KNEEtalk

The OSTEOARTHRITIS DEPARTMENT => KNEE ARTHRITIS - Articular cartilage repair => CARTILAGE REPAIR - Stem cell procedures (eg Regenexx) => Topic started by: Scooter72 on March 09, 2011, 02:59:11 PM

Title: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 09, 2011, 02:59:11 PM
I am going to blog my experiences with the Centeno-Schultz clinic here, so as to "spread the word".  Keep in mind, I am not affiliated with them in any way, other than being a (future) patient of theirs. 

I will try to be dispassionate about my experiences, and simply serve the information.  I don't care too much about the superficialities, such as how "nicely" I am treated by staff, or whether or not I like the doctors personally.  (Keeping in mind that there are bare-minimum expectations of civility, of course!)  None of that matters in the end, as long as my knee improves a lot.

So, where am I at right now?  I just completed the consult.  Amazing.. Dr. Schultz caught some things on my recent MRI that were not mentioned in the official report, nor has it ever been mentioned in many previous meetings with physical therapists or my OS!  Namely, I may have a lax ACL, and may have a meniscus tear.  Wow.. this would explain the why/how I have cartilage damage in the first place, and if it proves true after examination on my first appointment with the Centeno-Schultz (CS) clinic, then I  will be relieved, but miffed at the same time.  I have already had mfx surgery, but even if that had proved successful, it would have only treated a symptom of the larger problem (i.e. lax ACL caused joint instability).

Long story short on my currently assessed knee problem according to MRI, and without an appointment at CS clinic: I have grade 2 chondromalacia of the patella with OA of the lateral femoral consoyles, possible meniscus tear, and possible lax ACL.

Will find time for a trip to Colorado, and post more afterwards.

Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: ashok_guru on March 09, 2011, 04:20:04 PM
Thanks scooter for posting your experiences.
I already had a consultation with Dr. Hanson, am planning to have one more before I could plan my trip to colorado.
Good luck with your treatment and looking forward to read your experiences with Regenexx.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 09, 2011, 04:40:16 PM
Thanks scooter for posting your experiences.
I already had a consultation with Dr. Hanson, am planning to have one more before I could plan my trip to colorado.
Good luck with your treatment and looking forward to read your experiences with Regenexx.

Thanks Ashok.  Please post your experiences as well.  I think Regenexx is offering fantastic alternative to traditional invaseive surgeries.  MACI/ACI are still traumatic relative to PRP or MSC therapies, and as I have stated elsewhere, I don't want to go through another major surgery.  Mfx was enough for me! Lol... 

The only downside, of course, is cost.  However, speaking for myself, I think quality of life, and long-term consequences of going untreated are more depressing compared to any debt incurred. 

One last thing that I forgot to mention in my initial post: I have been classified as a fair candidate, mostly due to having mfx surgery beforehand.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 14, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
Just an update.  I will be going to the clinic on April 28th, and leaving Colorado on May 2nd.  Will write of my experiences while I am there.  I am opting to stay in a hotel instead of flying back and forth in the lag period between my prolo injection and my SD procedure.  Therefore, I will comment on the hotel and surroundings as well.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Lottiefox on March 14, 2011, 08:48:51 PM
Scooter!

Good luck! I had a consult with Dr Centeno about 15 months ago. I found him to be honest, thorough and realistic. I was classified as Fair too, because I have damage in two compartments. He also identified possible ACL attenuation and said he would treat that too.

Can you just confirm what Regenexx are now able to do? When I consulted with them it was the initial visit for draw, expansion and then injection 10 days or so later. Then two further visits for the rest of the treatments. Are you UK based? I have to say, we were seriously tempted but symptoms calmed and I've avoided the dreaded MFX. I can only think they are doing wonderful things - cost is of course of a factor but if it gets you relief without further invasive surgeries then so be it.

Keep us posted and LOADS of good wishes,

Lottie
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 15, 2011, 01:34:08 PM
Thank you for the well-wishes Lottie!  I am not UK based, although I do have friends in the UK, and one of them I acquainted with through this site.  Hopefully, I can provide some framework experiences for those who are "on-the-fence" about doing this.   Glad to hear your symptoms calmed to the point of avoiding mfx.  My surgeon was skillful and kind, but the procedure itself is brutal, if you read up on it. 

I am not sure about the full range of Regenexx therapies, outside of what I have read from the site.  I do know that they are not allowed to culture cells anymore, once they have extracted them out of the bone marrow, due to FDA intervention.  What they do now is draw the mesenchymal stem cells from the bone marrow and then concentrate them, which is different from culturing.  Then, they re-inject.  I am having the prolotherapy, to induce inflammation in the area (which is a key first step to getting good results down the line), then waiting three days and then having the Regenexx-SD procedure (i.e. concentrating the stem cells before injecting into the knee).  The whole cost of this for me, including the hotel stay, will be about $6000 USD.

I am hoping one injection is enough.  But we'll see.  I certainly want to feel results after one injection (albeit I am wise enough to realize it will take a couple of months).
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: dg on March 17, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
I'm starting my Regenexx-SD treatment next week. I have a medial and lateral tear and mucoid degeneration in my right knee.

I had a medial mensicus repair a few years ago on my left knee which failed. I also had DVT from that surgery. I started PRP and prolo with Dr. Hauser in Chicago last month. No change so far, but you have to be patient with these things.

So, I'm trying two alternatives. My right knee is much worse than my left.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: kevin3004 on March 17, 2011, 06:26:04 PM
Thank you for the well-wishes Lottie!  I am not UK based, although I do have friends in the UK, and one of them I acquainted with through this site.  Hopefully, I can provide some framework experiences for those who are "on-the-fence" about doing this.   Glad to hear your symptoms calmed to the point of avoiding mfx.  My surgeon was skillful and kind, but the procedure itself is brutal, if you read up on it. 

I am not sure about the full range of Regenexx therapies, outside of what I have read from the site.  I do know that they are not allowed to culture cells anymore, once they have extracted them out of the bone marrow, due to FDA intervention.  What they do now is draw the mesenchymal stem cells from the bone marrow and then concentrate them, which is different from culturing.  Then, they re-inject.  I am having the prolotherapy, to induce inflammation in the area (which is a key first step to getting good results down the line), then waiting three days and then having the Regenexx-SD procedure (i.e. concentrating the stem cells before injecting into the knee).  The whole cost of this for me, including the hotel stay, will be about $6000 USD.

I am hoping one injection is enough.  But we'll see.  I certainly want to feel results after one injection (albeit I am wise enough to realize it will take a couple of months).
Best of luck Scot hope it works out well for you
Cheers
Kevin
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 17, 2011, 09:56:05 PM
Thank you for the well-wishes Lottie!  I am not UK based, although I do have friends in the UK, and one of them I acquainted with through this site.  Hopefully, I can provide some framework experiences for those who are "on-the-fence" about doing this.   Glad to hear your symptoms calmed to the point of avoiding mfx.  My surgeon was skillful and kind, but the procedure itself is brutal, if you read up on it. 

I am not sure about the full range of Regenexx therapies, outside of what I have read from the site.  I do know that they are not allowed to culture cells anymore, once they have extracted them out of the bone marrow, due to FDA intervention.  What they do now is draw the mesenchymal stem cells from the bone marrow and then concentrate them, which is different from culturing.  Then, they re-inject.  I am having the prolotherapy, to induce inflammation in the area (which is a key first step to getting good results down the line), then waiting three days and then having the Regenexx-SD procedure (i.e. concentrating the stem cells before injecting into the knee).  The whole cost of this for me, including the hotel stay, will be about $6000 USD.

I am hoping one injection is enough.  But we'll see.  I certainly want to feel results after one injection (albeit I am wise enough to realize it will take a couple of months).
Best of luck Scot hope it works out well for you
Cheers
Kevin

Will let you know how it goes, as it goes.  Hope all is  relatively well with you.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: markld on March 18, 2011, 12:15:05 AM
People; stop wasting your money on this crap!!!!  This stuff is fraudulent and there is no legit science to back it up....  Stop holding out hope for a pipe dream......
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 18, 2011, 02:39:17 AM
People; stop wasting your money on this crap!!!!  This stuff is fraudulent and there is no legit science to back it up....  Stop holding out hope for a pipe dream......

And your proof for this is...?  And your science background is...?  Care to elaborate?

edited to add: I just read this guy's total posting history, and to be blunt, I feel sorry for him.  Failed mfx and failed ACI in the past for him.  Further, this is not the only thread in which he has "attacked" a procedure or questioned someone's sincerity with regards to the results of a procedure they have had.

Mark, I am an individual with a very strong molecular biology background, and do research.  I understand the background for this therapy, and have read peer-reviewed papers and case study's on the Regenexx site.  I am not the kind of person to waste a lot of money, effort and time on something like this.. a therapy that I am counting on to improve my knee problem.

Mark, I really hope your Denovo NT works; you deserve to be pain free.  In the meantime, do not project your anger blindly upon others here, and in the process, possibly deter others from engaging in a therapy that could significantly improve their quality of life.  At the very least, read up on the regenexx protocols before criticizing them, and look at the results patients have obtained.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: jonhark on March 18, 2011, 04:10:30 AM
I gotta support Mark on this one. Why the HELL is there even a thread for Regenexx on this site? It isn't even close to be a viable cartilage repair procedure. Give me a frickin' break!!

 If surgically implanting autologous chrondrocytes under a membrane in a defect only provides a 50-70 percent chance of success, how does injecting stem cells blindly into the knee (without a membrane to contain) heal a chondral defect? Why aren't the leading cartilage repair specialists in the US  participating or involved with REgennex?

 My personal experience with Prolotherapy and other similar injections is that they are a big SCAM. No legitimate ortho believes in it or practices it.

I'm sure Regenexx would be a nice adjunct to ACI or Denovo....but no way and no how it is going to heal a grade 4 defect in the knee and give patients long-term pain-relief. Give me a frickin' break!!
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: markld on March 18, 2011, 05:12:12 AM
Scooter,

Sounds like you may have some sort of interest in or ties to Regenexx.... Do you happen to work for Centeno????? How many of the trials have the FDA reviewed? Perhaps none?

My Dr is one of the top cartilage repair surgeons in the country and does not participate in this nonsense.

Let me know when AJSM publishes positive results for this so called therapy.

Last I heard the FDA was in the process of shuting down regenexx.

As far as anger goes, you seem to be the only one here that is angry, then again I may be too if I had an interest in Regenexx....

My research goes far and beyond what you could possibly imagine, not to mention that I have personally spoken with several experts in the field of cartilage repair and needless to say they don't concure with your reasoning.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 18, 2011, 05:14:18 AM
To everyone viewing this thread, I'd like to point out that "jonhark" is being illogical, and at best, is ignorant about the Regenexx procedure.  To address his baseless attacks, one-by-one:

1) There is a thread for Regenexx, because there are case studies showing it IS a viable for initiation of cartilage growth, and the papers concerning MSCs support this fact.

2) The stem cells aren't injected "blindly".  (Again, showing ignorance of the procedure) For a basic explanation, in context of an actual "successful" case study, look at this link:

http://www.regenexx.com/2011/03/another-stem-cell-knee-arthritis-success-in-an-avid-skier/

3) Who are the "leading cartilage repair" specialists?  How is that defined?  I get the feeling you define it as whomever is most proficient at performing the currently "acceptable" procedures (e.g. Mfx, ACI etc...) regardless of the efficacy of such procedures.

4) So prolotherapy "and other similar injections"?  What does that even mean? There are MANY kinds of "different injections", to use your superbly specific terminology.  

The "gold standard" surgery, mfx, has a spotty track record at best, yet it is still performed routinely.  According to your logic though, it is "superior" because it is currently accepted as a treatment.

You can't use sheer negativity and angst to support your views.  Go look at the Regenexx site, and dispute the science.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 18, 2011, 05:28:02 AM
I don't have any ties to Regenexx, other than the fact I will be treated in about 1.5 months, at the clinic. 

I could care less about FDA approval; this is a matter of science, not politics.

AJSM is one of thousands of journals, and whether or not they have published in it has nothing to do with anything.  The modality is only a few years old, and like anything new, will be scrutinized and diminished in deference to "established" therapies. 

The FDA is shutting down Regenexx?  Inaccurate statement on your part.

You say your research "goes far and beyond", but have yet to throw ANY scientific mettle my way.  None.  For me, you "sound" like a layman who has spoken to a few doctors, and is trying to parrot them (unsuccessfully) in an attempt at bravado.  I told you, I have the background, and if you want to really have a debate, you must step up to my level.  Or not.

Otherwise, why are you in this thread?  Acting like ole "W", with simpleton-like statements equivalent to the wit of a two-year old, won't cut it here.  If you are really "concerned" for people who might seek Regenexx as a treatment, state the technicals of WHY it won't work.  Don't just say, "there's no way it can work",  because some doctors (who know nothing about stem cells or molecular biology or biochemistry or anything else remotely related to the basic sciences) spew it.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 18, 2011, 05:41:05 AM
Wow, gotta point out a glaring coincidence here...

"jonhark" and "markld" were treated by the same doctor, both for ACI, and both have had ACI failure, and are seeking other treatment. 

Guys, again, don't direct your anger here, and possibly deter others from seeking a treatment that may improve their quality of life. 

Tell you guys what, I will continue to post my experiences.  Make a judgement from that, ok?

And to verify my identity and thus eliminate concerns over deception, I volunteer to be contacted by the administrator of this site.  I will give the administrator my info, and he/she can confirm that I do have a science background, and that I am active at a research institution here in the USA.

Does this sound reasonable to you two "boo-birds"?  (If not, I have no idea what could possibly convince you)
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: rob wilson on March 18, 2011, 02:41:18 PM
I have had so many orthopedic conditions improved by prolotherapy, PRP, HGH, and Regenexx. Not magic but it can work. Different injections work for different issues. The problem is that it is expensive and many times you need MANY injections.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: jonhark on March 18, 2011, 03:06:37 PM
HaHa, you are really witty and entertaining Scooter. For someone whose never had this procedure, you seem way too big an advocate. Were you that big an advocate of microfracture before it failed? Oh by the way, microfracture is a 1980's technology and not the "gold standard" in cartilage repair. Cell-based concepts like ACI and Denovo NT are gold standard. I tell you what. You provide a 1 year post op MRI of your knee with 100% cartilage fill after Regenexx and we'll compare it  to my two sucessful ACI surgeries which resurfaced a combined 14 CM^2. Until then, stop selling your snake oil online and gimme a break buddy.

PS: Would love to debate you on politics as well. You gotta be a raging lib to reference "W" on a knee site. That would be fun. 
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: markld on March 18, 2011, 04:04:11 PM
Scooter, Are you always this truculent with those whom simply disagree with you?

Wow you have a science background Scooter? Am I supposed to be impressed by that? What about the other thousand folks who have a science background, are they wrong if they disagree with you? Simply having a science background does not make you the foremost authority on the matter....

As far as Jon and I having the same surgeon goes simply couln't be farther from the truth. Jon had his surgery in Boston and I had mine in California. Don't know where you are getting your info, but it's about as acurate as the rest of the crap that you continue to spew......

I don't need to prove any of the ascertations in which I make here, however the burden of proof lies with you, since this is new science and there is no concrete evidence to back up a word you say, so SHOW ME THE MONEY, in other words, PROVE IT, give some convincing evidence, before and after radiographs etc that demonstarte complete fill....

To anyone reading this, you may want to ask yourself; why does this guy take this stuff so personal with the attacks and insults that he wages, especially for someone whom claims not to have a horse in this race. Hard to believe this guy is not somehow affiliated with Regenexx given his odious behavior.
Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: Scooter72 on March 18, 2011, 06:55:47 PM
Jonhark, from your previous post history, I picked up that one of your ACIs failed.  Is this not so?  And I picked up from previous posts, that you both had the same Dr.  Perhaps I was mistaken, but your posts seemed to indicate it.  At the very least, I am sure that both of you have expressed disappointment over having failed ACIs. 
And Jon, I am perfectly willing to report my successes or failures here, with regards to Regenexx.  That was the point of opening this thread.. you know, the one which you decided to visit for some odd reason(s).

Mark, I was not an “advocate” of mfx before I had it, I was indifferent based on what I had read. I did it because statistics show it has worked for a subset of those with small lesions.  Initially, my lesion was small on the MRI, but when the Dr went in, it ended up being much larger due to cartilage flaking off the periphery of the lesion easily upon debridement.  So at that point (and I remember this since I was conscious for the surgery and observing a monitor), what was I supposed to do?  I took a chance with it, and it didn't quite work.  No fault of the surgeons, or the team of health care professionals (i.e. PTs and nurses) who were involved.

Mark, you say the "burden of proof" lies with me?  I provided at least one link to the Regenexx site with case studies and explanations of the procedure.  It's not just for show either.. they discuss the science and statistics. If you don't want to take the time to look, then there is no point in arguing with you, because, you choose ignorance and obtusity.

  You say that having a science background doesn't mean I am "the foremost" authority? Honestly, any impartial observer would look at that statement and laugh.  It’s akin to Homer Simpson walking up to Susskind and telling him, “Just because you have a background in theoretical psychics.. err I mean physics and err.. umm.. that stringie theoree, doesn’t mean you can tell me how the universe started!” (Doh!) Nice strawman there.. but the fact is that I do understand what is likely going on at the cellular (and molecular) level, with respect to this procedure.  So yes, unless you have a similar background and/or understanding, then I am far more of an "authority" than you or Jon. 
Rob, understand that it may take multiple injections for some.  I was graded in the “fair” category by Dr. Schultz in part, due to my previous mfx surgery.  I cannot be sure, but it’s possible that I would be in the “good” category if I had no prior mfx history.  So if you, or anyone else has had multiple invasive procedures done to the knee, that would be ONE factor in determining how well Regenexx-SD would work, IMO.

One final question to Mark and Jon: Why are you here, in this thread?  You don’t believe in the procedure, then tell us why?  There are case studies and hard-core papers in reputable scientific journals to support this modality of treatment. 

Ignorance is one thing, but deliberate ignorance coupled with verbalization off flawed opinion is dangerous.  There are people here that are caught between a “rock and a hard place”.  I personally know two such people, who have had invasive surgeries (knee and spine respectively) only to experience failure.  They are scared.  Their doctors have “politely” abandoned them, saying there is nothing more that can surgically be done.  Stem cell treatments such as that employed by Regenexx are the future, and may be helpful in their CURRENT form. 
Mark and Jon, here is one basic paper explaining MSC therapy, with a case study included in it.  Some of the jargon may be foreign to you, but I would be happy to answer questions.

Follow this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18786777

Click on the "Elsevier full text" radio button in the top right, and then proceed to download the pdf file (it's free).


Title: Re: Consult with Centeno-Schultz clinic
Post by: The KNEEguru on March 18, 2011, 07:11:12 PM
Too much aggro here ...

Both viewpoints have been aired - am locking this thread now.