with pillow between knees.

If this is an mcl sprain - man does it suck.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: lovycrop on September 03, 2016, 11:31:21 AM
Interesting
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 04, 2016, 10:43:52 AM
Okay it seems to be doing slightly better. I've been alternating ice and occasional warm/hot baths (with no epsom salts) and this seems to help a little. I've been mixing walking barefoot with flip flops since putting sneakers on and off with socks is a huge drag. Walking barefoot seems to help a little bit.

I bought a cane thinking it would help by taking a little weight off the injured leg and giving me some better balance but it seems to make things a little worse cause i think i put too much weight on the cane so I've put that on the side for now.

I'm thinking maybe there is an mcl sprain but i feel it mostly in the bone so maybe its a bone bruise. I still don't feel any instability and i don't feel any catching and I can extend my leg with no problem. So it seems like its not a major ligament issue or meniscus tear though I guess it could still be. Its just hurts when I put pressure on the bone which the quad then protects and I limp.

Looking forward to seeing the ortho this thursday. I imagine even in the best case scenario, there is some pt in my future.


I'm hoping he can tell from his knee move around tests what the issue is and we can proceed conservatively.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 08, 2016, 04:26:10 PM
I finally saw the orthopedist today and he checked my xrays from the earlier doctor and moved my knee around and examined it.

So he says I don't have any fractures and nothing about the ligaments stick out. He doesn't seem to think there is a ligament injury. I mentioned that it feel like the bone hurts ... like a bone bruise and how it is described online. After testing my leg in various positions, and wow did some of that hurt, he thinks that its the meniscus that is the issue and that a bone bruise would have done enough healing to allow walking around by now (6 weeks). I still can't really bear weight on the leg/knee for more than 15 steps before I need to limp.

So I have a "standing" MRI scheduled for Tuesday and we'll see what's what then. He said that sometimes when you tear the menisucs a piece can hang off and cause pain etc and difficulty with walking. It if is that, he said a 15 minute arthroscope procedure would be performed and then you're walking in a few days and then some PT and he says its not a big deal.

As I mentioned earlier, I injured the meniscus in my other leg (left) 15 years ago and had an arthosopic procedure and it turned out well. This injury in my right knee feels totally different from that one. I could walk no problem with the other meniscus injury. Anyways I ordered crutches  because the cane is not enough really and I guess I should get used to them since if we go the arthoscopic route I will need them for a little while.

Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 08, 2016, 04:39:00 PM
Sounds positive.  However, do not rush into meniscus surgery if you can avoid it. Removing the meniscus will likely lead to some degree of arthritis developing (depending on where, how much, how your knee reacts etc).  It is a minor surgery for most but with potential consequences (which the surgeon won't be living with). 

I had 3 weeks off work with my lateral menisectomy, unavoidable in the end after 5 months of a locked knee that started to buckle, rather than pain alone, knee not in a great state now (6 years on)

Seeing if it heals with some physio is always a wise first step :)

There's a really good meniscus primer and video in the Learning hub ^^

Good luck :)
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 08, 2016, 05:11:18 PM
Thank you Vickster.

I am definitely taking your advice and I'm going to read and view what you suggest.

I'm thinking if he shows me a small piece of meniscus that is interfering with the joints operation (via that MRI) and that is why I'm limping 6 + weeks after the injury and he intends to only remove that - basically a partial mensicectomy - and leave enough meniscus to act as shock absorber for the knee than I think that is something to consider right? Because I don't think any PT could fix that right - a meniscus interfering with walking?

One thing I don't get, and I"m no expert, but if it is the meniscus, shouldn't there be leg extension issues?  I have pretty much full extension and flexion. If the meniscus is causing a mechanical issue with the joint, shouldn't it show with extension? I still feel there is a quadicep weakness issue - maybe its the knee injury triggering it.

I guess no matter what he finds including the above I can always try some PT first right?
I'd love to solve this with PT.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 08, 2016, 05:31:15 PM
I had 3 weeks off work with my lateral menisectomy, unavoidable in the end after 5 months of a locked knee that started to buckle, rather than pain alone, knee not in a great state now (6 years on)

Seeing if it heals with some physio is always a wise first step :)

There's a really good meniscus primer and video in the Learning hub ^^

Good luck :)



Sorry to hear that about your knee. When I had my first partial meniscectomy on the other knee, I had a discoid meniscus so he only had to remove from the center and he was able to leave a good strip all around. He told me then that this is what you want to do and that removing the meniscus can lead to issues long term.  It's been pretty well behaved since. The knee does seem a little lax in the pcl though, but no instability, I just prefer when I lay down to put a small pillow or sheet under it with it layed out to avoid any feeling of it slightly hyperextending. But the knee is okay other wise. Doc told me that is I worked the leg out and built up the quads it would not hyperextend... 

I also have a grade 1 mild spondylolisthesis... which normally doesn't bother me if I don't bother it.. any exercise that causing extension in the back bothers it... so like leg raises...so when I go to PT i have to explain/argue with them so they can give me an alternative exercise... can be a drag
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 08, 2016, 09:09:08 PM
Can a torn meniscus cause serious problems walking and weight bearing? For weeks? Can it get better?

 Like I mentioned, I can walk a few feet before I'm limping bad enough that I have to be careful not to injure my other leg or my back and now have a cane and soon crutches.

I feel a little scared and nervous about this. Its not acting like other injuries including knee injuries I've had.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 08, 2016, 09:31:17 PM
Mine caused my knee to lock for 5 months, then I had surgery to remove the torn bit from the joint. I tried physio, at no time did I need crutches, but I did limp because I couldn't straighten my leg, I used a neoprene sports support. Ice, occasional painkiller

I have two further tears (at least, the MRI was nearly 3 years ago) in that knee which cause me little to no bother

It depends very much on where the tears are and whether they are interfering with the mechanics of the joint. For me, pain alone would not be cause for surgery given the potential issues from surgery and beyond. Locking and buckling are indications for surgery as the tissue being trapped can make the tears worse

Have you read the info in the learning hub about the types of tears?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 08, 2016, 10:07:24 PM
Yes I just read through that about the tears. I don't seem to have any locking or buckling and my knee extends and flexes okay unless its very sore from bearing weight then flexion goes but it comes back. The problem is the pain - when i bear weight on it is enough to make my knee bend to take weight of it and then I limp but its not a good limp. Its stressful. When it really hurts and i've pushed it standing on it (doesn't take much) then I feel like the knee has no strength and i must sit. I don't know if you call that buckling..


If i keep all weight off the knee - which is hard to do and also I'm a little concerned about atrophy, the knee starts to feel okay and I wouldn't even know its injured until i bear weight. The injured/torn meniscus is on the inside of the right knee - right at that junction - i thought it was the bone cause the bone feels sore.

When i  rest my knees together, like when sleeping on the side with pillow between the knees, this makes that area hurt (really the upper bone). I wonder if I'm not allowing it to heal by doing this.. i can't seem to make it comfortable.

I have a feeling could be wrong that if I could just not stress it for a few days with weight that maybe it could do a little healing and then i could walk on it and the do some gentle rehab/walking etc. The crutches I guess will help  but the sleeping is an issue.

Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 09, 2016, 10:52:37 AM
I was reading a little more and it seems that what my knee is doing is more of a pseudo-locking as opposed to true locking. The pain/swell etc causes the knee to bend a little and lose its range of motion to protect itself from further damage and then you limp etc. But if I were to sit down and relax for a second I would have full extension - which is one test that can show if one has true locking - something in the joint mechanically stopping motion.

I wonder though if perhaps when I am weight bearing on the knee - standing/walking - and in that orientation it changes the way the joint/meniscus falls and behaves and maybe there is something in the way in the joint besides the pain/swelling. And when I move to non weight bearing it moves back out of the way and i have relatively good extension?

I'm not sure if my knee buckles. It never does out of my control like I stand on it and it buckles. But once it goes into limp protect mode, it can become exhausted quickly and then it feels like i could lose control of it.. by that time I'm sitting so I don't get to see what would happen.

One question I have is about pain killers. I can acutally take the pain of this - its not that bad to be honest. The worst is when weight bearing and the knee doesn't cooperate. It's more just frustrating. Every site says take ant-inflammatories - especially ibuprofen. I've been taking Advil (ibuprofen) from time to time and I've noticed some bad things.

One, ibuprofen seems to make my blood pressure go up a lot. To the point i can feel it in my head - an almost 30 point rise. Took me a little while to notice this. I thought it was the stress of trying to limp around but I've tested it and it is advil.

Two, it bothers my stomach and makes me nauseous. Even with food.

Finally, it does take away pain and I can walk a little on it, but later its like the revenge of the knee - I have to pay for that "numb walking"with pain that i didn't feel on advil.

Is it okay to just not take advil or similar (unless of course pain was unbearable or I'm post surgery) and just use ice and forget the painkiller?

I remember with my other leg I never took pain killers even after surgery other than one pill that evening.



Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 09, 2016, 11:02:19 AM
If you have side effects, don't take the meds. Talk to your doctor about pain management and alternatives. Get your BP checked (although hypertension doesn't really have clear symptoms). I take naproxen but with a stomach protector as been taking all year for shoulder.

You could take paracetamol (Tylenol) instead or try a topical NSAID like voltaren

If you have minimal pain, you may not even need anything. Ice and/or heat could be enough but talk to doctor
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 09, 2016, 11:15:01 AM
Great, thanks Vickster.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 10, 2016, 05:03:42 PM
I have a couple of questions.

1. Do you think it is okay to tolerate a little limping in an effort to walk around a little to help build up the muscles and to move?

I have a cane and it sometimes seems to help a little bit but it also feels like it is weakening my leg more and is affecting the way i put my weight on my limbs. It's like reinforcing a walking pattern. Plus I still limp a little with it.

2. Pain at night. I think my sleep is being severely affected by the knee. I'm not getting a good sleep. I'll get a few hour and I wake up and it hurts - not terribly but enough. I also have nightmare/dreams about my knee. I sleep with the knees together on the side with pillow between. For some reason, it aches in that area with just the pressure of the other knee no matter how many pillow or what i use to cushion.

Is there something else I could try? Should i consider other pain killers nsaids? I think I once did try advil for sleep which gives me some off effects but it did not help all that much.

Thanks so much.



Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 10, 2016, 06:06:52 PM
What did the OS say?

Can you speak to your primary care doctor or a pharmacist about pain relief. Why not try Tylenol (paracetamol for example) or something with codeine if pain is worse which may also help you sleep.  But get a professionals advice on medication

I limped on my torn meniscus (and cartilage defect) for 5 months

Do you suffer from anxiety typically? You seem pretty worried and stressed about what sounds a fairly minor injury? If so, perhaps seek some help for that as well?

Go talk to your doctor (what country are you in?)
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 10, 2016, 06:40:02 PM
He didn't say much just that we need an MRI to see if it is a torn meniscus or bone bruise etc.
I guess the spondylolisthesis and the way this injury developed, like from not so bad to progressively worse has me a little anxious thinking i might have to deal with a back and knee issue and not sure what's causing what. Yes i do tend towards anxiety. I'll take your advice about doctor/anxiety (I'm in USA).

I'll try a little tylenol. I'll try and walk on it as much as I can and hope it improves and see what doc says next week. Thanks.

Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 10, 2016, 06:52:18 PM
Good luck for the scan :)
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 26, 2016, 10:22:12 PM
Thanks Vickster.

Okay I had the MRI scan (I had a open sitting MRI) last week and reviewed it with the OS today.  He said that I have a pretty good bone bruise on the medial femoral condyle - but no meniscus tear - ligaments looks good - MCL is fine.

He's giving me a brace (very expensive) - an unloader brace -  to wear for 2 months when I'm going to be particularly active and 2 months of physical therapy. He thinks it will likely take a while to heal esp given location. He doesn't think I need scope or surgery. I'm also going to check in with back doc as all the limping has my back not feeling best and I'm hoping a little PT or exercise for that will be good.

The knee is doing a little better. I can bear weight on it now and I'm limping much less and I actually walked like 10 blocks today outside after the doctors appt (no cane), though I did take a little ibuprofen before.  I'm definitely going to start taking walks daily and get out of the house now.

So looking a little better.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 12:30:38 PM
Sounds positive.  Hope the brace helps, try not to become over reliant on it (not something I have ever had to use)

Are you seeing a physio too?
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
Hi Vickster - thanks!

I'm going to start the PT when I get the brace next week.
I'm definitely not going to rely on it and just will use it with PT as asked and maybe occasionally during the two months.

I actually don't like the idea of the brace at all - taking stress off the MFC and putting it elsewhere and changing how quad acts...  I'm going to use it as infrequently as possible esp since I can put weight on it and it is not really that painful now.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 12:54:50 PM
I had a big old bone bruise on my lateral femoral condyle along with a meniscus tear and WB cartilage defect, no discussion of any sort of brace.  I think doctors and physios here in the UK want you weight bearing as much as tolerated, no crutches given to me either (reserved for broken legs and post op as needed it seems)!

I'd talk to the physio about the brace

The cynic in me wonders if HCPs over there get financial incentives for handing out equipment...
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 12:59:14 PM
Yeah I was wondering about that too. This is a "cheap" non-custom brace and it costs over $1,000. I don't think I need it personally. The doctor who seems really nice and has a great rep thought my bruise was pretty significant (he says it really lit up the MRI) and is where I bare a lot of weight and thinks it will help. My insurance likely will cover most if not all of it but I have been thinking about saying I can't afford the copay or something and asking them to cancel it and I'll just do therapy sans brace.

Maybe I'll do that. Definitely don't like the idea of the brace transferring extra load else where.

I think I've already gotten over the worst of the bruise walking around the apartment for past month and half and now just have to strengthen everything up, make sure back okay etc.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 01:08:48 PM
$1000  :o

Maybe just use the brace if having to stand for long periods at work say
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 01:14:15 PM
Yeah that is what they said... when overly stressing it... if taking like a 2 mile walk etc.
Maybe I'll just get it since its paid for anyway and I'll use it sparingly like in these situations.
Only meant to be used during at all the two months and then put aside.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
Btw, by coincidence a family member also injured his knee in the last couple of months - tore the meniscus and complete tear of ACL. He is going to try rehabbing it on his own.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 01:39:05 PM
And I've done something to mine last night...i fear for my meniscus :(

If active, I'm not sure living long term with a ruptured ACL is a good option if even a little active (depending on age) for the integrity of the joint cartilage and structures
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PM
Oh I'm sorry to hear that Vickster - I hope it is alright. Were you doing sports or something?
Meniscus injuries seem to have a lot of hope as long as there is no mechanical locking.
Hope it's okay.

Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 01:43:32 PM
No! I'd just got out of the bath (after a sports massage), somehow planted my foot and twisted my knee. Loud crack, lots of pain, now can't bend or straighten comfortably :(
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 01:46:52 PM
Damn. I hope it is not serious. Maybe you'll regain ext/flex and it will be better. I'm currently terrified of pivoting/planting twisting. Yeah -  about the ACL. And esp if you are active. I hope that however it plays out if goes well for him. Hope that you are okay too!
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 01:50:37 PM
Fingers crossed. That knee is pretty knackered but it's been pretty trouble free for a couple of years

Got an appointment with GP and physio on Thursday for shoulder so will ask about knee too if still playing up. Its weirdly worst behind the knee, I'm just assuming meniscus as I know I already have tears in there and the mechanism  :-\
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 02:02:21 PM
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Good that you may be getting it looked at right away. Hopefully its nothing serious.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
Indeed. I start a new job on Monday!

Might try a gentle gym workout later, some light resistance on static bike and elliptical 
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 03:29:12 PM
Sounds good. I think I am going to get a gym membership soon.
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: vickster on September 27, 2016, 04:22:00 PM
It's a good option for an evening workout especially for a fair weather daytime cyclist for me! Mine is really cheap too, probably equivalent to $25 a month, unlimited use...and 5 minutes from home  8)
Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on September 27, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
Today went out with no ibuprofen and a very different experience. Got 1 block and was limping and not feeling good at all. Maybe was a little stressed from yesterday. Try again tomorrow.

Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on October 04, 2016, 08:36:58 AM
Hi Vickster.

Hope your knee is doing ok. I started pt for the knee and knee is doing better.



Title: Re: I think I hurt my knee
Post by: tensters on October 10, 2016, 07:14:13 PM
So i started physical therapy and quit after just two sessions. The therapist not only kept putting me into lumbar extension which I told her I cannot do  due to spondylolisthesis (and I got the feeling she had no idea what that is - scary for a doctor of PT), she kept having me do things that were putting a lot of pressure on the bruise and hurting it. So I quit that.

I'm going to see back doc next week, have xray, hope all is okay - probably is - and ask him for some back PT at a good place I know. I'll also ask him if they can work in some cycling for the knee.

Knee is doing better. I can walk for 20 minutes and can do 6 flights of stairs up and down - slowly. I work at it everyday. Still not normal yet though and the bruise still hurts from time to time even when doing nothing but is getting better. My flexion is not full. I think a lot of my issues now are just dealing with all the muscle atrophy and lack of use.  Back is also totally stiff.

I guess as doc says it is going to take a while. I read a few posts online that people were dealing with this - a medial femoral bruise - a year later - unable to climb stairs after setbacks. Man I hope I can keep it improving.

Got the brace, don't like it at all. Its so bulky and heavy. I don't know how anyone can wear it - even with sweatpants its a tight fit. I might give it a try but I don't see myself wearing it much.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 23, 2016, 06:37:24 PM
My knee is slowly but surely getting better. The bone bruise is hardly hurting at all now (it's been a little over 3 months since injury).

I'm slowly regaining my normal fast and long walking stride, and am getting better at descending stairs. Going upstairs is no problems. I have full extension and seem to have full flexion now. I bought a gym membership, and have just started to use the exercise bike a little. I'd say my knee is about 70% better. Maybe a little less.

Reading the MRI again, it mentions a 4mm osteochrondal lesion as part of the bone bruise description in the medial femoral condyle. I've read about this before and its a little confusing. I think what this means is the bone and articular cartilage have been damaged, and articular cartilage doesn't really regenerate/heal and just sort of scars over. This kind of injury in time can lead to osteoarthitis, persistent pain etc.

I've read there are various treatments, many of them involving surgery and casts etc. Also read that for many people these lesions are asymptomatic, which I assume means there is no pain or swelling from it or progression to OA. The lesions also seem to be common.

I'm trying to get an idea of how likely this could be an issue in my case. The knee seems to be doing well - no longer any pain or swelling just taking some time (a damn long time) to get back up to speed.

Is this type of injury really that common? Is it common among the types of bone bruises?
Would this be considered a relatively small injury at 4mm? I ask because I've read of surgeries and they all seem to involve much larger (cm) lesions.

The orthopedic surgeon when I saw him last did not seem to think the injury was a big deal just that bruise might take a while to heal due to its location.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 23, 2016, 07:12:39 PM
4mm is tiny when you think about the size of the bone surface.  I'm surprised they even mentioned it. I can't imagine it'll cause you any great issue. 90% of the adult population probably have some sort of flaw somewhere on a bone.  I can't imagine why you'd consider surgery? And what would a cast do?

I'm not minimising it, but really I wouldn't worry about it, as you say the pain is gone, the knee is nearly better :) if your surgeon isn't concerned and it's causing you no specific trouble, move on, forget about it. Focus on other more important things in life

As I've been told by my physio in the past, radiologists are paid to report on every little thing they see on the images, it's their job to do so, err on the side of caution

I've had a 1.5cm scarred over defect in my left knee, right on the weight bearing surface. Happened 7 years ago (along with a meniscus tear and a bone bruise covering a large part of the lateral condyle. yes, I needed surgery for the meniscus, I'm not able to run or kneel comfortably on it, but I've probably cycled 10000 miles, held down a full time job, been on numerous holidays since etc.

I've done now something to the knee again, after a twist but I don't think this is the cause
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 23, 2016, 07:32:23 PM
Thanks Vickster!
 
I'm definitely not considering surgery, it just seems to be the big treatment and concerned me a little. Wasn't sure what to make of all of that.

Reading the MRI some more, it also mentions no distinct fracture line - i assume referring to the lesion, and I guess that is good.

Yeah it does sound tiny.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 23, 2016, 07:37:44 PM
So that twist is still bothering your knee? Did you see doctor?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 23, 2016, 07:39:49 PM
Victoria ;)

Don't dwell on it, just finish recovering and move forwards :)

I see my specialist next Saturday. GP thinks maybe collateral ligaments, physio suspects meniscus, I'll see what he reckons
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 23, 2016, 07:42:34 PM
Sorry! - I originally wrote Vickster but then rewrote the sentence and it somehow became Victor.

Good luck with the specialist!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 23, 2016, 07:44:59 PM
Thanks. My insurer has also authorised an MRI so will see if the surgeon thinks it's necessary. The last one was 3 years ago I think
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 03:15:20 AM
An osteochondral lesion and osteochondral defect are the same thing?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 24, 2016, 07:33:39 AM
Yes, means damage to the articular cartilage. Osteo = bone, chondral = cartilage
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 08:32:12 AM
Thanks Vickster.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 09:42:12 AM
I had some more questions, but I got them answered after reading further - thanks again.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 11:40:24 AM
I've read a lot of positive things about Jello - gelatin - and bone broths, with regards to knee and other joint injuries/cartilage damage and OA and also GI tract and sleep issues. Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 24, 2016, 11:52:31 AM
Never heard of it

Fish oil, glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM can have some benefits, but not really proven

Supplements aren't really my thing. Hyaluronic acid injections help my arthritic knee, but wouldn't be needed in your case. Better off with physio exercise and strengthening, and generally taking it slowly and allowing to heal
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 12:06:02 PM
Yeah I'm not into supplements either - in terms of expensive concentrated fractions of some nutrient in pill form. I'd rather get it naturally in its full state - food  - and much cheaper too.

According to the articles, Gelatin is high in glycine and I guess other things which are supposed to be beneficial. Seems like part of the benefit/pain relief may be due to an anti-inflammatory effect and some say it helps rebuilds better quality cartilage etc. Don't know if that is true/proven - I imagine it is not proven. Jello is one source and that is like one of the cheapest things there is. Bone broths would probably be best but that takes a little work.

Here is one article from Prevention magazine:

http://www.prevention.com/food/gelatin-superfood

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 24, 2016, 12:26:28 PM
If you think it'll help, try it. Can't see it hurting.

I don't mind a bit of gelatine in Haribo but don't want to go out of my way to eat boiled bones

This weeks superfood is next weeks carcinogen
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 12:29:37 PM
Lol, true.

Maybe I'll give the jello a try - a good excuse for whipped cream anyway.


Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 24, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Eww sweet cream. Bear the calories in mind
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 09:09:09 PM
I hear you. I've lost about 20lbs since the injury through deliberately eating less to lose weight. I have another 20 to go to be at my right weight. I figure that should help the joint/s a little.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 24, 2016, 10:18:35 PM
Depends how widespread the loss is and grade of the damage. Sounds more severe than a 4mm osteochondral defect. How old are they?

The order in the report generally does not follow seriousness I think if there are several things going on. More likely to follow the series of the images where the issues are seen? Or the order of the specific things the surgeon asked the radiologist to look at

I found my MRI report from 3 years ago, we shall see if things have progressed further or if the HA jab has slowed things
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 24, 2016, 10:36:00 PM
Ok gotcha. Person is early 40's.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 25, 2016, 06:57:41 AM
Previous ligament or meniscus injuries and surgery?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 25, 2016, 07:32:17 AM
As far as i know has no previous history of serious knee injury or surgery though currently has meniscus/acl tear after a recent injury event.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 25, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Here is another article btw about gelatin/bone broths. It references some clinical studies including one on osteoarthritis.

https://draxe.com/gelatin/

Anyways, maybe I'll cook me up some bones in the future.



Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 31, 2016, 09:54:12 AM
Saw specialist, thinks lateral meniscus tear as suspected by Physio. MRI to assess damage and whether anything needs to be done
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 31, 2016, 01:19:02 PM
Oh I'm sorry to hear that Vickster. They could be wrong - my doctor was convinced I had a meniscus tear and was wrong at least according to MRI which he believes is accurate. At this point in time I don't feel like it is torn so it seems to be matching MRI.

I guess its good to have the MRI in any case just to see what's up. As they say a lot of people are walking around with meniscus tears - if there is one maybe you can just rehab it. Hopefully it is not a serious tear if there is one. I hope you have experienced some improvement with it since you twisted it. Sounds like you have if you are moving around etc.

When I tore mine in the other knee, I walked on it for a long long time. I was very doctor/surgery adverse. After finally going for an MRI which I could not lie still for and no image was obtained, I had exploratory arthrosopy and he snipped away a large tear that was in the middle of joint due to discoid meniscus, and the knee has been okay since. I would say it definitely improved my knee.

Regarding the bone bruise knee, it's getting better. Just got back from a long walk that included shopping. I find this the best exercise.. just going out and doing things and bearing weight on it for long periods. My descending stairs is improving too. That's the hardest thing to do.

I had a terrible experience some days ago.

My knee/s joints were feeling good but my legs muscles were beat up so I tried an epsom salt bath again figuring it would be good to relieve achy muscles etc. My last experience with it was bad but I figured this was due to maybe still having a lot of inflammation and the heat/magnesium aggravated it or something. So I figured now the bruise is not hurting, knee does not seem to have inflammation, I should be good.

So I did the bath and all was well. Went to sleep, woke up, and could barely move. Back and knee felt totally stiff and I almost fell. Was like this for two days - thought I injured my back and knee again. After about 2 days it just disappeared. I apparently have some sort of intolerance to epsom salt. Read online a few others complaining about this, but most people seem to benefit. I tossed it and will not ever use it again.

I'm still a week away from seeing OS again for followup. I don't think I will see back doctor because back is getting better with the knee. I'll see how that goes over the next couple of months.

Good luck with the MRI.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 31, 2016, 01:41:02 PM
Unfortunately, I think he is probably right due to the mechanism of injury, the state of my knee (increasingly valgus) and the very clear joint line pain. And the fact the last MRI showed one 3 years ago!

MRI being done tomorrow morning
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 31, 2016, 01:46:43 PM
How is the knee doing?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 31, 2016, 02:01:39 PM
Very stiff and sore unfortunately
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on October 31, 2016, 02:04:59 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope the MRI shows the issue and then you can take measures to make it better and get the knee to a good state. Good luck with the scan  tomorrow!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on October 31, 2016, 03:32:33 PM
Hope so. I'm a bit concerned it's disintegrating but I've had 5 or 6 OK years from it since I did the damage

Fingers crossed any tear is small and can be managed with Physio. I can't do anything this year anyhow if not for longer!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 04, 2016, 04:36:53 PM
Saw the OS last night

The good news is he doesn't think the meniscus is torn (to any great degree) and generally the articular cartilage looks ok considering

The less good news is that I appear to have had a collapse of the subchondral bone within the osteochondral bone (wb lateral femoral condyle), probably the crack I heard when twisted knee and that the defect appears bigger / deeper. Also the fibrocartilage which developed in response to the trauma is starting to flake. To be expected as 7-8 years is about the lifespan for it, and it's been a little over 7 years. He said if I'd had the maci back then I'd be in a similar situation in a couple of years.

He said to take it easy for the next 6-8 weeks (as much as I can with a crazy upcoming work schedule) with gentle exercise in the gym or on the bike to maintain rom.

Then see how it is, perhaps consider a hyaluronic acid jab in the new year, the joint looks quite dry on MRI

Longer term, don't know...



 
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 04, 2016, 07:52:52 PM
Hi Vickster

I'm glad to hear that the meniscus and cartilage look relatively ok but sorry to hear about the bone issue. I hope that taking it easy and gentle exercise help with the stiffness/soreness in addition to keeping the rom up and that if you need to take that shot it helps. Also hope that longer term if anything more invasive ever needs to be done that it brings relief and a better knee situation.

You probably have read a lot of this stuff already I bet but I thought I would mention this anyway - I read this interesting "treat you own  knee" book by PT jim johnson - a short simple book with probably the easiest rehab program in the world  which includes 1 quad isometric strengthening exercise - back of knee to pillow, 1 endurance 20 minute exercise 3x a week, could be walking or biking or pool walking, 1 proprioception/balance exercise - stand on one leg for 30 seconds eyes closed -  and 1 30 second hamstring and quad stretch - those 4 components with 2 days off.

In addition, he spends a lot of time going over studies that show that there are many people who have seriously bad knees, severe arthritis as shown on MRI/X-ray etc who have little or no pain or much mobility issues. And there are some with relatively minor issues if that who are crippled with pain. I know from reading about back problems that you see this too - some people have perfect imaging of spine but are in terrible pain and take opiods while others have disastrous looking spines and have no pain. Actually, come to think of it, when I helped a friend recover from brain injury, the surgeon told me that you treat the patient symptoms - some cat scans show a good looking brain but the person is severely affected and vice versa.

Anyway, I think the conclusion he comes to when asking why do two people who have a similar injury have such different outcomes is that quad strength and other muscle related factors may make the difference in some cases. So he suggests trying the relatively simple program for 3 months and if it doesn't help then it may not be the solution though he often finds it helps a lot of his patients.

Anyway, an interesting and hopeful book. Not sure how accurate it is or if the studies have been interpreted correctly etc. Just thought I would mention it just generally.

I spent a lot of time yesterday on my feet and did tons of stairs in the subway. I pushed it a little. It went okay but was a little nerve racking. Feeling a little achy today so just taking it easy. Getting better but boy it's a slow process.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 04, 2016, 09:10:56 PM
Did you edit your post in some way? Doesn't matter

Anyhow I think the book you refer to is more aimed at people with PFS or unexplained pain. The surgeon has told me not to see a physio, as he doesn't want me to be pushed, just to take it easy and let the damage heal. Some of the suggested exercises like quad stretches force the knee into hyper flexion, a major cause of pain for me due to the location of the defect. So to be avoided at all cost at th risk of doing more damage!

To be honest I'm pretty fed up with physio as I've been rehabbing my shoulder for over a year now, so I'm quite glad he said no physio sessions!

Physio won't heal the bone ultimately, I'll  stick to gentle cycling, walking at least for now

Cheers for the suggestions though
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 04, 2016, 11:29:39 PM
Yeah I can't do the quad stretches yet because it requires a lot of flexion and it actually can bother my back if I'm not careful even in best of times. I personally don't follow this and just do a lot of walking and stairs myself. I just found the book and the studies interesting. He has a back book (basically one exercise) and knee arthritis book too (which is similar). The back book didn't help me but still a lot of interesting info.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 04, 2016, 11:33:49 PM
Fair enough, I'm just not really interested in such books :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 05, 2016, 12:06:01 PM
Just managed an hour at the gym, 20 minutes on elliptical and 30 on recumbent bike, legs are stiff and foot is sore, but not too bad otherwise

Later more walking and fireworks :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 05, 2016, 12:55:21 PM
That's great Vickster.  That sounds like a good long workout - 20 minutes on bike and then another 30 minutes on elliptical - I don't think I ever worked up to anything like that in the past when I wasn't injured the few times a gave cardio type workouts a try.  I did get a gym membership in the past few weeks and have done the bike once (and it was fine - no resistance) for about 15 minutes but the gym is far from me so even the walk there is a workout or at least it was so I haven't been extremely enthusiastic about going there. I would like to get back there but I've been pretty preoccupied with just walking and stairs and seem to be making progress with just this.

The rest of my body is getting better now. I think I briefly induced a sort of functional weakness in my left arm - very very mild, just barely perceptible - and I've read this can happen in response to pain/trauma esp in back and neck and both did get super stiff and painful during the course of this - but now the arm seems to be normalizing.  Back is a lot better too. One of the reasons i got really concerned earlier is that i couldn't lay on back without bringing on a lot of uncomfortable nervy-ish pain in lumbar spine area, and it felt like the kind of pain that if I just endured it - it could worsen and go in a bad direction. Knowing there is a slipped vertabrae there only fed this fear. So my concern was if i had to do scope/surgery for knee, how could i if I can't lay on back etc.. I'm sure there may have been a solution for that (even if it just involved waiting for back to heal more) but it was all just a pile on and was scary. Anyway, can now lay on back and its a little stiff but no nervy pain or much pain at all.. whew. And luckily looks like no scope/surg or any invasive treatment for knee needed in any case at least at this point. Haven't seen back doctor and if back continues to do well I won't.

Rescheduled OS follow up which will happen in 2 weeks. I think he will likely be pleased.

Today I am going to go out and about again. This will be a longer trip with multiple subway rides and lots and lots of stairs. Real time physical therapy.

I was thinking about buying a set of "steps" to work specifically on this at home but they are so expensive. Then I also got to thinking, slow down, its getting better, it is going to take time. This thought also counters the thought that I want to do more and more which carries the risk of reinjury. Trying to stay in that middle ground of doing enough to progress but not aggravate or reinjure is tricky especially since some progress may involve a little aching or slight pushing. And when the knee is feeling particularly good I think - I can do that - and sometimes I'm surprised it was harder than I thought. Takes patience and discipline.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 05, 2016, 01:06:58 PM
Opps, I meant 30 on bike and 20 on ellliptical. I think the most I've ever done is 20 on exercise bike in past. I used to love bike riding though. I would ride all day long around parks when i was younger. I keep thinking I should buy a light 10 speed bike and get back to that at some point in the future.

I've never tried the recombent bike before - I think that it is supposed to be better for back and is a little gentler. Maybe I will try that next time I go. The one time i tried elliptical I found it very quickly totally exhausting.

I was wondering about the "fireworks" and then realized there is the holiday/celebration in UK - enjoy!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 05, 2016, 01:12:13 PM
I can relate to the backache lying flat, the MRI was quite uncomfortable. I had lumbar discectomy about twenty five years ago, been broadly ok since, does get achy and stiff thought from time to time. Not helped by my rubbish posture

Cycling I see my passion and the cause of my knee issues. Won't give it up though
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 05, 2016, 01:22:55 PM
Yeah I couldn't do the lying down MRI. I could not even do a standing MRI since it requires the body to have a lot of straightness. I then saw on youtube a video of a sitting open MRI and i thought perfect. And it even has decent strength in terms of imaging power. Then I found a place that had it (sort of hidden in site description) so I went there and had that done.

It turned out to be a different kind of torture lol since you must get all crunched up on this tiny sitting surface with your leg right into the machine - for 40 minutes. Also, knee must be totally extended and they sort of bolt it down in that position. It actually felt almost hyperextended. My body was involuntarily shaking and he warned me a few times to "stop that". Took some focus. It was extremely uncomfortable and I bet some of that inflammation he saw on MRI was due to the MRI position - the MRI itself. I actually a few times yelled out to stop but operator didn't respond. I got through it and doc says they got perfect images. Ibuprofen saved me that day (i had debated on whether to take it or not before procedure) because without it no way I could have tolerated that.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 05, 2016, 01:34:50 PM
I don't think your knee would inflame so quickly in an MRI :) the images are computer generated, the physics is quite interesting, not a picture per se as I understand it. Maybe you just got a bit stressed out, it's an odd experience. Not great if you can get situational anxiety (which I do on planes but not landbased scanners :) )

 I think I've had 7 MRIs now on various bits. Ct is more pleasant as it's quick but MRI better for soft tissue and little radiation

Yes the knee needs to be straight and still. Was an issue for my first MRI when the knee was locked bent due to the trapped meniscus
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 05, 2016, 01:42:51 PM
Yeah definitely was having a lot of stress. Also body was totally stiff and I think my core had deconditioned so sitting in that position I felt like my body was not able to support itself. It was just very tense. Also, when I put my leg into the machine, there was a little thing at the end and he told me he wanted my foot up and over that and on top of that somewhat - I was like are you kidding - it felt like a hyperextension force. And then he stuck foam to wedge it in tightly.

I asked the tech when done right away did he see anything - and he said that doc would go over results with me - but he did say the first set of image was not clear and had to be redone and after he told me about staying absolutely still the images were perfect/high quality. So at least it was successful but man it took a lot of mind tricks to get through it. If I need it ever again, i will try a standing one.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 05, 2016, 01:52:16 PM
Have you thought about working with a personal trainer at the gym to help with conditioning and stiffness? And to get the right exercise and activity programme for you? Also good for mental strength to work with a professional when have health issues :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 05, 2016, 02:02:43 PM
I have thought about it but I'm afraid of getting someone who doesn't know what they are doing or does stuff that may be harmful whether they know it or not. Other than some occasional stiffness, my back condition doesn't bother me much usually. I'm afraid of setting it off and making it symptomatic by doing some exercise that impacts it negatively whether directly or indirectly.

Also, there are so many different opinions on topics like posture, exercise, PT and the effects of these on healing and pain that I don't know what to believe.  Also, I had a bad experience a long time ago while working with a teacher of a form of body work - that is how my other knee got injured initially actually - a hyperextension injury. So I'm a little wary in general.

I was thinking about maybe finding someone to do some very gentle slow stuff if it makes sense and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 05, 2016, 02:11:43 PM
Ok :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 06, 2016, 07:09:24 PM
Nevermind.
(decided to remove link since it was selling something)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 07, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
Ok. I did briefly see your post but been too busy since to respond. These 'scientific' articles are often not very disguised promotion. Pubmed is usually the place if you want independent expert info on trials etc, or your qualified medical professionals

I avoid 'trade' publications from proponents of alternative or complementary benefits completely. A crock IMO trying to sell snake oil to desperate patients :(
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 07, 2016, 01:04:14 PM
I hear you. That guy seems to be well respected in skeptical communities (pt or otherwise)- which tend to be very anti-alternative medical treatment - but also in many cases anti mainstream treatment unless there is very good scientific evidence for it and a good explanation as to why it works. He claims to base his information soley on studies and points them out about the lack of evidence for benefits of some surgeries, acupuncture, posture correction, core strengthening, some PT, stretching, chiropractry etc and what he calls structuralism  in general. He thinks pain is complicated and may have a strong neurological and other basis then any direct structural cause - since so many people are found to have severe structural issues incidentally and have no pain -  though he feels structure can sometimes be behind pain. He talks a lot about the importance of placebo and especially the potentially negative and dangerous effects of nocebo. But he is selling his research and some of the pages are used as teasers into the sale part. Anyway, I think he is pretty skeptical all around and some of the articles are pretty interesting. I'll leave it at that.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 07, 2016, 01:18:42 PM
Essentially we are all different and need to find what works for us as an individual including the team of trained professionals, be those focused on the physical or psychological

I just don't like people who try to sell stuff or peddle their pseudo-science aka mumbo jumbo without any proper science or properly designed science

I've not got time to read such stuff I'm afraid, nor much interest :)
I'm happy with my doctors and physio
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 07, 2016, 01:21:18 PM
Essentially we are all different and need to find what works for us as an individual including the team of trained professionals, be those focused on the physical or psychological

Sounds good to me! :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 07, 2016, 01:54:14 PM
It's vital with any chronic problem whatever that may be. Trust is really important
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 08, 2016, 08:14:34 PM
And now I've got bloody plantar fasciitis, back on the naproxen!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 08:34:50 PM
That sounds rough. I thought I had that coming on at one point when I was wearing nothing but flip flops and I started stretching the hell out of my foot and then made sure to wear my stability arch support sneakers on for at least part of the day.

Yeah both of my knees are sore today. Not a good past two days with the knee. I think I'm over walking it and doing too much, too much stairs. I'm also sitting way too much. It's a drag.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 08, 2016, 09:03:46 PM
Be wary of getting PFS, carry on stretching
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 09:06:55 PM
Yeah I seem to have headed it off. This was about a month ago. Feet feel fine.

I think I am going to take it a little easier and ease up on the chair too. I just worry that because of my past experience with my quad and muscles and weakness after the injury that they will atrophy quickly if I don't keep them active all the time. But that was different then I think because the bruise was painful and I think shutting down the muscles. That's what I've read anyway, that pain signals shut them down. So the bruise is not really painful anymore so maybe I can get away with a little more resting. When I see OS in couple of weeks I will ask him for script for PT and find a good PT.

Hope that your foot gets better quick!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 09:19:08 PM
Hi Vickster.

When you said PFS were you talking about plantar faciitis or patellofemoral syndrome?

If the latter, what type of stretches? Thanks.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 09:25:50 PM
Okay I think i know what you are talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patellofemoral_pain_syndrome

Thank you for the heads up. I will read up on it.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 08, 2016, 09:47:55 PM
http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/KNEEnotes/primers/patella-primer/patellofemoral-syndrome-pfs

Exercises, stretches, ones I've been given.
Clamshells with/without theraband
Calf raises
Leg raises, front and side
Glute bridges
Wall slides
Hip flexor stretches
Etc

Basic stuff for muscle balance

When do you see a physio?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 09:52:49 PM
Thanks Vickster.

I see the OS for follow up in a 1.5 weeks. At that time I'm going to ask him to give me another script for physical therapy. I've been researching places and I think I found a good one.

Leg raises tend to make my back ache (extension lumbar force on spondlylolisthesis).
I think the others are okay.

I'll check out those exercises.
Meanwhile I am going to cut down on sitting, ease up on walk/stair.



Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 08, 2016, 09:54:34 PM
Get a tennis ball, roll your foot back and forth on it while sitting?
What job do you do?

Get the physio to give you some low impact back strengthening exercises too. Have you tried swimming, very good for all round conditioning
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 10:02:34 PM
It involves sitting. But I could still reduce it and get up more. Ball sounds interesting. I haven't tried swimming - the gym i bought membership to has a small pool. I think i will look into that too. I think I would need a specific script for a back issue to get the physiotherapist/physical therapist to give me exercises for the back, especially if there is a condition. So i would need to see that back doctor first. But I will still inquire.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 10:16:44 PM
I remember now the therapist that I saw for the two sessions said I had a pronounced quad/hamstring imbalance, with strong quads. Part of that I think was due to my back being so stiff and painful it was hard to exert force downward with my leg using hams. Back is better now but still some lumbar stiffness.

I am definitely going to pursue the PT angle. Thanks Vickster.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 08, 2016, 10:17:31 PM
I don't really get why a Physio you are seeing for your knee can't help with your back especially if there's a potential link. Which there may well could be if your muscles are out of balance

Two sessions aren't likely to resolve pronounced or chronic issues, stick with it. My insurer always signs off on 5 sessions as a minimum. You need to stick at it, start slow, work up
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 08, 2016, 10:22:30 PM
I think because some conditions (like spondylolisthesis) have exercise restrictions/limitations. In this case no lumbar extension or twists. It also has some specific exercises in addition to whatever else.

If the therapist has a script to treat knee contusion, that that is what they are supposed to treat. Not a condition like spondlylolisthesis - which has some impact on how you treat the back generally.

I asked the therapist if she could recommend some things and she said no I would need script for it since she wasn't treating my back. On top of that, she did things that aggravated it a little -and I was just generally unhappy with the exercises we were doing which were painful.

Anyways, I'll try again at another place. I was in terrible shape when I went for PT in any case. I'm in much better shape now. I'll see a back doctor if necessary.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 11, 2016, 10:45:26 AM
I had a pretty good experience the other day.

As I said, my knees were pretty sore so I decided to take a rest day especially after reading about PFS- no stairs, no walks, much less "chair" - just resting a lot, watching tv, doing some easy tasks around the house. The tv was stressful, lol, but was distracting for sure. I was scared doing this might set me back since it seemed during the height of the bone bruise pain any resting or prolonged inactivity made my situation worse. So I felt like I was taking a chance on the other hand I thought since the bruise is quiet now maybe my muscles will behave more normally.

So yesterday was my best day yet. Stairs felt normal up and down. There were times that my knee felt very good and "normal". It's a relief since now I know I can rest a little without worry and that it seems to be beneficial as well.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 11, 2016, 01:21:28 PM
Sounds good. Rest is extremely important to allow muscles to recover and heal the micro tears caused by exercise. Just sit in a supportive chair or with leg up
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 30, 2016, 09:28:04 AM
Hi Vickster.

How is your knee doing? Hope it is getting better in terms of the stiffness/pain and everything.

I really overdid it some days ago and feel like I set myself back. I spent all day out doing a lot of knee challenging stuff (going down steep steps) going way past what I do and then had to deal with stuff that came up putting more stress. Now the bruise is hurting a little and my back got really bad (I actually took a tranquilizer to calm it at one point). Now I've gone back to trying to rest more and just going slow, taking short walks outside.

I think I am going to start thinking in terms of 6 months to a year with my knee to really take it carefully and just try a build a safe amount of what I can do and very slowly build on it. I will see knee doctor next week for PT referral and I think i will have to address the back too.

I have a question for you. I have no choice but to deal with three long flights of stairs. Going up is fine, no pain, and seems nearly normal even when knee is acting up. Going down, when knee is at its best (which is relatively rare), I can do it and it seems okay. But when not so great, it is not very comfortable. Would you just push through it and go down or would you go down one step at a time, baby it, until it gets a lot better? This is one time i wished i lived on the ground floor since sometimes I feel like before I even get started with any walking outside my knee is slightly traumatized by the walk down.

Hope you are doing good.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 30, 2016, 09:44:43 AM
Yes, I tend to go down one step at a time, and have adjusted to (at home at least) to go down slightly sideways leading with bad leg.  Out and about, I just go very slowly down stairs.  On the underground escalators, I just stand, the steps are too deep for my knee, painful.

You could try some ice / heat for your knee, see if that helps :)

Knee is more or less as was (not been to gym much, a little cycling at weekends), the plantar fasciitis isn't any better and I had a phone assessment with a physio this morning through my insurance company, agreed to continue the exercises (and naproxen)  before seeing my physio - tbh I just need a break from all the appointments and work is really busy too (not good as haven't been home much so hard to do the exercises but will persevere, I'm sat at my desk rolling my foot)

I see the shoulder surgeon this evening, will discuss if need more surgery to release the tightness, don't feel like there's been any progress since I saw him 2 months ago, he may feel otherwise.  If I have surgery, I'll try to shoehorn it in before Christmas as the office is closed for a week (I'm a contractor and don't get paid sick leave)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 30, 2016, 11:29:38 AM
Funny you mention the escalator - those are the steep/deep steps I'm talking about. I was on one in a mall and it stopped working. Instead of going/climbing back up, I went down. Just one of many bad moves I did over the course of a few days a couple of weeks ago. I'm bummed because I was doing good.. back was much better, knee was improving. I'll just have to sort of start over and go slow and stay slow. I think I'll go down like you describe on the stairs for now until it gets a little better. I'm going to see if I can find a local physiatrist to work with in terms of the back and maybe knee and get referral for pt from him. I had an appointment to see spine specialist/orthopedic surgeon but I don't want to see him since they tend to be surgery focused. I want conservative treatment all the way. I know I needed it but sometimes I regret doing the mri for knee because the lesion kind of scares me a little since there is so much negative stuff about cartilage injuries online and I know I shouldn't but sometimes I read it and get scared. Good luck with the shoulder surgeon.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 30, 2016, 11:35:58 AM
Maybe find a sports musculoskeletal physician rather than a surgeon?

I got the MRI report for my knee, not good but not surprising, full/partial thickness cartilage damage in all compartments, frayed lateral and medial meniscus.  I'll try a hyaluronic acid jab in the new year, give it some lubrication
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 30, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
Yeah I'm going to see what's available near me. I have appt with rehab specialist in a good hospital but he is far and I don't think it is very practical to be going back and forth. I need something closer.

I'm glad to hear that the hylauronic acid works for you. I think you are right. You have to find what works for you. There is so much negative and skeptical stuff online about everything and every procedure it seems. I'm trying to not read so much online and get more active about trying things and looking for what works for me. So far I've learned that pushing beyond my capabilities does not work.

Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 30, 2016, 11:50:46 AM
I think a physiatrist is a sort of sports musculoskeletal physician.

I'm going to get one and work with him/her to address both knee/back. I'll follow up with knee OS as I am supposed to and then use physiatrist to treat the issues ongoing.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on November 30, 2016, 11:52:46 AM
Ah ok, don't know, you guys have different specialties to some extent (or at least different names)

Hopefully the HA will help as it has, the damage is more widespread and seemingly deeper now, so will see, ah well...I'll look forward to the TKR in 10-20 years!

Good luck :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on November 30, 2016, 12:05:29 PM
Reading more it seems they are a little different but mostly similar - they use conservative treatments, exercise, pt, meds etc.

 Thanks Vickster. Good luck to you too.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on December 01, 2016, 10:42:58 AM
Vickster: where you doing steps/stairs like that prior to your most recent knee injury after stepping out of bath or is that what you are doing now with the most recent injury?
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on December 01, 2016, 12:39:07 PM
Nope I've probably been doing it since the original injury 7 years ago, at least on and off. Probably not helped by my super tight calf muscles

Oh and need more surgery to release the tightness in my shoulder, being done on 21st
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on December 01, 2016, 04:35:15 PM
Ok. Good luck with the surgery.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on December 01, 2016, 04:44:35 PM
I'll be asleep, all down to the surgeon :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on May 05, 2017, 10:13:05 AM
Thought I'd stop by and give a quick update on my knee injury situation.

Knee is much better now after getting worse for a while. I'd say it's 100% better and pretty much back to normal. Back is also much better. Was a nightmare and now glad that it is over. Hope everyone is doing well.
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on May 05, 2017, 10:46:56 AM
Good to hear that the BB resolved
Stick to swimming and biking (on a correctly sized and set up bike), much more knee and back friendly than jogging :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on May 05, 2017, 12:03:25 PM
Thanks Vickster. I was checking out bikes yesterday... so expensive! I'm going to pick up something soon. Hope you are doing well!
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: vickster on May 05, 2017, 12:10:01 PM
Hobbling along, foot problems unfortunately

If you do get a bike, please please make sure you get it from a proper bike shop and get a proper fitting :)
Title: Re: Hurt my knee - Bone Bruise
Post by: tensters on May 05, 2017, 12:21:42 PM
Sorry to hear that. I hope you feel better soon. Oh yes, this bike store won't let you buy a bike without measuring you and then tuning up the bike etc.