KNEEtalk

The OSTEOARTHRITIS DEPARTMENT => KNEE ARTHRITIS - Injections into the joint => Topic started by: gb on February 05, 2009, 10:33:50 PM

Title: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on February 05, 2009, 10:33:50 PM
ok. Given the joint disease epidemic gripping our nations and its people, my topic heading is a powerful statement to make and is sure to be of special interest to fellow citizens who all share the same joint degeneration disease i do, which is why I want to share my findings with everyone on this board.

So what is my story ?  16 or 17 years ago I had reconstructive surgery on my ACL and PCL. Both ligaments had been completely torn. Also, during the surgery, my surgeon uncovered damage to my lateral meniscus. So he removed that part of the meniscus damaged. I was fine afterwards. BUT........over the ensuing 15 years, due to an active lifestyle of sport, my knee began to degenerate to the point where my lateral meniscus was 60% gone (it had further degenerated) gradual increase in ligament laxity (causing lots of pain) and articular cartilage badly damaged. my MRI last year showed something the doctor explained as "a cratered moon" lots of holes :). about 5 years away from bone on bone.

Imagine, only 36 years old, and I can't play/run with my dog or bike uphill. I was desperate.

In September 2008, my research into degenerative arthritis lead me to founding out about prolotherapy and Platelet Rich Plasma. PRP is the acronym, and means, and i quote from a source per definition "blood plasma with concentrated platelets. The concentrated platelets found in PRP include growth factors among the huge reservoirs of bioactive proteins that are vital to initiate and accelerate tissue repair and regeneration. These bioactive proteins increase stem cell production to initiate connective tissue healing, bone regeneration and repair, promote development of new blood vessels and stimulate the wound healing process."

As most people suffering from joint disease already know....joints are avascular....meaning there is very little blood circulating in our joints to trigger healing when damage to our ligament, or tendon or cartilage is made due to sport or accident.

So how does PRP work ? This is how I've experienced it each time I visit my MD. Using a syringe, the nurse withdraws something like 30 -60 cc of blood from your arm, then is placed in a centrifuge. The centrifuge spins and separates the plasma from the blood producing the PRP. This increases the concentration of platelets and growth factors up to 500%. When PRP is injected into the damaged area it stimulates the tendon or ligament causing mild inflammation that triggers the healing cascade. As a result new collagen begins to develop. As this collagen matures it begins to shrink causing the tightening and strengthening of the tendons and ligaments of the damaged area.

My first treatment for PRP injections came in September 2008. I found the most prominent doctor with the longest and best track record around, and made sure he was an MD. There is not just one injection, but up to 30 small injections all around the knee...he covers the entire area. Knee swells for 2 days and healing begins immediately.

I've had 5 injections in 5 months, spaced 4-6 weeks apart. The results have been very good to date. I began to notice pain begin to creap away after 2-3 weeks of my first injection. after my second injection, I could play around with my dog, and maneuver side to side with sharp cuts in and around the playground. That was a sure sign I was on to something good.

the order in which progress occurred....
1. pain begins to diminish and go away while walking (injection 1 and injection 2, 3, 4)
2. ligament feels tighter and stronger (same as above)
3. crunching begins to diminish. (this only occurred until after my 5th injection) it varies from patient to patient i would assume)

To me, the diminished crunching in my knee might is indicative of the PRP regenerating the cartilage....but I won't really know until i have a second MRI...either way the knee is feeling good and i'm happy.

I'm due for my 6th set of injection in a few weeks, and i'll keep the board up to date on my progress.

I plan on having a second set of MRI taken at the end of my PRP treatments...to compare with the initial set of MRI done before treatment began 6 months ago. This will tell me if the cartilage grew back.   

Hope I've added something meaningful to the forum.


George Bazos
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Saverio on February 12, 2009, 02:30:00 PM
Hi George,

Your post is interesting.  It is somewhat similar to regenexx but without the stem cells processing.  I was hoping more people would comment on your post.  Anybody out there have similar experiences with PRP?

Saverio
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: sp7 on February 12, 2009, 04:18:52 PM
...........

My first treatment for PRP injections came in September 2008. I found the most prominent doctor with the longest and best track record around, and made sure he was an MD.

George, this is intriguing. What kind of MD does this? An orthopedist or some other kind of MD? How many MDs know about this and do this? Is there some central website or outfit that helps people find such qualified MDs who do this?


Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on February 12, 2009, 06:18:40 PM
SP7 - I gathered a list of locations that do Prolotherapy in the U.S, researched their websites and called them up. Maybe 2 or 3 had MD that do the injectionss. I chose caringmedical in Chicago, it's MD appears to have the best track record, most experience with Prolotherapy/{R{ injections. Apprently the number of injections per session and placement of the injections is critical to progress.

Prior to choosing PRP treatments or even having heard of it, I saw 2 surgeons, one was the head knee guy for an NHL team, I won't name names,  and the other was the head knee guy for an MLB team. The first doctor recommended an osteotemy ( a big knee procedure cutting into my bone) and the other said my best option was to buy a knee brace and use glucosemin and MSM and just "deal" with my Osteoarthritis. Neither was an option for me as i wanted to continue an active life style.

My understanding is most MD's won't recommend prolotherapy nor PRP injections due to the fact there's nothing for pharmaceuticals to patent and no big money to be made. It's unclear to me if this plays a factor in what surgeons recommend. I'll let you decide.
Title: Re: Lee B and PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Dr. Centeno on February 15, 2009, 08:06:59 PM
Wow!  I'm always amazed at how the internet is such a great discussion generating tool.  It's been a few months since I checked this site.  Just to clarify a few points:

1.  I was surprised to see Lee Bucker posting here.  I know Lee owns a commercial cell therapy industry blog and I have communicated with Lee as he relayed.  My comments to his concerns are posted at http://celltherapyblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/regenexx-vs-fda-2009.html?showComment=1234374420000#c5662649568093779579

2.  We have used prolotherapy for years and still use this technique.  Prolo is what I call Regenerative Medicine 1.0.  It's the injection of a substance to prompt an inflammatory healing response.  It works great on ligaments and chronic tendon enthesopathies.  It brings the patients own growth factors and cellular mechanisms to bear.  The upside of prolo is that it's very inexpensive and simple to deploy.  The downside is that because there is big biologic variability in growth factor quality, blood supply, and healing potential of patients, it has a reasonably high failure rate.  However, because of it's low expense and ease of use with limited downside, it's a great technique to try. 

3.  PRP and BMAC have also been discussed here.  PRP uses a bedside centrifuge to spin down platelets and concentrate them.  Platelets have all kinds of great growth factors including PDGF, TGF-beta, IGF, FGF, etc...  This type of technology is great for helping to heal things that are close to healing on their own.  Hence it's been used by many athletes to get them back into the game more quickly.

BMAC is what Dr. Lee does.  It uses a bedside centrifuge to spin down the nucleated cell fraction of a bone marrow aspirate.  About 1 in 50,000-500,000 of those cells is a stem cell capable of orthopedic repair.  We used BMAC in 2005-2006 and even published one interesting case report.  See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16886034?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum  The problem we experienced was that BMAC didn't have enough stem cells in it to help most patients.  After we used it for a year and treated 10 patients or so with pre/post MRI's, we abandoned it in favor of what the research community has done for years, which is to grow mesenchymal stem cells in culture to much larger numbers.  There is a post on this issue here: http://www.regenexx.com/2009/02/bone-marrow-nucleated-cell-concentrate-bmac-is-it-concentrated-enough/ 

I would call these centrifuge based treatments (PRP and BMAC) that concentrate autologous (the patient's own) blood products "Regenerative Medicine 2.0". 

4.  I would call what we do "Regenerative Medicine 3.0".  This is what has gotten big pharma and it's representatives so upset.  In our medical practice, we isolate and then culture expand mesenchymal stem cells in our state of the art cGTP lab in Colorado.  This allows us to deploy thousands of times more stem cells capable of orthopedic repair than could be mustered with the 2.0 techniques (BMAC).  We didn't start seeing reliable results with patients until we started using this procedure to grow stem cells for short periods of time in culture.  While using a centrifuge and doing this at the bedside is easier, you just can get enough orthopedic repair cells in my opinion. 

Hope this helps.  Thanks for the kind words!

Chris Centeno, M.D.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on February 18, 2009, 05:58:03 PM
This just out....

PRP NYTimes article - dated February 17, 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/sports/17blood.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=PRP&st=cse

Quote from Hines Ward of the Pittsburg Steelers:
"The technique played its most glaring role with Mr. Ward, a receiver who left that Baltimore game in the first quarter with a sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his right knee. The next day, he was injected with a form of PRP therapy called autologous conditioned plasma, which features different proportions of platelets and other cells. Along with strenuous rehabilitation and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, Ward recovered enough to make two catches in the Super Bowl, in which the Steelers beat the Arizona Cardinals.

“I was next in line, the next guinea pig,” Mr. Ward said, referring to Mr. Polamalu’s experience with platelet-rich plasma. “I think it really helped me. The injury that I had was a severe injury, maybe a four- or six-week injury. In order for me to go out there and play in two weeks, I don’t think anyone with a grade-2 M.C.L. sprain gets back that fast.”"

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 04, 2009, 03:51:45 PM
I received my 6th series of PRP and prolotherapy injections 2 weeks ago at CaringMedical in Chicago and here is the update:

Following the treatment, I  waited a bit longer this time around before returning to my exercise routine. I rested a week following the injections to give time for swelling, usual bruising to disappear and for the full range of motion to return. Typically 2-3 days is good enough, just being extra cautious.

during the second week following injection however I upped my activity level to 4 workouts in 7 days. 2 days on the stationary bike, at an intense level for a full 90 minutes, maintaining RPM as high as I could. and 2 days on the Elliptical, which mimics the running motion and I'm told is a good indicator of whether i'll be able to  return to outdoor jogging.

Prognosis....my knee is feeling great. It is more stable than ever and feels at its strongest isince i began treatment 6 months ago.

Remember, I could NOT ride a stationary bike nor walk without experiencing significant pain in the knee joint prior to starting PRP treatment. Today, i feel no pain at all while biking or strenuously riding the elliptical. I feel some strain around the knee cap during heavy riding uphill when the difficulty level jumps to its highest level, but it's minimal and I feel no pain in and around the area of the lateral meniscus which was torn in the rear of my right knee and where last years  x-rays show almost 75% deterioration of my cartilage.

Yesterday also marked my 6 month anniversary since I began PRP treatment on my knee.

I will be returning for a 7th series of injections in 6-8 weeks because i do still have crunching in the knee. The crunching appears to have diminished and that is encouragement enough to continue with the treatment. I think i might wait another 3 months afterwards before having another MRI and x-rays done to evaluate the knee and compare with last years photos.

In my opinion, recovery has not been as fast as I had hoped, meaning the knee seemed to just slightly improve after each visit to the doc, but collectively, from month 1 to month 6, the knee has improved by overall 80%. Patience and commitment. I sense that my ligaments responded very quickly at the beginning and very well to PRP, but there was a lot more damage in my knee than just the ligaments. there is the meniscus, and articular cartilage to heal, and I sense that they are repairing itself. otherwise why is the range of motion improving, crunching diminishing and pain disappearing. Could it be from just he ligament improving...don't really know.  Anyways, hopefully the x-rays will show the improvement to the cartilage, I'll be sure to share the results to the general community here when available.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 08, 2009, 04:33:37 PM
I am sooo glad somone else had success with prolo.  I am currently undergoing it with my ankle and can't rave enough about it.  It has been 4 months since I started. 

Was the ozone generated by a machine?   My prolotherapist is very open to new ideas and tries different methods on me.  I would like to suggest the ozone as I have read a bit about it but haven't pushed the doc for it.

Ben



I had a subluxed fibular head injury from a fall.

Prolotherapy is effectively stabilizing the area at the distal and proximal ends. My physician is using a combination of dextrose and ozone.  He also injected Ozone into my knee joint. It is painfree after articular cart damage and a meniscuc tear from same fall. I am VERY pleased with the results so far -- 7 months since first series-- I expect complete healing. (My progress is hampered by a secondary issue) Even if I have to go for "tune -ups," so to speak, that's still better than the alternative.

This has been a real blessing and sure beats the surgical options, which didn't sound pleasant no matter how the options were worded. Not to mention the PT required afterwards.

I am SOOO thankful for prolotherapy.


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 08, 2009, 04:41:04 PM
In my opinion, recovery has not been as fast as I had hoped, meaning the knee seemed to just slightly improve after each visit to the doc, but collectively, from month 1 to month 6, the knee has improved by overall 80%. Patience and commitment. I sense that my ligaments responded very quickly at the beginning and very well to PRP, but there was a lot more damage in my knee than just the ligaments. there is the meniscus, and articular cartilage to heal, and I sense that they are repairing itself. otherwise why is the range of motion improving, crunching diminishing and pain disappearing. Could it be from just he ligament improving...don't really know.  Anyways, hopefully the x-rays will show the improvement to the cartilage, I'll be sure to share the results to the general community here when available.

My doc indicated that in such cases of degraded cartilage and ligaments (similar to mine in my ankle) that FULL recovery will take over a year or even 18 months.  I too am 7 months into my recovery.  Thank god for Prolotherapy and PRP.  However, I started with HGH injections to rebuild the cartilage and moved to PRP because they were cheaper and my doc suggested different modalities to keep the body from "getting used" to just HGH shots.  Maybe you should try a few HGH shots?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 09, 2009, 10:12:32 PM
irentat - thanks for the post. you brought up some interesting points which led me to ask questions of my doctor.

After some investigation and advice from nurses and doctors, I've decided to switch from PRP over tot HGH treatment and Gluscosamine shots combined with prolotherapy to address the additional crunching in my knee and to hopefully regenerate some or all of the articular cartilage in my knee.  The PRP treatment rid me of the pain i was feeling in my knee, likely resolving the ligament laxity pervasive in the knee. But it seemed to not really do much for the cartilage. Lots HGH documentation supporting cartilage regrowth on the Web, and doctors recommending it, this suggest I should do HGH injections next. 

So to recap, PRP resolved the pain in my knee, strengthening the ligament laxity over a period of 6 injections over a 6 month window, and now I'm switching over to HGH to resolve the Crunching and hopefully regenerate the cartilage.

BTW Irentat, i made some inquiries and I was informed by the medical community that the body does not get "used to" PRP as your platelets are not a drug and tolerance will not develop.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 09, 2009, 10:39:03 PM
irentat - thanks for the post. you brought up some interesting points which led me to ask questions of my doctor.

After some investigation and advice from nurses and doctors, I've decided to switch from PRP over tot HGH treatment and Gluscosamine shots combined with prolotherapy to address the additional crunching in my knee and to hopefully regenerate some or all of the articular cartilage in my knee.  The PRP treatment rid me of the pain i was feeling in my knee, likely resolving the ligament laxity pervasive in the knee. But it seemed to not really do much for the cartilage. Lots HGH documentation supporting cartilage regrowth on the Web, and doctors recommending it, this suggest I should do HGH injections next. 

So to recap, PRP resolved the pain in my knee, strengthening the ligament laxity over a period of 6 injections over a 6 month window, and now I'm switching over to HGH to resolve the Crunching and hopefully regenerate the cartilage.

BTW Irentat, i made some inquiries and I was informed by the medical community that the body does not get "used to" PRP as your platelets are not a drug and tolerance will not develop.

gb

I reread all your posts and now realize you never did receive intra-articular PRP.  Am I correct?  My use of PRP was intra-articlular only.  I have not heard of PRP being used as a ligament rebuilder, a ligament healer but not rebuilder as the common dextrose solution in Prolotherapy is designed to do.  I have only done dextrose and the like directly applied to my ligaments but not intra-articular.  I have been through 4 cycles of dextrose based Prolotherapy since November.  I will ask my Prolotherapist about using PRP in the ligaments.  He is open to new stuff.

As for the PRP and the HGH and body tolerance, I can see where PRP would not apply.  However, I am not sure if HGH might cause the body to get lazy after having many shots.  I am no expert but it would seem to me to be the case.  Please do it, if only to see if there is a difference between the two modalities.  You starting PRP first and going to HGH would be the opposite of me starting HGH (7 shots) and then going to PRP (2 shots so far).  We can compare as I had my first shot of HGH mid August 08 after my surgery.

How much HGH were you intending to use per shot and how often?  I ask because of my direct experience with Dr. Dunn and what he accomplished with my ankle and the cartilage I rebuilt.  The knee requires much more per shot than most people realize.

Good luck,
Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 10, 2009, 03:48:23 PM
Irentat - I received a PRP injection into the knee. THey withdrew about 50-60 cc of blood from my arm, spun it in a centrifuge to isolate the growth factors (platelets) and re-injected ~ 4 cc of isolated Platelets directly into the damaged knee joint.  My understanding is that PRP will NOT work if you have a completely torn ligament. PRP has shown to be useful in cases where there is a partial tear or strain of a ligament, or ligament laxity in joints.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 11, 2009, 03:45:29 AM
GB,

You mentioned in your first post up to 30 injections.  This is more of a prolotherapy ligament procedure compared to an intra-articular injections which would normally be 2 or so.  I am very interested and want to be specific here because my PRP injections have only been intra-articular and not related to injections into the surrounding ligaments. 

This is important to me because you still talk of "crunching" and you also say that you had swelling after the procedure.  This indicates you were being treated at the ligaments and not intra-articular (in the joint).  Interesting that you still have "crunching" after 7 months. 

My main interest is to truly understand your success to determine if my own PRP or my HGH shots did me the most good in my recovery.  I can't tell at this time since I started with HGH and went from 0 to over 3 MM cartilage with the HGH but cannot comment directly on the success of PRP and was hoping you could shed some light for me.  Bottom line, no more pain in my joint after 7 HGH and 2 PRP injections.  The ligaments still hurt like a bad sprain after 4 months but I can tell the difference between interior joint pain and ligament pain.  My ligaments still have rebuilding to do and doing the prolotherapy to accomplish that portion.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 11, 2009, 05:55:34 PM
irentat - in my previous post I bundled together all the shots. I'll clarify and break it down for you.

 In one visit, for my right knee joint,  I had 1 shot of PRP, about 4cc worth. as well as 20-30 shots of prolotheray all around the joint (a fish extract of sodium mohrrite ? not sure of the spelling).

The swelling was likely caused by the prolotherapy. I can't comment if the PRP caused some of the swelling too as all the shots were administered during the same visit to the doc.

Normally i think the nurses withdraw about 20cc's worth of blood to be centrifuged if you only do 1 PRP injection, and about 50-60 cc's if you need 2 PRP injections.

My pain is gone, and most importantly, my stability is WAY better than before. But the Crunching is still there. So the question for me is.....should i go with  PRP or HGH on my next visit ? After 6 visits and 6 shots of PRP, as I mentioned my ligaments are way improved, but I still have crunching that is very bothersome, and others have told me that HGH is more documented for healing cartilage. Thus my decision to convert over to HGH on my next visit.

Another big question I have is, does the healing continue over the next 3-6 months ? No one really seems to know. Although it was suggested to me that the ligaments and tendons admnistered with PRP will continue to heal over an ensuing 3 months.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 12, 2009, 12:34:32 AM
In one visit, for my right knee joint,  I had 1 shot of PRP, about 4cc worth. as well as 20-30 shots of prolotheray all around the joint (a fish extract of sodium mohrrite ? not sure of the spelling).

The swelling was likely caused by the prolotherapy. I can't comment if the PRP caused some of the swelling too as all the shots were administered during the same visit to the doc.

Normally i think the nurses withdraw about 20cc's worth of blood to be centrifuged if you only do 1 PRP injection, and about 50-60 cc's if you need 2 PRP injections.

My pain is gone, and most importantly, my stability is WAY better than before. But the Crunching is still there. So the question for me is.....should i go with  PRP or HGH on my next visit ? After 6 visits and 6 shots of PRP, as I mentioned my ligaments are way improved, but I still have crunching that is very bothersome, and others have told me that HGH is more documented for healing cartilage. Thus my decision to convert over to HGH on my next visit.

Another big question I have is, does the healing continue over the next 3-6 months ? No one really seems to know. Although it was suggested to me that the ligaments and tendons admnistered with PRP will continue to heal over an ensuing 3 months.

OK, now that makes sense.  I have had both the fish oil and dextrose prolotherapy done on my ligaments and both cause the pain and swelling.  My Prolotherapist does either modality with B-12 added in to increase the healing speed.  Further, he has also tried Zinc with the dextrose. Zinc and the fish oil he said would not work.  DAMN that zinc hurts for 24 hours but it heals even faster. 

From all my research on prolotherapy in the ligaments, the healing does continue for many months after the shots stop.  Specifically, with dextrose, it is an osmotic agent that explodes the surrounding cells and forces the body to come in and rebuild the ligaments to their correct alignment.  From the time I have gotten them in November, I have had this nagging "sprain" feeling in my ankle ligaments from this procedure.  I look forward to the day that it goes away  but I think I have at least 2 more cycles to go.  I understand my ligaments were pretty screwed up.  They had to be to let my ankle move so much to lose all of my cartilage.

Regarding HGH, I would definitely go for it.  As you stated not only has it been documented but I have personally seen the cartilage reappear through the x-rays taken monthly over a period of 5 months since I started the injections.  At 5 months I was over 3 MM growth in all areas except one area I was only at 3 MM with normal being 4 MM or so.  This was from a starting point of 0 MM cartilage since I had surgery to remove the dead bone.  Dr. Dunn did this to give the cartilage a solid place to rebuild.  You don't sound NEARLY as far off as I and absolutely won't need the surgery part.  You will do great. 

Of course, the best thing to do would be offloading the knee but that is not realistic and so just realize you will need to go in for a few more shots than someone who was off of their knee for a period of a month or more.  That new cartilage is fragile and crushes easily.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 16, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
Hi guys,

I am scheduled for my first PRP injection on March 26th.  I have severe patellar tendinosis to where my bad tendon is 3 times wider than my good side.  My OS says I am the best candidate he has ever had for this procedure and has high hopes that it will be a success.  They told me they only do up to 2 injections if the first one isn't quite as good as the final result could be.  He said if I am 40% or less better, then they will do the 2nd one.  If I am better than that, then hopefully i will feel better soon!  So we'll see.  I have done a lot of research on this procedure and it sounds great!  I can't wait to see if my tendinosis will improve!  I have RSD/CRPS as well as the severe knee pain.  So once the tendon pain is gone or improved, I hope to be able to walk without crutches or a cane!  I am only 27 years old! 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 18, 2009, 05:28:12 AM
Hi guys,

I am scheduled for my first PRP injection on March 26th.  I have severe patellar tendinosis to where my bad tendon is 3 times wider than my good side.  My OS says I am the best candidate he has ever had for this procedure and has high hopes that it will be a success.  They told me they only do up to 2 injections if the first one isn't quite as good as the final result could be.  He said if I am 40% or less better, then they will do the 2nd one.  If I am better than that, then hopefully i will feel better soon!  So we'll see.  I have done a lot of research on this procedure and it sounds great!  I can't wait to see if my tendinosis will improve!  I have RSD/CRPS as well as the severe knee pain.  So once the tendon pain is gone or improved, I hope to be able to walk without crutches or a cane!  I am only 27 years old! 

Farrah

Very exciting!  Can I ask what you have done to this point?  Why is it only now you are pursuing PRP? 

Please keep us informed.  I really want to know the results of others.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 18, 2009, 01:41:14 PM
Hi Ben, I have a very long history!  Long story short, I had a Fulkerson TTT in Jan of 2008 which resulted in RSD/CRPS.  So most of my pain has been blamed on that.  Well after having a spinal cord stimulator implant and some of my RSD pain improved, I knew that my knee pain was an orthopaedic issue and refused to go back to physical therapy until they examined me.  So they did and found the tendinitis.  I have a lot of other problems in my knee, but hopefully this PRP procedure will help the tendinitis and then we can go from there.  I am just thrilled with the idea that I may be able to walk again 10days-4 weeks after the procedure!  Most of my walking pain is from my tendon. 

I will keep you posted!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on March 18, 2009, 03:00:15 PM
Farrah,

Have you considered the Regenexx injections (bone marrow stem cells)? It is expensvie but far more powerful than the PRP or prolotherapy? Maybe you don't need the Regenexx though unless your issue is inside the joint?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 18, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
rob, the Regenexx has not been offered to me.  I am not sure if that's b/c I am not a good candidate or what.  My pain is from my patellar tendon mainly, but I also have chondramalacia which causes some of the pain.  I haven't researched Regenexx at all, just PRP.  I guess Regenexx could be the next plan?? 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on March 20, 2009, 08:58:18 PM
Hi Farrah,
I have had two prp injections into the patella tendon and it has helped alot! I hope they work for you. Please let me know if you have any questions. -Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 20, 2009, 11:09:58 PM
Summer, how is the soreness afterwards?  Is it possible I may feel okay enough to go to a doctors appt the day after?  Does it feel like a cortisone shot or a Euflexxa (synvisc) injection afterwards?  I just had a day of soreness after those procedures.  Thanks!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on March 20, 2009, 11:23:50 PM
Hi Farrah,
The soreness is more than the Synvisc injection. I think you should be able to go to a Dr.'s appt. the next day. For me, I have been feeling more pain than others with this injection. I don't know why. But they say for at least a few days afterwards it hurts for most people. I have to take Vicodin after the shots. But its worth it cause the shots have worked for me. Are you experiencing alot of pain in your tendon? I have been following your story on this site. I hope the shots help you. Where are you going to get them done? -Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 22, 2009, 02:12:02 AM
hi Summer,

I have a lot of pain in my tendon which is causing some walking issues and have had to use a cane for a long time.  I am getting them done at my OS's office with a doctor that was trained to do the procedure.  He's had huge success with everyone he has performed the procedure on. 

I am dealing with an infection from my last spinal cord stimulator surgery for my RSD and have a fever and upset stomach as well as very very tender and constant pain on my back and it's very very hot to touch. 

So have to go rest now.  Good night!

Farrah

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on March 22, 2009, 09:07:49 AM
Hi Farrah,
Sorry you are not feeling well. I hope the shot works for you. When are you getting it done? Since you are already pretty hurting on the tendon your pain will increase in the beginnning of the shot which is normal. Then you should start feeling better. The shot starts an inflammatory process. There will be times when your tendon will feel completely pain free and then the next day it hurts a little which is normal too. I guess when the pain increases its a sign that the shot is working which is what the Dr. told me. I just had my 3rd shot last week and am in more pain than the other two. I am limping from the pain this time. I don't know why. But I'm hoping its a sign its working! Hope you feel better and let me know how it goes. -Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on March 23, 2009, 06:38:41 PM
How are you all doing?  My name is Chad, im 32 years old and I have trouble walking.  I have severe osteo-arthritis in both my knees and both my ankles.  I have recently taken an MRI and it shows that I have bone on bone, zero cartilage at all in both ankles and my knees.  I have severe pain in my ankles when I walk.  It feels like someone is stabbing me with a knife when I walk.  The pain started when I was 25 yrs. old and now it is at the point where I cant even deal with it anymore.  I am in such excrusiating pain when I walk, I have a 3 year old daughter and I cant even keep up with her.  It makes me so upset that I cant run with her, play with her.  I cant run at all at the moment, have trouble walking, bending, my knees crack, crunch and give out easily, walking down stairs or going up really is difficult for me.  Also at night when I lay down, I feel pain in my ankles too.  I have seen a knee specialist here in NY where I live and he suggested the PRP injections in both ankles and my knees.  So I am going to go in for my first treatment soon.  I am very excited to say the least.  I came across this website and thread about the PRP injections and after reading this I hope that I will benefit from these injections.

My question is how long does it usually take to see positive results with the PRP injections, and are the injections painful at all afterwards?  With someone in my situation with zero cartilage in the knees and ankles how many shots would I need to receive and would HGH help me at all?  Thanks alot.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 30, 2009, 02:05:09 AM
How are you all doing?  My name is Chad, im 32 years old and I have trouble walking.  I have severe osteo-arthritis in both my knees and both my ankles.  I have recently taken an MRI and it shows that I have bone on bone, zero cartilage at all in both ankles and my knees.  I have severe pain in my ankles when I walk.  It feels like someone is stabbing me with a knife when I walk.  The pain started when I was 25 yrs. old and now it is at the point where I cant even deal with it anymore.  I am in such excrusiating pain when I walk, I have a 3 year old daughter and I cant even keep up with her.  It makes me so upset that I cant run with her, play with her.  I cant run at all at the moment, have trouble walking, bending, my knees crack, crunch and give out easily, walking down stairs or going up really is difficult for me.  Also at night when I lay down, I feel pain in my ankles too.  I have seen a knee specialist here in NY where I live and he suggested the PRP injections in both ankles and my knees.  So I am going to go in for my first treatment soon.  I am very excited to say the least.  I came across this website and thread about the PRP injections and after reading this I hope that I will benefit from these injections.

My question is how long does it usually take to see positive results with the PRP injections, and are the injections painful at all afterwards?  With someone in my situation with zero cartilage in the knees and ankles how many shots would I need to receive and would HGH help me at all?  Thanks alot.

Frustrating story.  My ankles were shot also but worse than you but knees hardly at all.

Anything you do to rebuild cartilage is going to help.  My own results, as you have read, lead towards HGH but have had PRP treatments also.  Yes it will work even if you walk on it from day 1.  My right ankle was injected and started feeling a difference in 1 week even though I was walking on it constantly.  It has been 4 months and the pain is nonexistant in the joint.  However, as you read, I am going through prolotherapy and I have ligaments to repair still you may not depending upon your underlying issue. 

Get to the bottom of your OA!  Dig until you figure it out.  As for me, I had Hemochromatosis (high iron) and that causes arthritis. 

Don't live with what you are going through.  You have a doctor who is open and start getting injections!  However, don't stop learning.  I read up on this stuff for at least an hour a week.  I learn new things all the time.

Referencing HGH, I am no doctor and can only go off of my results.  I suspect HGH at 5 mg per shot in 1 joint would take roughly 10 shots to fully reform your cartilage over a period of a year.  Expensive?  Yeah but look at the alternative.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 30, 2009, 02:21:49 AM
Summer, thanks so much for the information!  I am still struggling with this infection in my back and will be going to the local hospital tomorrow for some tests and hopefully proper treatment.  For now, I have temporarily set up my first PRP injection for this coming Thursday, but it depends on the treatment and results of my infection.  They don't want to start the PRP treatments until the infection is cleared up.  UGH!  I told my OS that it sucks that my ability to walk without my cane depends on my stupid infection!  I can't wait to get rid of my cane.  It really bothers me that for so long, much of my pain has been from tendinitis!  RSD is a lot of it too, but without the tendinitis, I could probably be back to sports by  now.  Maybe...but maybe wishful thinking. 

For everyone else going through this, good luck!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on March 31, 2009, 05:10:36 PM
Well I had my first PRP injection in my left ankle yesterday, ;D Mon. March 30th 2009.  And I have to say the injection was Extremely painful.  After the injection I was not able to walk on it for an hour and I just hung out in my OS's office until I felt I could make it out to my car.  I was able to walk on the ankle later that night, but it is a little sore today as well.  Otherwise I feel great, listen if its gonna help me walk again like a normal human being, the pain of the injection is a non-issue for me.  I am very excited to say the least, and I hope it will help me.  If it does, Im going to go back and do my right ankle and both my knees.  I was also very happy because my insurance is covering the shots, they said I can have as many shots as I like as long as it's one shot per day.  My OS says all I will need is probably 2 shots, anything more is overkill. I asked him about the HGH injections and he said that he never heard anything about it in regards to healing cartilage.  So im going to do some more research on it before I proceed with it, whether its through him or on my own.  Anyway I will keep you all posted on my recovery, Thanks,
Chad-
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on March 31, 2009, 06:24:46 PM
My PRP will be cancelled for who knows how long!  I have a pretty serious infection from my last spinal cord stimulator surgery on February 6.  IV antibiotics for 28-42 days.  Had two days of it already.  It's a mess.  I need to talk to the doctor and see if the PRP will be affected by the infection...probably not a good thing to do right now, but have to ask! 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 01, 2009, 02:51:24 PM
Well I had my first PRP injection in my left ankle yesterday, ;D Mon. March 30th 2009.  And I have to say the injection was Extremely painful.  After the injection I was not able to walk on it for an hour and I just hung out in my OS's office until I felt I could make it out to my car.  I was able to walk on the ankle later that night, but it is a little sore today as well.  Otherwise I feel great, listen if its gonna help me walk again like a normal human being, the pain of the injection is a non-issue for me.  I am very excited to say the least, and I hope it will help me.  If it does, Im going to go back and do my right ankle and both my knees.  I was also very happy because my insurance is covering the shots, they said I can have as many shots as I like as long as it's one shot per day.  My OS says all I will need is probably 2 shots, anything more is overkill. I asked him about the HGH injections and he said that he never heard anything about it in regards to healing cartilage.  So im going to do some more research on it before I proceed with it, whether its through him or on my own.  Anyway I will keep you all posted on my recovery, Thanks,
Chad-
Chad,

Did your doctor not adjust the pH?  This has to be done or you will get the pain results you did.   Tell your doctor to contact the centrifuge manufacturer and suggest the type and dosage of pH adjustment.  I think my doctor uses less than 1/4 cc of sodium bicarbonate in my 3 cc's.

Personally I don't feel your OS is correct with only 2 shots but try it and start doing the other joints.  Also, you are correct on the number of shots.  Remember, they are your platelets. 

Regarding the HGH look into "intra-articular HGH".  Take the data and show the doctor if you are interested.

Also, GET TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR OA!!!!!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on April 01, 2009, 06:47:17 PM
Well I had my first PRP injection in my left ankle yesterday, ;D Mon. March 30th 2009.  And I have to say the injection was Extremely painful.  After the injection I was not able to walk on it for an hour and I just hung out in my OS's office until I felt I could make it out to my car.  I was able to walk on the ankle later that night, but it is a little sore today as well.  Otherwise I feel great, listen if its gonna help me walk again like a normal human being, the pain of the injection is a non-issue for me.  I am very excited to say the least, and I hope it will help me.  If it does, Im going to go back and do my right ankle and both my knees.  I was also very happy because my insurance is covering the shots, they said I can have as many shots as I like as long as it's one shot per day.  My OS says all I will need is probably 2 shots, anything more is overkill. I asked him about the HGH injections and he said that he never heard anything about it in regards to healing cartilage.  So im going to do some more research on it before I proceed with it, whether its through him or on my own.  Anyway I will keep you all posted on my recovery, Thanks,
Chad-
Chad,

Did your doctor not adjust the pH?  This has to be done or you will get the pain results you did.   Tell your doctor to contact the centrifuge manufacturer and suggest the type and dosage of pH adjustment.  I think my doctor uses less than 1/4 cc of sodium bicarbonate in my 3 cc's.

Personally I don't feel your OS is correct with only 2 shots but try it and start doing the other joints.  Also, you are correct on the number of shots.  Remember, they are your platelets. 

Regarding the HGH look into "intra-articular HGH".  Take the data and show the doctor if you are interested.

Also, GET TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR OA!!!!!

Honestly I dont know if he adjusted the pH??  This is all very new to me.  I watched very closely what he was doing and I do not remember him adding anything to the platelets.  I just started researching PRP in Feb. after I heard about Hines Ward getting the injections during the Superbowl.  I am going to ask him about the pH though the next time I see him.  Thank you for your reply.  Also my ankle is feeling a little better today, Wed. April 1st, last night my right ankle was bothering me because I have been putting all my weight on it trying to keep pressure off of my left ankle...lol  As soon as my left ankly feels better Im gonna go in for a shot in my right ankle.  Probably in 2 weeks time.  Thanks,
Chad-

 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on April 01, 2009, 07:21:46 PM
In one visit, for my right knee joint,  I had 1 shot of PRP, about 4cc worth. as well as 20-30 shots of prolotheray all around the joint (a fish extract of sodium mohrrite ? not sure of the spelling).

The swelling was likely caused by the prolotherapy. I can't comment if the PRP caused some of the swelling too as all the shots were administered during the same visit to the doc.

Normally i think the nurses withdraw about 20cc's worth of blood to be centrifuged if you only do 1 PRP injection, and about 50-60 cc's if you need 2 PRP injections.

My pain is gone, and most importantly, my stability is WAY better than before. But the Crunching is still there. So the question for me is.....should i go with  PRP or HGH on my next visit ? After 6 visits and 6 shots of PRP, as I mentioned my ligaments are way improved, but I still have crunching that is very bothersome, and others have told me that HGH is more documented for healing cartilage. Thus my decision to convert over to HGH on my next visit.

Another big question I have is, does the healing continue over the next 3-6 months ? No one really seems to know. Although it was suggested to me that the ligaments and tendons admnistered with PRP will continue to heal over an ensuing 3 months.

OK, now that makes sense.  I have had both the fish oil and dextrose prolotherapy done on my ligaments and both cause the pain and swelling.  My Prolotherapist does either modality with B-12 added in to increase the healing speed.  Further, he has also tried Zinc with the dextrose. Zinc and the fish oil he said would not work.  DAMN that zinc hurts for 24 hours but it heals even faster. 

From all my research on prolotherapy in the ligaments, the healing does continue for many months after the shots stop.  Specifically, with dextrose, it is an osmotic agent that explodes the surrounding cells and forces the body to come in and rebuild the ligaments to their correct alignment.  From the time I have gotten them in November, I have had this nagging "sprain" feeling in my ankle ligaments from this procedure.  I look forward to the day that it goes away  but I think I have at least 2 more cycles to go.  I understand my ligaments were pretty screwed up.  They had to be to let my ankle move so much to lose all of my cartilage.

Regarding HGH, I would definitely go for it.  As you stated not only has it been documented but I have personally seen the cartilage reappear through the x-rays taken monthly over a period of 5 months since I started the injections.  At 5 months I was over 3 MM growth in all areas except one area I was only at 3 MM with normal being 4 MM or so.  This was from a starting point of 0 MM cartilage since I had surgery to remove the dead bone.  Dr. Dunn did this to give the cartilage a solid place to rebuild.  You don't sound NEARLY as far off as I and absolutely won't need the surgery part.  You will do great. 

Of course, the best thing to do would be offloading the knee but that is not realistic and so just realize you will need to go in for a few more shots than someone who was off of their knee for a period of a month or more.  That new cartilage is fragile and crushes easily.

Ben,
Do you know what type of HGH you were given?  Do you know if it was Jintropin or Somatropin?  These are the only two types that I really know about.  Thanks.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 01, 2009, 07:25:09 PM
Change of plans....my first PRP is tomorrow morning! 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on April 01, 2009, 09:03:07 PM
Hi Farrah,

Good 4 u! I hope it helps. My third injection that I got 2 wks ago is already helping more. Good luck! summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on April 01, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
Change of plans....my first PRP is tomorrow morning! 

Farrah

Good Luck hope it helps you.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 02, 2009, 05:49:01 AM
Quote
Ben,
Do you know what type of HGH you were given?  Do you know if it was Jintropin or Somatropin?  These are the only two types that I really know about.  Thanks.
Quote

Dr. Dunn uses Omitrope...I honestly feel because it is cheaper and he must get the same results since he has done hundreds of joints.  My Prolotherapist in Phoenix would not use anything other than Humatrope because it is American made by Eli Lilly.  He was very specific that you don't want to chance putting anything but the purest into the joint. Both worked so I cannot argue one against the other.  Humatrope is a good 20% more in cost and it's not cheap stuff to begin with.  Further, people don't realize the amount Dr. Dunn puts in the joint.  It's way more than you think.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 04, 2009, 12:23:33 AM
Hi, Since I have been posting here, I felt that I should give a short update.  As I have stated before, I have an infection from a previous back surgery back in February.  Well yesterday was suppose to be my first PRP, but the PICC line (type of IV) insertion took longer than originally thought and I had to reschedule the PRP for Monday.  So Monday is finally the day...nothing will cancel it this time! 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 06, 2009, 07:31:09 AM
My PRP is finally here!!!  It's scheduled for 2pm Eastern USA time!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 06, 2009, 09:38:09 PM
Succussful PRP procedure.  I have been home for about 15 minutes and left the doctors office about an hour ago.  I am already getting a lot of soreness as the lidocaine wears off!  I was told to rest, ice, and take pain meds as needed.  My OS said it may take up to 5-6 days for most of the soreness to go away.  I am using my crutches for the worst of it.  Thanks for all the advice everyone!  The doctor gave me a great chance of having 70% of my pain go away....said it may take 10days-4weeks.  I don't have a formal appt with him for another 6 weeks.  I will see him around at physical therapy though...I start that next Wednesday for once a week. 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on April 07, 2009, 07:11:21 AM
Hi Farrah,
Glad it went well. I have been told by the Dr. not to ice cause it decreases the inflammation and thats what you want with this shot, to stimulate healing. The pain continues to get even better after 4 weeks especially if you get another shot at week 6. The more you get the longer it seems to heal for. Of course, if you are healed with just this one shot than no shot would be necessary. Hows the pain? -Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 07, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 07, 2009, 07:16:11 PM
Farrah - I'm glad to see that you're giving PRP a shot. No pun intended :)

Bear in mind that based on the research I have done on PRP injections, the placement of the injection is just as crucial, if not, more important than the frequency of injections. And so it is critical that you wisely choose an MD with the best possible track record for performing PRP and Prolotherapy. I know time and money play a role in determining the specialist, i'm just pointing this out in case you don't see immediate results / pain relief.

I personally did experience immediate pain relief (immediate meaning 2 weeks following the first series of injections), but my doctor injected me in 20 different spots around my knee with prolotherapy and 1 injection of ~ 4 cc of PRP. I am only speaking to knee injections here. not any other joint.

I have read-up on stories where a patient received prolotherapy and prp injections with  no positive effect, and it was because the injections were administered in the wrong part of the knee, injecting only where the patient thought the pain ws coming from. This is why my doctor injects 20-30 prolotherapy shots around the entire knee, to ensure that he treats the whole knee joint, and he doesn't miss. This greatly increases the odds of properly treating your knee and not wasting your time and money.

Keep us posted on your progress.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 07, 2009, 07:44:45 PM
Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah

I will reiterate that your pain and swelling is a required healing that the body must go through.  I would not ice. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 07, 2009, 07:59:29 PM
I'll third that. No ice.

My doctor occasionally places a heating pad right after my shots.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 07, 2009, 08:07:24 PM
Hi Guys,

My doctor has had many positive experiences with the PRP procedure.  He used ultrasound to prove where my pain was coming from rather than just hearing my complaints.  My tendon was so huge compared to my other leg.  I forgot the differences.  During the procedure he put the Platelets all over my tendon.  He actually showed me the ultrasound afterwards showing me how he placed it.  It was a pretty cool thing to see. 

As for ice, I want to listen to my doctor, but I understand what you all are saying.  I have only iced for a short period today (10 min) and haven't done it again.  I want to listen to my doctor, but know that you all are pros too. 

Today, my soreness is minimal.  It still hurts to use that leg, but I am not in constant pain like part of yesterday.  I am only having pain if I use the leg.  This is normal, right? 

I can't wait to see if this was a success!  I have been struggling with so many pain issues for over 15 months and would love to get rid of one of them!  Thanks for all the help!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on April 07, 2009, 10:33:01 PM
Farrah,
Yes pain when walking is totally normal. In fact, after mine I was limping cause of it:) Keep us posted on how it goes. Did he tell you when to start exercises or doing pt again??? -Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 08, 2009, 02:39:39 AM
Hi Summer,

I start PT next week.  I am waiting to hear back from my PT about the day and time b/c her schedule is so booked already.  My OS said I could do gentle stretching and some stationery bike use.  I used my crutches yesterday for a short while, but today was much more tolerable.  I did take my pain meds throughout the day and rested.  When I would try to walk around the house, my leg would just give out.  I guess it's my muscles being stubborn since I am having the pain in my tendon.  It's understandable I guess, but it happened about 5 times today and each time caused my back to kill me from trying to catch myself from falling.  Oh well...the joys of knee procedures!  I imagine by the end of the week, my knee would feel normal until I feel the positive affects of the PRP. 

I have to drive to my internal medicine doctor tomorrow (about 30 mins away).  I hope the driving experience is better than yesterday's!  B/c I was so sore, it hurt so much switching from gas to break while driving home from the procedure.  I am sure tomorrow will be better.  I usually walk with a cane, but to prevent my leg giving out and added pain from driving and the short distance of walking to the doctor's office, I may use my crutches tomorrow. 

How is everyone else doing with their PRP after-affects? 

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 08, 2009, 06:01:46 AM

How is everyone else doing with their PRP after-affects? 

Farrah

Mine were only intra-articular and always with a combo of prolotherapy with dextrose on my ligaments.  The ligaments would always hurt and so can't reference the pain for you. 

FYI, don't expect something amazing.  The body needs time to heal.  You, in fact, may take months.  As for my procedure, for 4 months straight it was like having a constant sprain.  I started getting sick of the pain and started a more intense workout procedure.  This made the difference.  Everyone is different and the issues are different so don't use me as a reference.  The main point is to expect this to take time...longer than you think. Just be happy your body can heal itself once it is given the proper motivation.  Lots of people don't know this and end up getting joint replacements or going through years of pain first.  I did.

Ben

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Shine on April 08, 2009, 08:21:57 AM
Hi Farrah,
I was still limping from the pain after the first few days. Now that it is 3 wks following the injection the tendon is having its ups and downs(totally normal from what I am told cause when it hurts it is sometimes a good sign as long as it feels better too) So last week I felt almost 100%, today I am in a little bit of more pain for no reason. But for me the shots keep doing this for 3 1/2 weeks or so. Then it just keeps getting better. I have a little different reaction than most though. I have been told I have more pain. Is your tendon feeling inflammed? Mine was after this injection. Also I was a little bruised up for 2 wks. I was told not to overdo it with exercises. Not that I can with the condition of my knee ha ha. But just gentle stuff esp. for the first 2 wks. No squats. I'm curious what exercises they are letting you do. He told me to aqua jog for the first 2 weeks, but that makes my knee hurt so I stopped. So I am just biking. He said no squats for 4 wks.  Im so sleepy of to bed. Take Care, Summer
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 08, 2009, 03:06:58 PM

at first, It was difficult to determine where my pain was coming from, considering I have 3 problem areas in my right knee. A torn Menesci (of which 40% was removed during ACL & PCL reconstruction), ligament laxity, and grade III articular cartilage degeneration. Although with time, i did learn to tell the difference between pain caused by Ligament damage and cartilage damage. I'm at the point where I can exercise 5-6 times a week and feel great. Lots of time on the stationary bike and elliptical. WHich is amazing to me considering I could not work out for over a year due to pain. It took me a year to find out about Prolotherapy and PRP.

Anyway, the point is I am about 80% improved after 7 months and 7 series of injections. I'll be providing an update on my last visit in a bit.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 08, 2009, 05:11:20 PM

Interesting read on PRP injections with Prolotherapy.....


http://prolonews.com/prolotherapy_with_platelet_rich_plasma_is_a_good_alternative_for_labrum_and_menisci_degeneration_and_or_tears.htm

published by my doctor Dr. Hauser. so it's a biased view, but he's made me a believer.......

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 08, 2009, 05:58:15 PM

For those that are following my progress, I have an update.

2 weeks ago, I once again visited Caring Medical for my 7th visit in 7 months for another series of injections for treatment to my right knee, which was suffering from ligament laxity, a torn lateral Menisci and grade III degeenration of the articular cartilage of my right knee joint.

To date, I have received a series of 6 prolotherapy injections consisting of Sodium Morrhuate and 6 injections of ~ 4 cc of PRP over a period of 6 months.

It was after my 6th treatment that a board contributor, I believe it was Irentat, posted a comment suggesting asking my doctor about HGH for treating the cartilage damage in my knee, as it worked for Irentat, and there was a lot of published documentation suggesting  HGH regenerated cartilage.

So after conferring with the doctor, I switched things up, and instead of getting a 7th Intra PRP injection, I opted for HGH with Glucosamine injection + prolotherapy. I always get 20 + injections of Prolo with either the PRP or HGH. So my last visit included the following injections:

Glucosamine Sulfate (2)
HGH, 1 IU (1)
Prolotherapy (Sodium Morrhuate & Dextrose) (20 + injections around the knee joint)

It's been two weeks since this 7th visit, and my knee feels more stable, with less crunching and greater range (almost 100%) than ever. Overall a bit  more improved since my last visit. Impossible to tell if HGH made the difference this last round of treament or if the PRP would have resulted in the same degree of improvement. What is encouraging, is that my knee has slowing improved each and every time after a visit. to the point where I believe my knee is about 80% improved since my first visit. I'm going for treatment at least one more time in 2 weeks for an 8th series of injections. I feel like i may need  a few more before I reach my goal of 90% improvement. The ultimate test would be to see if I can handle a few miles of jogging without any setback. I have not jogged in 2 years. Right now I'm just so pleased I can bike hard, mountain bike 3 hrs at a time, and road bike pain free with no setbacks the following day. Unbelievable considering advice Knee surgeons were providing me 2 years ago about likely needing a knee replacement in 5 -10 yrs.  Boy they are so narrow minded. My advice, look out for yourself by doing your own due diligence before relying on anyone single expert. What's also great about PRP, is knowing I'm getting a permanent fix, rather than having to rely on bi-yearly injections of an artificial substance just to relieve pain.

I hope this helps

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: arkitect06 on April 08, 2009, 10:18:31 PM
Hi Summer,

I have a lot of different things going on with my knee, tendinitis being one of the smaller issues.  So I have no idea what activities I will be doing next week at PT.  They usually only make me do a lot of mat stuff.   My tendon is still swollen (has a bump over it) from the injection on Monday.  I am getting more use out of my leg with every day, but of course still have the normal amount of pain from before the procedure.  Today I had a doctors appt to check up on my infection and could barely walk from the waiting room to the exam room.  It hurts so much to bend my knee while weight bearing and the nurse thought I had a brace on it keeping it straight. 

Anyway, my soreness is improving!

Farrah
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2009, 02:46:38 PM
So after conferring with the doctor, I switched things up, and instead of getting a 7th Intra PRP injection, I opted for HGH with Glucosamine injection + prolotherapy. I always get 20 + injections of Prolo with either the PRP or HGH. So my last visit included the following injections:

Glucosamine Sulfate (2)
HGH, 1 IU (1)
Prolotherapy (Sodium Morrhuate & Dextrose) (20 + injections around the knee joint)

I feel like i may need  a few more before I reach my goal of 90% improvement.

Interesting you injected Glucosamine along with the HGH.  Makes sense to give the body the building blocks right there at the time of the shot.

As for the quantity of HGH, I feel you are too light.  Dr. Dunn does anywhere from 15-45 IU into a knee per shot.  Dr. Dunn did 15 IU per shot into my ankle.  What you had injected is what my prolotherapist suggested but I convinced him to try Dr. Dunn's quantities.  You need a lot in there because so much of the HGH is adsorbed by the body before it has a chance to initiate stem cell growth (that becomes ultimately cartilage).  In the first hour, 40% of the HGH is adsorbed by the body if injected into the joint.

Screw 90%, go for 100!!!!  I am.  BTW, I have no been able to run for 12 years.  My goal is to do the same things I was able to do before.  Granted I have really bad ankles and think I will take another 6 months of prolo and workouts but I see a constant improvement. 

Switch up your prolo as well as your IA shots.  My Prolotherapist did the dextrose then went to fish oil and now back to dextrose.  He says keeps the body from getting used to the injections and not gaining the benfit.

Please keep us informed.
Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on April 15, 2009, 05:14:04 AM
ok. Given the joint disease epidemic gripping our nations and its people, my topic heading is a powerful statement to make and is sure to be of special interest to fellow citizens who all share the same joint degeneration disease i do, which is why I want to share my findings with everyone on this board.

So what is my story ?  16 or 17 years ago I had reconstructive surgery on my ACL and PCL. Both ligaments had been completely torn. Also, during the surgery, my surgeon uncovered damage to my lateral meniscus. So he removed that part of the meniscus damaged. I was fine afterwards. BUT........over the ensuing 15 years, due to an active lifestyle of sport, my knee began to degenerate to the point where my lateral meniscus was 60% gone (it had further degenerated) gradual increase in ligament laxity (causing lots of pain) and articular cartilage badly damaged. my MRI last year showed something the doctor explained as "a cratered moon" lots of holes :). about 5 years away from bone on bone.

Imagine, only 36 years old, and I can't play/run with my dog or bike uphill. I was desperate.

In September 2008, my research into degenerative arthritis lead me to founding out about prolotherapy and Platelet Rich Plasma. PRP is the acronym, and means, and i quote from a source per definition "blood plasma with concentrated platelets. The concentrated platelets found in PRP include growth factors among the huge reservoirs of bioactive proteins that are vital to initiate and accelerate tissue repair and regeneration. These bioactive proteins increase stem cell production to initiate connective tissue healing, bone regeneration and repair, promote development of new blood vessels and stimulate the wound healing process."

As most people suffering from joint disease already know....joints are avascular....meaning there is very little blood circulating in our joints to trigger healing when damage to our ligament, or tendon or cartilage is made due to sport or accident.

So how does PRP work ? This is how I've experienced it each time I visit my MD. Using a syringe, the nurse withdraws something like 30 -60 cc of blood from your arm, then is placed in a centrifuge. The centrifuge spins and separates the plasma from the blood producing the PRP. This increases the concentration of platelets and growth factors up to 500%. When PRP is injected into the damaged area it stimulates the tendon or ligament causing mild inflammation that triggers the healing cascade. As a result new collagen begins to develop. As this collagen matures it begins to shrink causing the tightening and strengthening of the tendons and ligaments of the damaged area.

My first treatment for PRP injections came in September 2008. I found the most prominent doctor with the longest and best track record around, and made sure he was an MD. There is not just one injection, but up to 30 small injections all around the knee...he covers the entire area. Knee swells for 2 days and healing begins immediately.

I've had 5 injections in 5 months, spaced 4-6 weeks apart. The results have been very good to date. I began to notice pain begin to creap away after 2-3 weeks of my first injection. after my second injection, I could play around with my dog, and maneuver side to side with sharp cuts in and around the playground. That was a sure sign I was on to something good.

the order in which progress occurred....
1. pain begins to diminish and go away while walking (injection 1 and injection 2, 3, 4)
2. ligament feels tighter and stronger (same as above)
3. crunching begins to diminish. (this only occurred until after my 5th injection) it varies from patient to patient i would assume)

To me, the diminished crunching in my knee might is indicative of the PRP regenerating the cartilage....but I won't really know until i have a second MRI...either way the knee is feeling good and i'm happy.

I'm due for my 6th set of injection in a few weeks, and i'll keep the board up to date on my progress.

I plan on having a second set of MRI taken at the end of my PRP treatments...to compare with the initial set of MRI done before treatment began 6 months ago. This will tell me if the cartilage grew back.   

Hope I've added something meaningful to the forum.


George Bazos

at first, It was difficult to determine where my pain was coming from, considering I have 3 problem areas in my right knee. A torn Menesci (of which 40% was removed during ACL & PCL reconstruction), ligament laxity, and grade III articular cartilage degeneration. Although with time, i did learn to tell the difference between pain caused by Ligament damage and cartilage damage. I'm at the point where I can exercise 5-6 times a week and feel great. Lots of time on the stationary bike and elliptical. WHich is amazing to me considering I could not work out for over a year due to pain. It took me a year to find out about Prolotherapy and PRP.

Anyway, the point is I am about 80% improved after 7 months and 7 series of injections. I'll be providing an update on my last visit in a bit.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on April 15, 2009, 05:16:48 AM
George,

  In your oppinion would glucosamine+HGH be more effective than PRP + HGH? I have an appointment to have PRP done on my knee, damage cartlidge and loose ligament.

N
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on April 15, 2009, 09:30:57 PM
Just an update on my recovery.  Its been about 15 days since my 1st PRP shot in the left ankle.  I feel a lot stronger and better in my left ankle but from compensating and putting all my weight on my right ankle, now the right ankle is killing me.  And to top it off my SCUMBAG FU#$%*&CO#$SUC^&NG Insurace company BLUE CROSS BLUE SHEILD denied the payment to my OS.  I originally called BLUE CROSS BLUE SHEILD before the 1st injection to see if it was covered and gave them the injection codes to review and they told me sure, "you can get as many shots as you like as long as its one shot per day" & "specialty drugs are covered" and also the girl I spoke with said that "they would rather pay for a shot instead of surgery" and now they want to deny the claim... So now I have to go to appeals on their decision and they dont want to pay for any future shots... what a bunch of sh*&.  I had a second PRP appointment set for April 20th and now I have to lay out $1400 bucks to my OS.  They want to review more literature to see if they will cover the first shot I already had and they have to pull the phone conversation between myself and the agent that told me to go ahead, to see if they are liable.  I told them that my ankle does feel better since I had the shot, but they said its experimental and I told them but I feel better, I want more shots and they still have to review literature pertaining to the injection...lol what a bunch of [email protected]#$%^& B.S.  Insurance in this country is such a scam, if not the biggest scam ever in this country, its such a joke, that I pay them $425 every month and I cant even get the help I need.  So just a warning to others if you have BLUE CROSS BLUE SHEILD I would start looking for a NEW COMPANY...  BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD will NOT PAY FOR PRP INJECTIONS..........BEWARE.  They just want your money. They dont care about you!!!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: GJJ on April 15, 2009, 10:07:47 PM
Your so right.

The whole health insurance is a scam.  I am glad to see others agree.  There needs to be a better system.  You need to fight them and stay on top of it.  You need to inform your state as well and complain.  The only thing they cover these days is a routine visit. 

PRP is most likely consider investigational so you will have to prove its not.  You should file a claim and do your homework.  Your doctor will have to sign the form indicating no other treatment was working  and this procedure is.  That is the point.

Blue Cross, Blue Shields and etc.  They all get away.  The more people complain and demand what they deserve, they will be force to pay attention or shut down.

GJJ
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: CET on April 17, 2009, 04:49:49 AM
First time here.  Read all five pages.  Very helpful.  Thanks to all of you for posting your experiences.  This is what I need.

I am driving for two days to Miami next weekend to receive PRP from an experienced MD.  He will start me on Monday and perform the procedure every other day for four treatments.  (I guess this depends on his finding what he expects upon examination).  He said to bring a heating pad, but crutches can stay at home.  They will provide a cane if necessary.  I have not found anyone else who does the injections this close together, but he says he has a ton of experience and this works.  He will supplement with Amino Acids  and physical therapy and cold laser and a lotion for pain. 

I looked for a physician where I live, but there is not one.  So I am driving for two days and I hope driving home afterwards, at the end of the week, won't be a problem. 

I have searched the web for information and called several doctors around the country.  This doctor in Miami seems to be about the best, I don't know.

I have swollen, arthritic knees.  Have not been examined for them before, but probably have close to bone on bone since they have gotten progressively worse for 10 to 12 years.  I have also put on way too much weight and that is a problem now, I am sure.  My knees are swollen and get stiff and sometimes burn or hurt at night.  Walking is very painful and has altered my lifestyle considerably. 

I will post when it is over, but any advice will be welcome.  Especially if you know the doctor in Miami, whom I will not name since it looks like naming doctors here is discouraged.  Fees are $200 for exam, $300 for kit for blood, $475 to treat each knee, adds to $5200 for both knees to be treated four times, and insurance will not pay.  He does not deal with insurance, it is up to patient, but I have a discount program, so I am sure it doesn't pay.

Wish these posts registered the most recent first so that we wouldn't have to go through all the old posts to get to the most recent.  That is nice to just get here and criticize it, huh!!  I'll try to be nice, but it is so hard!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 17, 2009, 09:23:30 PM
Noel -

Good question. I will be visiting my MD this coming Tuesday for my 8th series of injections, and that questions is at the top of my list to ask. My experience is that doctors rarely give a straight up answer to such questions.

I will be combining for the first time intra-PRP with an injection of HGH.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Adrianne on April 22, 2009, 09:57:52 PM
Thank you so much everyone for all the informative posts - my knee feels better already, knowing I may have another option.

GB, your case sounds a bit similar to mine (surgeon suggesting osteotomy, brace), so I'm hoping you could answer a few Q's.  I'm 44 and had surgery in Aug 2007 to repair medial meniscus (removed some) and remove a cyst.  Despite following instructions, religious PT and working out, my knee is a mess.  As a former competitive swimmer who had not regularly exercised for years prior to my injury, I've rediscovered exercise and have to be able to be active!

First, besides what you've mentioned, any other reasons for picking your Dr.?  He's the closest to me, but honestly, his website seems a little over the top and too good to be true.  I am leaning toward seeing him, as you have had success; I guess I just need a little reassurance.

Second, I'm concerned about an accurate diagnosis.  I called the office this morning and they said that they do not need any medical records, x-rays or MRI's, because they can be "misleading;" Dr can diagnose the problems through consultation and examination.  My pain varies widely - from inability to walk on it few hours after the elliptical, to weakness, instability, kneecap pain, raw pain and now, pinching in the lateral area.  I'm not sure he can know what's going on inside without tests.  How were you diagnosed?  You've mentioned x-rays and MRI's - did the Dr use those or did you have them elsewhere just for your own knoweldge?

Third, I've read about ultrasound guidance for the injections, but the office said that the Dr will just know where to inject, based on his experience.  Has that been your experience?

Finally (for now!), is it realistic to drive for 5 hours right after injections to my driving knee?  The office said that the lidocaine will help with the immediate pain, so that it may be better to drive and get home right away.  Thoughts?

I hope that your treatment yesterday was successful and that you get even closer to reaching your goal.  Please update us.

Thanks very much for any info!
Adrianne
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 23, 2009, 04:44:42 AM
Adrianne -

When it comes to getting an accurate diagnosis, it is my opinion to do whatever you can to identify the problem area and determine the root cause of your pain. However, as we all know, uncovering that information can be problematic. From my experience, x-rays and MRI will do a decent job of identifying cartilage degeneration and tears, but are NOT effective in determining ligament laxity, or partial ligament and tendon tears. I had both cartilage and ligament damage.

To answer your question, yes I had my own x-rays and MRI taken because all the surgeons I visited prior required that information before admitting me for a consultation. And all that information related to how bad my cartilage was and that I had a misalignment in my knee too. I was in a lot of pain.

So then I found out about prolotherapy and those complementary injections such as PRP which led me to a list of prolotherapist who treat joint disease, including Dr. Hauser in Chicago, and Dr. Dunn in Florida who appears to focus on cartilage regeneration. What I found, after speaking with them, was that every doctor will have its own philosophy and will strongly defend their practice and protocol, as they should, if they truely believe in what they do. I try not to judge one way or another. I just chose one who's philosophy suited me as well as identifying they have experience and track record to back up their claims.

For me, it boiled down to 2 MD. Dr. Hauser and Dr. Dunn, because they both have documented cases of cartilage regeneration. (Although those claims can often be disputed because there is so much that goes into those claims), that's a whole long debate, anyhow...

What I'm trying to get at is, that it's entirely up to you, to determine who you feel most comfortable with. In the case of Dr.Dunn, the nurse advised me over the phone that they do x-rays after each and every series of injections. Do I want a total of 10 x-rays, 1 x-ray spaced 1month apart for 10 months in a row ? No I don't. others may not care so much as long as they get the results they want. I was told through a 3rd party on this board they can inject up to 15-45 IU of HGH per visit. Do I want that much injected, no I don't. I'd rather take a more patient and cautious approach. but that's personal. Someone who's on the list for a TKR may not care as long as he gets the result they want.

Also, I chose Dr. hauser because he was trained by the grandfather of prolotherapy. I believe prolo dates back 60 years or so, and hauser took over that practice after working for the guy for 3 years. Experience counts a lot in my book, and someone who's done 10,000 injections over 15 years with lots of referrals has a leg up on an MD who's only be at it for 3 years for example. I know he's a bit over the top, but you can't blame the guy for being a good marketer. you got to figure, if this prolo stuff wasn't working, he would have been out of business a long time ago. In fact the opposite has happened. And I've been in his office on 8 separate occasions, spoken to other patients in the waiting room, some with similar problems as mine, others with more serious back and neck problems, and most of them are all on their 3rd, 7th or 10th visit. each one saying how they just continually improved with time and patience.

My plan is to have a follow up MRI and X-ray taken in June by the same team who took my first set just prior to beginning my PRP and prolo treatments. That second MRI will be exactly 10 months and 8 injections after (1 series of injections spaced 1 month apart for 8 months). i'm advised the PRP treatments can continue to heal up to 3 months afterwards. So in my case, I'm minimizing the number of x-rays and MRI to 2 in 1 year.

For me, out of the 8 visits, 7 of those times I got PRP injections. and the ligament pain is way gone. Twice I got HGH injections with glucosamine with the PRP and Prolo and sodium morehate (that's a lot of shots :)

The tracking in my knee is much better, and the stability is back. I won't know if the cartilage has regrown until my x-rays this summer. My prior x-ray as I mentioned earlier clearly showed the degeneration in my right knee. it was half the thickness than my healthy knee.

Hope this helps.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Adrianne on April 24, 2009, 09:13:12 PM
Thank you, gb, yes, your info helped me very much.  I'm working on making an appt, and reading all I can find so I can be an educated patient.  I think I read somewhere on his website that he does not necessarily encourage PRP, but prefers to do std prolo first to see if that is sufficient - did your find that you had to convince him on the different aspects of your treatment?  I've learned that we have to advocate for ourselves when we're patients; just wondering what I'm in for.

Your research and sharing info has really helped - I very much appreciate it!

Adrianne
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: C Broder on April 28, 2009, 12:52:10 AM
I went in today for my 1st PRP shot in my right ankle.  It was painful, but not as painful as the shot in my left ankle, which was Excruciating Pain!!!  My OS said that there was probably more room in my right ankle for the injection as far as spacing between the joint.  He said the reason the left ankle injection hurt more was because I was feeling the pressure of the shot being injected into the joint where there was no room at all. 

I asked him about adjusting for pH and he said that it has nothing to do with that.  I also asked him about prolotherapy for my knees and he said he wouldn't recommend it, because there is no science behind it.  He said that he doesn't really think that it will help me.  If the PRP works for me in my ankles than I am definitely going back for PRP shots in my knees. 

He told me give it 4-6 weeks time for full recovery before the next set of injections in both my ankles again.  Anyway I am feeling a little better in my left ankle now that it has been 4 weeks, since my 1st injection in that ankle.  I have been doing research on HGH and I think that's going to be the next step to a full recovery.  I talked with him about it and hopefully I will get the green light so I can start my recovery and get back to my normal active self again.  Getting injured sucks.  But that's what happens when you get older I guess.  I just turned 33, and sometimes I feel like I am 83 when I cant walk.  I guess all one can do is change your lifestyle and try to help the body heal itself.  I really made huge changes in my diet, dropped 55 lbs., started working out and being more active.  I am trying to stay positive mentally and I feel by changing my diet and also with the addition of exercise I will change my current handicap situation. 

As far as the insurance company I am currently fighting them to cover my shots which they told me they cover, anyway my OS was cool and lowered the price on them substantially because I am laying the money out of my pocket until I settle up with the Insurance company.  I filed a grievance against them (BLUE CROSS BLUE SHIELD)  I wrote a letter and also I am getting supporting literature on the procedure from the company that I am submitting to them.  They pulled the phone records of my call in to them initially, before I had my 1st shot and they heard that the woman told me it was OK to go and get the shots after I gave her the codes for the injection to see if they would cover it.  So I have that going for me and I am going to fight them.  Anyway I will update you all in a few weeks...


Thanks......
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on April 30, 2009, 03:29:52 AM
I saw a sports doctor yesterday who wants to try me on PRP.

I got an Xray done yesterday too which showed that although my cartilage was nearly all gone on the medial side, there was a still a bit there. I was pretty happy as my OS a few years ago predicted I would be needing an osteotomy right about now).
I asked the sports doc about the injections as I had read about them having to be fairly accurately guided right into the trouble spot, but he said that because the knee was filled with fluid, if he injected  this stuf finto the knee fluid in a  general location, the PRP would eventually squish its way around to the areas that needed it. Does this sound right to people?

He said they had been using this therapy on arthritis for the last 6 months (much longer for other conditions) and that it helped some people, pain wise. I'm not really sure of what to expect in terms of cost, but if I feel no different, I was wondering if it wasn't worth persevering, just to get some nutrients into the knee and hopefully stave of  surgery for a few more years?

Ive also read on here people getting growth hormones or stem cells injected. I havent heard of this being done here in the boondocks (Australia), but I think I will try and bloodhound it out. It sounds promising.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: DennisF on May 02, 2009, 06:32:36 AM
Hi NikkiE,

Would you please let me know who you're seeing in Australia that wants to try PRP? I've had no luck finding anyone in Sydney using it...except for racehorses.

A NZ prolotherapist I was in touch with was excited about it after having recently returned from a conference in California but he isn't set up for it yet as he says it requires ultrasound guidance for accurate delivery to the area:

US guided injections into joints are now standard. The likelihood of missing the joint space without US guidance, even by experienced surgeons, is in the order of 70% for shoulders and 50% for knees. Targeting the jointcapsule or other structures outside the joint without US guidance becomes a hit and miss affair. Hip joints are easier to inject than knees. This has all been well documented.

BTW, for anyone who's interested, I got an email from Dr Dunn from iagh.com, the Florida doctor who treats cartilage wear with intra-articular injections of rHgH in combination with no weight-bearing for two months, saying though rHgH grows surface cartilage in joints it is not suitable for torn meniscii.

DennisF


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 02, 2009, 01:46:32 PM
I went in today for my 1st PRP shot in my right ankle.  It was painful, but not as painful as the shot in my left ankle, which was Excruciating Pain!!!  My OS said that there was probably more room in my right ankle for the injection as far as spacing between the joint.  He said the reason the left ankle injection hurt more was because I was feeling the pressure of the shot being injected into the joint where there was no room at all. 

I asked him about adjusting for pH and he said that it has nothing to do with that.  I also asked him about prolotherapy for my knees and he said he wouldn't recommend it, because there is no science behind it.  He said that he doesn't really think that it will help me.  If the PRP works for me in my ankles than I am definitely going back for PRP shots in my knees. 

He told me give it 4-6 weeks time for full recovery before the next set of injections in both my ankles again.  Anyway I am feeling a little better in my left ankle now that it has been 4 weeks, since my 1st injection in that ankle.  I have been doing research on HGH and I think that's going to be the next step to a full recovery.  I talked with him about it and hopefully I will get the green light so I can start my recovery and get back to my normal active self again. 

Intra-articular injections should not be painful.  Your doctor is doing something wrong.

The doc SHOULD adjust the pH and make him research this with the machine manufacturer.

Look at Prolo this way:  do it and if it works, keep doing it.  FYI, my ankles were so screwed up, that it took about 4 months of constant sprain feeling from prolo before I turned the corner.  What made the difference?  Intense workouts and serrapeptase (used to "eat up" scar tissue).

I know prolo works because I have had it done on my hands, knees, shoulders and hips.  In not so bad areas (knees) only 1 treatment and all pain was gone.  It is just a matter of how bad off you are.

Although a strong proponent of PRP ( used it), I am even a stronger one of HGH.  From my research, HGH regrows cartilage from the ground up (stem cells).  You should try both and make up your own mind.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 02, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
BTW, for anyone who's interested, I got an email from Dr Dunn from iagh.com, the Florida doctor who treats cartilage wear with intra-articular injections of rHgH in combination with no weight-bearing for two months, saying though rHgH grows surface cartilage in joints it is not suitable for torn meniscii.

DennisF

I didn't think Dr. Dunn owned a computer, LOL.  He is a bit more behind the times I thought.  I would get faxes and letters from him but never emails.

I have to agree with Dr. Dunn.  The thing to consider here in researching cartilage degeneration:  what is causing the cartilage to be lost?  Not many people go that next step.  You must or you lose sight of the true cure.  This is why I additionally went to Prolotherapy which, BTW, would be used on your torn meniscus.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 02, 2009, 02:10:25 PM
He said they had been using this therapy on arthritis for the last 6 months (much longer for other conditions) and that it helped some people, pain wise. I'm not really sure of what to expect in terms of cost, but if I feel no different, I was wondering if it wasn't worth persevering, just to get some nutrients into the knee and hopefully stave of  surgery for a few more years?

Ive also read on here people getting growth hormones or stem cells injected. I havent heard of this being done here in the boondocks (Australia), but I think I will try and bloodhound it out. It sounds promising.

I think you have the wrong attitude.  First, don't do this to "stave off surgery".  Your goal is too narrow.  You have no idea what your body is capable of doing if it is given the right stimulus.  The goal is COMPLETE recovery for the rest of your life!

I am not saying any one modality will accomplish this.  What I am saying is a regimen of nutrition, proper exercise and the right stimulus to help the body heal itself will bring the joint back to full condition.  Knowledge is key.  I research at least 1-2 hours a week on arthritis.  I look at supplements, prolo, intra-articular injections, and anything else that goes in that direction.  If you are spending the time writing on the board, you are motivated.  We all hope you well but the better you do and report back, the more others will learn, including me!

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections to the knee- and exercise therapy
Post by: leon1 on May 02, 2009, 04:20:36 PM
GB,

  I had PRP done on my knee due to lax ligament and damage cartlige. I get mixed messages on how to treat the knee after PRP. I was told by one doc not to put pressure on it for 2 months,  Another doc encourage movement in the knee by walking, so as to circulate the blood flow and strengthen the muscles around it.

  What are your thoughts ??

NA
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on May 03, 2009, 01:24:19 AM
NA,

Yoga for improved blood circulation around the knee works wonders for me. Notably the "pigeon" poses which work the hips leave me feeling super afterwards. Unfortunately, time constraints allow me to Yoga at home once a week, but my knee always feels super the day afterwards.

After each adminsitration of shots, My MD has always advised me to rest for the first week, and then to exercise doing circular motion activities like cycling,because it helps increase the movement of the fluids and promote faster healing of the knee. He also said not to perform any of the motions that originally caused pain. No squating, lunges, twisting motions (obviously i'm talking about knee activities).

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on May 04, 2009, 11:52:14 PM
He said they had been using this therapy on arthritis for the last 6 months (much longer for other conditions) and that it helped some people, pain wise. I'm not really sure of what to expect in terms of cost, but if I feel no different, I was wondering if it wasn't worth persevering, just to get some nutrients into the knee and hopefully stave of  surgery for a few more years?

Ive also read on here people getting growth hormones or stem cells injected. I havent heard of this being done here in the boondocks (Australia), but I think I will try and bloodhound it out. It sounds promising.

I think you have the wrong attitude.  First, don't do this to "stave off surgery".  Your goal is too narrow.  You have no idea what your body is capable of doing if it is given the right stimulus.  The goal is COMPLETE recovery for the rest of your life!

I am not saying any one modality will accomplish this.  What I am saying is a regimen of nutrition, proper exercise and the right stimulus to help the body heal itself will bring the joint back to full condition.  Knowledge is key.  I research at least 1-2 hours a week on arthritis.  I look at supplements, prolo, intra-articular injections, and anything else that goes in that direction.  If you are spending the time writing on the board, you are motivated.  We all hope you well but the better you do and report back, the more others will learn, including me!

Ben

Hi Ben
Of course I want my knee back - and in the last few years I have tried every quack cure known to man in an attempt to heal myself. But the Xrays show that it has gotten worse despite my best efforts. It would be the ultimate if this PRP treatment were to work, but i don't dare to hope that this would be any more than a stop gap measure. Especially when the doctor says to me "the reality is you will need a knee replacement at some stage".

I too spend countless hours a week trawling the net to try and find a "cure", but there seems to be a lot of promise, but not much delivery. Treatments are years away yet and I suspect it will be too late for me (and many, many other people) by then.

Anyway, I have my first injection scheduled tomorrow afternoon. I have all my fingers and toes crossed that it will make a difference!!

Thanks for your answer, its nice to hear positive stuff from time to time!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Catie23 on May 06, 2009, 06:03:25 PM
I had 9 PRP injections in my right knee last Wednesday 4/27 for chondromalacia patella. At this point, I'm still limping and am wondering when the pain will go away? My doctor said it would last 4 days and I'd be able to play in my soccer game tomorrow...definitely not the case! Anyone with similar experiences? It's gotten better every day but I am still using the Vicodin at night and hurting a lot.

Thanks! Catie
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Catie23 on May 09, 2009, 05:40:02 AM
Thank you! I appreciate your comments. I started stretching yesterday and am feeling better today. I'm still super tight and sore behind my knee, so stretching my quad or squating really hurts.

Was anyone given any sort of stretching instructions or post injection advice? My doctor just told me no ice, no ibuprofen and to rest 4 days before returning to sports.

Thanks!
Catie
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on May 09, 2009, 05:46:57 AM
Catie,

     No stretching or any type of chiropractic manuevers at this point since your collagen tissues are shrinking and tightening to stabilize the knee! Stretching the knee will only bring the ligaments back to it's original length when it was injured!

      Noel
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 10, 2009, 07:17:54 PM
Catie,

     No stretching or any type of chiropractic manuevers at this point since your collagen tissues are shrinking and tightening to stabilize the knee! Stretching the knee will only bring the ligaments back to it's original length when it was injured!

      Noel

Noel,

I absolutely have to differ with you on this.  Much research into this subject and what to do after treatment has led me to believe the opposite.  Our bodies respond to outside stimulus.  If you do nothing, the body will rebuild as if the stress on it is reduced. 

I personally have taken the route of increasing my workout directly after prolotherapy to induce stress on the body.  Not only does it seem to help with pain management caused by prolotherapy, but it seems to increase my rebuilding. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 10, 2009, 07:29:52 PM
Hi Ben
Of course I want my knee back - and in the last few years I have tried every quack cure known to man in an attempt to heal myself. But the Xrays show that it has gotten worse despite my best efforts. It would be the ultimate if this PRP treatment were to work, but i don't dare to hope that this would be any more than a stop gap measure. Especially when the doctor says to me "the reality is you will need a knee replacement at some stage".

I too spend countless hours a week trawling the net to try and find a "cure", but there seems to be a lot of promise, but not much delivery. Treatments are years away yet and I suspect it will be too late for me (and many, many other people) by then.

Anyway, I have my first injection scheduled tomorrow afternoon. I have all my fingers and toes crossed that it will make a difference!!

Thanks for your answer, its nice to hear positive stuff from time to time!

I am sorry you don't have doctors that think differently.  I went through 5 doctors and 10 years before I found the ones that could help me.  I am on the road to full recovery now because of many reasons but most importantly prolotherapy coupled with intra-articluar HGH shots. 

I was past needing an ankle replacement.  Dead bone in the joint said it all.  What drove me to a solution?  Not believing that you can't rebuild cartilage.  All doctors prior told me this and it just did not make sense so I dug.  Look at your situation specifically.  What is it the doctors are telling you that is not making sense?  We should not fully believe all that doctors say.  They have knowledge but not knowledge of everything.   

I am not cynical about doctors, only realistic.  Here is the reality:  a replacement knee in the US can cost $20K and insurance will generally pay full amout at the time of procedure.  To rebuild that same knee to BEYOND the level of an artificial one is probably $5K - $10K over a period of a year and is generally NOT covered by insurance.  Reality bites but if you understand, then you can adjust your thinking accordingly to get the the solution you need.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on May 10, 2009, 08:22:58 PM
Catie,

  I agree with you!.....you have to induce stress to you joints to get the blood flowing, and to stregthen tissues around the joint.
  Where we differ in oppinion is doing any type of stretching manuvers to the affected areas. Light stretching is ok.

   Attached is an article from Caring Medical about Prolotheraph and stretching. (Scroll to #6)

   http://www.prolotherapy.org/article.asp?prolotherapy=808
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on May 20, 2009, 12:00:42 AM
Hi All

I just thought I'd post what my PRP procedure entailed and what it seems to be doing.

My Dr told me I should have one injection every week for  4-6 weeks. I asked if I needed to do anything special i.e. rest the knee afterwards, and he said to carry on as normal otherwise we wouldnt be able to tell to what extent it was working.When I asked what kind of success rate he had had he mentioned a woman with similar damage to mine , except in her ankle, who felt so good after a couple of injections she went for a run! That gave me a great deal of hope, but I remember reading somewhere that ankles respond better than knees.

Anyway, I had my first injection about 3 weeks ago and am about to have my third today.

After my first injection the knee felt a bit "full" and sore for a day or so, but after that there was dramatic improvement in my pain levels, compared to just before the injections. I was still feeling a little pain but the injection had definitely taken a rather large edge off it. The best part of all was that it wasnt spasming itself into a locked position when i slept and producing a lot of pain when I moved or turned over. I was, and still am having sleep that at least isnt interrupted several times a night by my knee. :)

That week though, I did nurse my knee somewhat and also had  a bout of sinus which laid me up and kept me from exercising.

After the second injection (last week), I had the same fullness and soreness etc. This week however, the pain seems to have come back - not to the same extent as before - but it has been a bit sore now for a couple of days.

I put this down to three possible factors:

1. I upped my cycling. Having not done anything for a while I jumped right in and tried to do the same amount as before my lay off.

2. I went out on the weekend a couple of times and drank an excess of alcohol. For some reason this always seems to make my knee sore.

3. The phone rang downstairs and I rushed down to get it. Without thinking, I swung down off the bannister end and practically jumped the last few stairs (supported by the railing). I dont why I did it, I have not done anything like that for a number of years. I feel like I forgot myself and thought I was 25 again lol. Perhaps because my pain was dimished ?

The pain this week is a bit of a disappointment as there was such a dramatic improvement after the first injection. I thought that if it improved the same amount each time, I would be pain free in no time. I certainly dont feel like going for a run like the ankle lady! (not that i would) However i know its only been three weeks and I should give it time. Patience is not my strong suit. ;)

I will talk to the doc today and see what he says.

Cheers
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on May 20, 2009, 04:56:43 AM
Nikkie,

  Your body produces fresh collagen on top of your injured ligaments to strengthen and reinforce what you have. These new collagen shrink the ligaments and tighten up to stablize the joint. These new ligaments also are thicker and stronger. Compare it to a fresh cut on your skin.. the skin tissues shrink to form new and stronger tissues. Yes, these new tissues need to be strengthen by exercise. But keep in mind that these fresh tissues are in its infancy stage. I would advise to SLOWLY and gradually increase the exercise on the joint. Any thing done drastically may stretch the ligaments back to it's pre injured stage.

  As far as the alcohoL:
   The success of PRP and Prolo is very dependent on your immune system. Alcohol definetely has a detrimental effect on your immune system. It also may be that ths sinus infection you had may have slightly over worked your immune system. As a result, was not able to produce the necessary hormones needed for PRP to perform at ts optimal levels.

   I am not a doctor. These are simply my theories.

  Hope this helps.

  NV


quote author=NikkiE link=topic=46074.msg456166#msg456166 date=1242774042]
Hi All

I just thought I'd post what my PRP procedure entailed and what it seems to be doing.

My Dr told me I should have one injection every week for  4-6 weeks. I asked if I needed to do anything special i.e. rest the knee afterwards, and he said to carry on as normal otherwise we wouldnt be able to tell to what extent it was working.When I asked what kind of success rate he had had he mentioned a woman with similar damage to mine , except in her ankle, who felt so good after a couple of injections she went for a run! That gave me a great deal of hope, but I remember reading somewhere that ankles respond better than knees.

Anyway, I had my first injection about 3 weeks ago and am about to have my third today.

After my first injection the knee felt a bit "full" and sore for a day or so, but after that there was dramatic improvement in my pain levels, compared to just before the injections. I was still feeling a little pain but the injection had definitely taken a rather large edge off it. The best part of all was that it wasnt spasming itself into a locked position when i slept and producing a lot of pain when I moved or turned over. I was, and still am having sleep that at least isnt interrupted several times a night by my knee. :)

That week though, I did nurse my knee somewhat and also had  a bout of sinus which laid me up and kept me from exercising.

After the second injection (last week), I had the same fullness and soreness etc. This week however, the pain seems to have come back - not to the same extent as before - but it has been a bit sore now for a couple of days.

I put this down to three possible factors:

1. I upped my cycling. Having not done anything for a while I jumped right in and tried to do the same amount as before my lay off.

2. I went out on the weekend a couple of times and drank an excess of alcohol. For some reason this always seems to make my knee sore.

3. The phone rang downstairs and I rushed down to get it. Without thinking, I swung down off the bannister end and practically jumped the last few stairs (supported by the railing). I dont why I did it, I have not done anything like that for a number of years. I feel like I forgot myself and thought I was 25 again lol. Perhaps because my pain was dimished ?

The pain this week is a bit of a disappointment as there was such a dramatic improvement after the first injection. I thought that if it improved the same amount each time, I would be pain free in no time. I certainly dont feel like going for a run like the ankle lady! (not that i would) However i know its only been three weeks and I should give it time. Patience is not my strong suit. ;)

I will talk to the doc today and see what he says.

Cheers
Quote
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on May 20, 2009, 11:34:46 PM
Thanks Noel for your reply. It makes sense.

I saw the Dr yesterday for my third shot. I talked to him about it and he said that it takes about three months to be able to tell if its helping or not. He also pointed out that it had only been 2 weeks (three injections) since I had been having prp threapy, so I guess I need to be patient and try to keep positive.

I had my first bad night with my knee since I started last night. I'm hoping its just cos of the injection. My arthritis does like to play nasty little tricks by playing possum and making me believe its all gonna be alright, and then its hits me with a whammy and my mood plummets again!

He seemed surprised that my knee got sore after cycling and said it isnt supposed to load the femroal/tibial bit and usually just aggravates the patella. I'm really hoping he doesnt tell me to stop as I had to stop running for the rest of my life because of the arthritis. Bike riding is usually deemed to be 'safe' for OA sufferers. I dont know how many of you feel like this this, but I need to exercise - good, heart-pumping excercise - almost like I need food and drink!!!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on June 15, 2009, 05:57:24 AM
Hi All

I've just discovered this paper that has been published by Dr Steven Sampson, Dr Michael Gerhardt, & Dr Bert Mandelbaum

http://www.orthohealing.com/news/12178_2008_9032_OnlinePDF.pdf

I will be following this with much interest..

JM

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on June 29, 2009, 02:55:26 AM
Hey everyone getting all those shots!

Alright...  I'm watching this thread with great interest and I'm mostly interested in Farrah...and the guy getting the shots for his stretched ACL. 

In one knee I have jumpers knee  The other knee is *just* a stretched ACL.  Fun:)

I hope farrah comes back.:) Come back Farrah!!!

Also..in the ACL...GB did you ever get the prolo injected directly into the ligament or just into the joint space?

Nice to meetchya!

~Crumpet  ;)



 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Adrianne on July 16, 2009, 03:07:20 PM
Hi everyone:

I posted a while ago about my knee, but it turned out that I also have rotator cuff tendonitis which worsened and caused me enough pain that I had to do something.  I've had prolo one time, June 12 and won't be able to go back until early August.  It was sore the 1st week, the 2nd week seemed quite a bit better, but from the 3rd week on, it's been very painful.  I know the protocol is 3-6 treatments, but I'm quite discouraged at this point, having felt no improvement but feeling worse.  Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

GB - have you been able to get mri/xrays to determine if cartilage has grown back?  Would love hear any details of your progress.

Thanks very much for any input!
Adrianne
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on July 16, 2009, 04:19:16 PM
I would try the PRP or Regenexx for rotator cuff if prolo does not help.
Title: Re: PRP injections to the knee- and exercise therapy
Post by: gb on July 20, 2009, 03:18:45 PM

Noel -

My experience has been that PRP works effectively well for ligament and tendon laxity. The jury is still out on its effectiveness for repairing damaged cartilage, although I've read up on positive results and will be getting an x-ray soon to see for myself. I'm currently undergoing treatment that combines PRP with some HGH and glucosamine along with prolotherapy, so I'm receiving a whole range of injections at each session, and the knee is feeling about 90% improved after 10 months of treatment. (9 series of injections in 11 months_)

How to treat the knee after PRP ? after the injections, I wait a full 3 or 4 days before engaging in an light session of stationary biking for 45 minutes. (after injections, welling usually abates after 2 days, and then I wait another day or 2 for the soreness to dissipate). 

Any circular motions, like biking, to increase movement of fluids and promote faster healing is encouraged by my doctor, as long as it does not cause pain. I always feel BETTER the day after my first biking activity following the injections.

Hope this helps
gb

 

GB,

  I had PRP done on my knee due to lax ligament and damage cartlige. I get mixed messages on how to treat the knee after PRP. I was told by one doc not to put pressure on it for 2 months,  Another doc encourage movement in the knee by walking, so as to circulate the blood flow and strengthen the muscles around it.

  What are your thoughts ??

NA
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on July 20, 2009, 04:23:07 PM
Adrianne -

DILIGENCE and PATIENCE. I experienced immediate relief after injection #1, and it only got better after each visit. But my wife required at least 2 visits before she saw improvement on her wrist and knee. It may take you 3 visits, but once you feel progress, it'll make it all seem worthwhile.

Also, on your next visit, be diligent and make it clear to the doctor your experience after the first visit. He may adjust treatment based on your feedback.

George




Hi everyone:

I posted a while ago about my knee, but it turned out that I also have rotator cuff tendonitis which worsened and caused me enough pain that I had to do something.  I've had prolo one time, June 12 and won't be able to go back until early August.  It was sore the 1st week, the 2nd week seemed quite a bit better, but from the 3rd week on, it's been very painful.  I know the protocol is 3-6 treatments, but I'm quite discouraged at this point, having felt no improvement but feeling worse.  Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

GB - have you been able to get mri/xrays to determine if cartilage has grown back?  Would love hear any details of your progress.

Thanks very much for any input!
Adrianne
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on July 23, 2009, 03:40:53 PM
GB

My surgeon who is the team doctor for the famed USC Trojans football team has been giving PRP for both ligaments and cartilage regrowth to the USC team players. His modus operandi has been 1 injection / month for about 6 months.  Don't forget that growing cartilage takes time and its not an overnight affair.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Adrianne on July 30, 2009, 08:20:18 PM
Thank you, Rob, 3cd and George....  I will be patient and clear about my pain.  I guess I had George's experience of relief after the 1st round in the back of my mind and somewhat expected the same.  My appt is next Thurs., so we'll see! 

One other thing, that I sort of hesitate to ask about, but.... I'm seeing the same doc as you, George, and I'm wondering what you thought about about him, how he acted.  He was very UP when he saw me, talked about all the supplements he had taken that morning and it made me quite nervous that he was so wired.  I know part of his practice is the supplements, and I'm fine with a sales pitch, but I really was questioning his ability to inject me properly.  Did you or your wife have a similar experience?  If so, how did you handle it? I'm very anxious about it, even though I'm sure I'll go through with it - I need to be able to throw a ball and swim with my kids again, among other things!

Thanks again,
Adrianne
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: madel23 on July 31, 2009, 01:21:06 PM
"US guided injections into joints are now standard. The likelihood of missing the joint space without US guidance, even by experienced surgeons, is in the order of 70% for shoulders and 50% for knees. Targeting the jointcapsule or other structures outside the joint without US guidance becomes a hit and miss affair. Hip joints are easier to inject than knees. This has all been well documented."

Does this apply to something as simple as synvisc or other halyuronic acid injections?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: madel23 on August 01, 2009, 04:54:53 AM
I don't have a source, this is what someone said earlier in the thread.  And I've never heard of ozone injections.  What are they?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on August 01, 2009, 05:06:39 PM
I came across Ozone therapy over a year ago. Here's a link providing a list of doctors who treat using Ozone therapy. http://www.oxygenhealingtherapies.com/my_ozone_doctor.com.html#-ozone-therapy-ontario

I've never been treated for ozone. But I may investigate it for cartilage regrowth since a few of these MD's practice in my city. I've flown to Chicago 9 time for my PRP injections (worth every trip!)

gb

I don't have a source, this is what someone said earlier in the thread.  And I've never heard of ozone injections.  What are they?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on August 01, 2009, 10:52:19 PM
Hey Everyone:

Its great to hear such encouraging stories.  Glad to hear about the doubts too.:)

I just started my shots last week. 

Surprise, Surprise! Hardly any swelling after.  Very tolerable!


Over and out till I have more good news...

~C:)

   
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on August 14, 2009, 01:04:14 PM
hope everyone is doing good.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on August 14, 2009, 05:24:27 PM
Crumpet,

Dextrose is a form of sugar, or glucose and is injected in 10-20 areas around the joint in question in order to induce inflammation. PRP is a growth factor extracted from your own blood through a centrifuge and is injected with one shot into the joint. (my knee joint). I believe, and this is an educated guess, that the prolo shots (dextrose) cause more swelling due to the sheer number of shots with the objective of trying to create inflammation. If no inflammation occurs, then the healing process doesn't start and you've wasted a prolotherapy session.

PRP, combined with Prolo,  I'm told, accelerates the healing process. so it's the equivalent of getting 3-4 prolotherapy sessions of just Dextrose injections.

PRP cost me about $400 (I'd need to double check my receipt) per injection. 1 injection per joint is all you need. And my canadian insurance doesn't cover the expense. It's very effective with healing Tendon and ligament laxity, which is a real cause of pain in many patients, and partial tears

gb

Gb:

I have some questions...I'm not sure you can answer but thought I'd give it a shot.:)

Is PRP more or LESS inflammatory than the Dextrose shots? :o

The doctor told me the PRP is only slightly better (meaning heals the person more efficiently) than the dextrose prolotherapy. 

YET..the prolohawaii website says:

"To date, my experience is that one PRP treatment is the therapeutic equivalent of three or four prolotherapy/regenerative injection therapy treatments using dextrose."

AND...I've even seen someone report that PRP is essentially like Prolo on steroids.

To that...you say what?

I'm thinking my tendinosis is sooooooo very severe, the blood might be the better option. I don't want to stretch out the time and pain if that is something that can be avoided.

Is PRP more expensive for doctor to administer?  I have no insurance...so I'd like to know if the doctor is likely to increase his fee if I request the blood shots.  I think I read that he has to use a special needle and that has a significant cost attached to it. Is this your understanding?


Thanks...

~Crumpet
 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on August 14, 2009, 06:22:40 PM
GB:

Well..thanks for those insights.  I see that your doc has a differing approach to mine.  I rather like your docs approach!:)

Mine did two prolo shots on one knee. (one into the joint)
Then at later visit did four on that same knee. (one into the joint)

Hope all is going well for you...GB. 

~Crumpet











 


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: lisa Voykin on September 02, 2009, 05:53:52 PM
hi there, wow its so nice to find this site, I felt like I was the only person in the world dealing with this. I have read alot about the prolo and PRP, I have a few questions that I am wondering if people can provide advice on. First my situation.

I have a condition called elthers danlos, or hypermobility sydrome, my knee joint and other joints are very mobile and move around too much. I was a gymnast and runner for years. when I was 32 I started to experience bilateral knee pain and on left knee medial pain along jointline. I could walk for months. And so started the cycle of trying everything under the sun to get better. I got an mri and they saw chrondamalacia under kneecap pretty sever but nothing around joint lines. Basically from the crunching I know that my ligaments and tendons and cartilidge is over stretched and overused so the tissue has degenerated. The fact that I have loose knees doesnt help with stability either. So I am trying prolotherapy. I have some questions I need help answering from the people that have gone through it.

1) nutrition - I am beating myself over everything - did I take enough viatims, is my digestive tract healthy enough, do I have a good immune system, do I have dairy? I want to be in the best optimal shape and I am struggling with what to eat and take everyday?

2) exercise - my left knee hurts constantly it hurts to stand, to walk, to exercise to bike for 5 or 10 or elliptical whatever. There are varying degrees - ie bike hurts more than elliptical, etc. how much activity and what exercises should I do to ensure I am letting the joint heal, but getting nutrients to the area and not going mental - (while I was pregnant I layed around all day did no exercises and my muscles went into atrophy which caused more pain not to mention I slipped into major depression) I would never do more than walk for an hour or elliptical for 30 mintues or cicuit training, but someone said no squats - that is what the pysio therapist is saying is crucial for me to do to build my quads back up but is this impeding healing.....can anyone help here?

3) PRP - I have tried prolo but not PRP, is caring medical the best one out there? how expensive is it? I live in canada, does anyone know of anyone in canada doing this?

thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on September 03, 2009, 01:34:57 AM
A question about inflammation.

I stupidly went out the week before last and drank too much and was dancing the night away (cos I was feeling no pain!)  However it caught up with me and for the next few days afterwards my knee was shocking! I went and got a PRP injection four days later (already scheduled in) and expected it might improve things. Instead, my knee has been very painful, and its clicking and cracking more than before. It feels like he injected battery acid in there, and has done for about 7 days straight.

I have heard that inflammation is good because it means the PRP is working on the site, but this is ridiculous. I have been avoiding using antiinflammatories because I dont want the PRP to stop working, but at what point is too much inflammation a bad thing? I'd really love to pop some nurofen but am reluctant if it's gonna interfere with the PRP.
Any ideas?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on September 03, 2009, 08:48:14 PM
Nikkie:

Hey what a cool thing. Out dancing! ;)

Well... My guess is you already know the dancing/drinking thing was probably not the best idea...but you probably didn't do any real harm there.

Hope you are feeling better soon.

~Crumpet. ;D





Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on September 03, 2009, 09:07:02 PM
Lisa:

Sorry to hear of your injuries.  REALLY...they sound pretty disabling...and sad. :-[



Be patient....and be careful.:)

~Crumpet :D


 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on September 03, 2009, 10:58:45 PM
Thanks crumpet!
I guess with this disease you sure do pay for your pleasure.
I eventually got desperate and took some Nurofen (ibuprofen) last night, and this morning I noticed a big improvement. Previously I'd been taking paracetamol with not much result, and panandeine forte (paracetamol and codeine) at night which helped some.
The pain sure does hinder you. I cant even walk around the block, let alone exercise. Cant sleep at night and am cranky pants all the next day. Where would we be without pharamceuticals lol
Thanks again for the advice :)


Nikkie:

Hey what a cool thing. Out dancing! ;)

Well... My guess is you already know the dancing/drinking thing was probably not the best idea...but you probably didn't do any real harm there.

For my prolo stuff...my doc says Darvocet/Ultram or tylenol are good choices. If you let the pain build up....you wind up behind the curb a bit. I like to keep the darvies in my back-pocket in case the pain goes into the red zone...but most of the time its just tylenol.

Hope you are feeling better soon.

~Crumpet. ;D






Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on September 05, 2009, 01:02:50 AM
nikkie:

Glad you are feeling bit better.:)

Just so you know, most folks avoid the advil anti-inflammatory as its thought to counter the positive effects of the prp/prolotherapy.  This is why tylenol or darvocet are considered better choices...when wanting to manage pain. I would have expected your doc to go over that with you...so you'd have a good idea what your options are.

Lets hope you get passed all this soon!

~Crumpet



 

 


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on September 15, 2009, 06:04:29 AM
Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah

I will reiterate that your pain and swelling is a required healing that the body must go through.  I would not ice. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on September 15, 2009, 06:05:27 AM
Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah

I will reiterate that your pain and swelling is a required healing that the body must go through.  I would not ice. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on September 15, 2009, 06:11:27 AM
The whole Premise behind PRP and Prolo is to encourage inflamation so that your tissues  receive the blood it needs to heal. Icing reduces inflamation and retards blood flow. Adding heat to the tissue encourages inflamation and gets blood where the injury needs healing.

NV


Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah

I will reiterate that your pain and swelling is a required healing that the body must go through.  I would not ice. 
Hi Summer, I guess that's where doctors are different in their ideas.  They told me to not take any NSAID meds, but I could ice.  The soreness right now is very tolerable.  The entire time it has been tolerable.  I was prepared for much worse.  I guess it helps that I have percoset for my pain medication!  Today is less sore than last night and I am actually using my leg more today.  Yesterday I didn't want to use my leg b/c it hurt a lot around the tendon.  My OS told me to rest for a few days, so I will be doing just that except for other MD appts. 

Farrah

I will reiterate that your pain and swelling is a required healing that the body must go through.  I would not ice. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on September 24, 2009, 04:27:45 AM
Hi Adrienne:

I think its great that you are trying prolo for other things besides your knee. 

How did the knee turn out?



Its  quite the journey...but it sounds like you may have just be going through the normal stuff.

Good luck...

~Crumpet

 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on October 18, 2009, 05:53:27 PM
Hi All

Does anyone have any updates on their progress with PRP and cartilage regrowth?

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: abuiltmale on October 23, 2009, 12:43:39 AM
   I've had both my SI joints in my back and my foot injected. My foot was sores as hell for a couple of weeks, but it really helped. My back had no pain from the shots and it improved my back pain by 80%. DR Alan Lazar who injected me also does stem cell injection in a regular surgery setting ( not in his office). He did tell me starting this Nov he will be doing a combination of PRP and stem cell injections together in his office. This man is truly amazing !
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on October 23, 2009, 12:50:22 AM
I'm not sure that my PRP is even really working. Ive been getitng it done for about 6 months now and havent noticed a huge difference. I still have good and bad days, no day is ever pain free, and the bad days outnumber the good. The only difference I can tell is that when the knee is in its "good" phase, it is really good. But bad days (and nights) are just as bad as ever.

From my understanding most people experience ongoing, gradual improvement with every shot.

Is this right?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on October 24, 2009, 05:45:23 PM
Nikkie

So  you 've had 6 injections of PRP from the "Harvester machine"  (1 per month?) and not a huge amount of improvement? Is that fair to say?

 I don't know which methodolgy is the best out there right now. Stem cells / Microfracture with stem cells is the latest from Dr Steadman in Vail. Dr Shaw in Kuala Lumpur is doing modified microfracture with stem cells too. My local surgeon has recommended PRP and says that that is working for his athletes, so I have been hopeful that you Nikkie were getting sorted with the PRP. I have had 5 injections of stem cells so far and whilst I am improved, I am not as healed as I had hoped to be at this juncture. I still have one more stem cell injection to come. It will be 6-9 months post that injection before I really know the outcome..

Lets all keep in touch and try and figure out the truly best solution for OA!! There are some very bright minds working on this!

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gorilla1969 on October 24, 2009, 06:48:39 PM
Just wanted to contribute my experiences with cartilage regeneration and injections.  I first heard about Dr. Dunn and his IAGH injections on this site and wanted to contibute my experience after having taking this road.  My problem involves a painful right hip joint.

Late last year I submitted my name to his clinic in North Miami for consideration for his injections.  After completing a questionnaire (being of a younger age, having a low body weight, and a non-smoker are key to successful candidates), an MRI, and a large battery of blood tests to see if I'd be receptive to the drugs, I received a call from Dr. Dunn nearly four months after the initial completion of my tests.  Be forewarned - seeing Dr. Dunn requires a lot of patience as is a very busy individual.  The doctor stated that I had some bone-on-bone occurring, bone cysts, and a pelvic deformity which was preventing some motion.  He felt I was a good candidate and told me I'd require surgery followed by an estimated ten double dose injections in the hip joint.

My medical history includes being diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis at age 3, remission in my early 20s, and some continued pain due to the residual damage from having the disease for so many years.  I am now 40 years old and my right hip has become noticeably more painful over the last 5 to 7 years.

The doctor suggest arthroscopic surgery (using a fracture table to apply the heavy traction on my hip) along with a 3 inch incision to remove the bone deformity.  I proceeded with the surgery - the cysts were removed, the bone deformity was extracted, and the exposed dead bone was shaved to expose live cells.  Dr. Dunn stated to me that making the bone 'bleed' is necessary for any chance of cartilage regeneration.  

The injections began the two days after my surgery and continued weekly for the next fifteen weeks.  X-rays are taken during every visit to document cartilage growth and I required five more shots than originally believed necessary.  The treatment is not covered by medical insurance so I enrolled in my employer's medical FSA prior to starting the treatment to help offset the pricey injections.  The doctor stopped at an estimated 2.5-3mm cartilage thickness where I originally had none.  

I'll be frank and tell you that the injections are not entirely pain-free.  I'd term them as 'very uncomfortable' but bearable.  He does inject a local anesthetic prior to the IAGH shot but there is some pain felt in the last inch or so as he enters the joint capsule.  Also be aware that the doctor is attempting to breach the joint without the help of a camera so the injections are not always quick (at least, that was my experience for the hip).  He's relying on his professional anatomy skills to position the needle correctly.  However, considering the difficulty, he's amazingly good at guiding the needle.

As of today, I'm currently still on crutches but will be weaned down to one crutch in three more weeks (four weeks after the last injection) and then to no crutches another four weeks after that.  Athough I cannot say for certain the treatment has worked given that I am not walking yet, I can tell you I've seen the x-rays over the 15 week period and a very noticeable gap has formed in the joint between the bones where there was originally none.  My joint also feels much better and there is no pain in movement.

I hope this helps anyone with any questions they might have had.  I plan on following up with my final results once I get off my crutches. ;)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on October 24, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
Hi
I've actually had more than 6 shots. I had one a week for the first month, then one shot roughly every 3-4 weeks, so its more like 10 shots.

However the last time I was there he said they had beeen doing tests and found that the solution became more concentrated if they centrifuged it for a bit longer, which he did and then injected me with it.

Maybe Ive been getting shots up until this point which were a more diluted version than they were supposed to be(?). I felt improvement in the begining, and it stopped bothering me at night for a while, but that has returned now. Unless this was some kind of placebo effect....or maybe my body is getitng used ot it?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gorilla1969 on October 25, 2009, 11:05:24 PM
I was originally supposed to have 10 injections.  I saw no change for the first 7 or so injections and ended up with having a total of fifteen shots.  I have approximately 2.5 - 3mm of cartilage regrowth.  Not quite ideal but good.  I believe the treatment is in it's infancy and the doctors don't really understand all the factors why some patients benefit more than others.  I'm thankful for having gained some benefit but, of course, wished for a quick and full regrowth.  The science is very new. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on October 26, 2009, 12:16:43 AM
Thats so great you got some regrowth! Its given me new determination to persevere with it. :)
Do you happen to know how many millimeteres is the normal thickness of cartilage? How long does the healing process contune for I wonder?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gorilla1969 on October 26, 2009, 12:33:56 PM
I'm not an expert but my understanding is 3-4mm is close to a normal joint. Insofar as healing time, I'm assuming 8 weeks after the last injection for a fully usable joint (the doctor told me I'd be using 1 crutch four weeks after the last injection and no crutches after eight).

The process can be frustrating as it took much longer than I anticipated and wasn't a full success, not to mention I hadn't budgeted $ for the additional 5 injections.  Then again, I remind myself how lucky I've been to find this treatment and Dr. Dunn.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on October 26, 2009, 03:01:06 PM
I'm not an expert but my understanding is 3-4mm is close to a normal joint. Insofar as healing time, I'm assuming 8 weeks after the last injection for a fully usable joint (the doctor told me I'd be using 1 crutch four weeks after the last injection and no crutches after eight).

The process can be frustrating as it took much longer than I anticipated and wasn't a full success, not to mention I hadn't budgeted $ for the additional 5 injections.  Then again, I remind myself how lucky I've been to find this treatment and Dr. Dunn.

gorilla1969

Thanks for your contribution to the board. Your story is bound to be of use to members. I had previously called down to Dr.Dunn office to inquire about his procedure but opted instead to continue with Prolo + PRP which has worked well to repairing/strengthening my ligaments and tendons. One thing Dr. Dunn does differently compared with the Prolo guys, is to methodically measure cartilage growth with each patient visit. As patients our #1 priority obviously is for the pain to go away but seeing proof through x-rays is a nice feature to have. For some,  its virtually impossible to tell if the pain is caused by ligament laxity or cartilage degeneration. And the more scientific the doctors get the more accurate medical practitioners can diagnose pain.

gb

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on October 27, 2009, 01:07:07 AM
I'm not an expert but my understanding is 3-4mm is close to a normal joint. Insofar as healing time, I'm assuming 8 weeks after the last injection for a fully usable joint (the doctor told me I'd be using 1 crutch four weeks after the last injection and no crutches after eight).

The process can be frustrating as it took much longer than I anticipated and wasn't a full success, not to mention I hadn't budgeted $ for the additional 5 injections.  Then again, I remind myself how lucky I've been to find this treatment and Dr. Dunn.

gorilla1969

Thanks for your contribution to the board. Your story is bound to be of use to members. I had previously called down to Dr.Dunn office to inquire about his procedure but opted instead to continue with Prolo + PRP which has worked well to repairing/strengthening my ligaments and tendons. One thing Dr. Dunn does differently compared with the Prolo guys, is to methodically measure cartilage growth with each patient visit. As patients our #1 priority obviously is for the pain to go away but seeing proof through x-rays is a nice feature to have. For some,  its virtually impossible to tell if the pain is caused by ligament laxity or cartilage degeneration. And the more scientific the doctors get the more accurate medical practitioners can diagnose pain.

gb

gb


Ah right. I was misunderstanding that gorilla was having HGH injections. I though he/she was having straight out PRP. Unfortunately my doctor has been unwilling to try the HGH, and I cant find anybody else in Australia who is using it for OA.

Its great to hear other people's stories and what has worked for them.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: brandonswords on October 31, 2009, 06:26:05 PM
gb,
First off thank you for posting your story.  Your successful pain diminishment is encouraging to anyone with knee pain.
I am eager to know whether you have had the subsequent x-rays.  My understanding is that you would judge any cartilage regrowth from the glucosamine injections with these x-rays; I haven't seen that post yet, unless I missed it.  Thank you once again and I look forward to following your success story.
brandon
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on November 01, 2009, 02:05:50 AM
So Gorilla1969

You have had a series of IAGH injections from Dr Dunn in Florida? Human Growth Hormone interarticularly injected correct? Its important for other readers to be able to easily follow this thread.

I was into seeing Dr Marc Darrow yesterday in West Los Angeles. He has a very nice bedside manner and has his own ideas on prolotherapy. He showed me photos of a past patient that had almost complete recovery with touching femur / tibia to a good wide space showing on the X-Ray 7months later for the same patient, where he told me that that improvement was as a result of prolotherapy.  It looked very impressive. Its funny though as my surgeon also in LA wouldn't even give me a prolotherapy shot for  my knee. He believed it was injurious to the knee and would not perform the injection.  I 'll be seeing Dr Centeno on Monday for stem cells. I'll keep you all in the loop..

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on November 04, 2009, 01:34:48 AM
Hey All!

Glad to see the updates. WOAH... interesting stuff.



Take care everyone.  I'm REALLY impressed with how this stuff knits ya all back together.  I'm about 50 percent of the way there...and about 2 grand in. I wonder if I'll be good as new in six months.

~Crumpet




 


 




Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on November 04, 2009, 05:20:38 PM
I have to schedule PRP and I was wondering what everyone appears to be paying? I know Dr Sampson in LA is charging $1500 and that is certainly expensive. What is everyone else charging? Help here would be great!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob wilson on November 05, 2009, 08:08:26 PM
John,

I keep losing your cell number. Call me.  The Cleveland Clinic is now doing PRP for $300 per area. My pain management does it for $400 per area. Hauser in Chicago does it for a little more but he does PRP + prolo in the same area for added effect.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: abuiltmale on November 06, 2009, 10:39:39 PM
      If you don't get any relief from your 1st PRP injection, I wouldn't waste my money on further injections. You need to give it at least 4 weeeks. Any Dr who wants to give you a 2nd injection before a month after your 1st injection, , I'd find another Dr. Most people get the relief they need after 1-3 injections. I've had 3 injections in my foot, but in diff. areas. It worked wonders. In my SI joints in my lower back, I got one in each joint to give me the relief I needed.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on November 10, 2009, 01:21:52 AM

I have found all shots to provide some relief... That part just seems to take a while sometimes.:)




 

 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on November 10, 2009, 04:17:19 PM
Hi All

For what its worth I got PRP and the clinic is trying to bill the insurance company. I am sure I am going to get charged back. I've been quoted $800.00 for what was a 20 minute procedure. No wonder Health care costs are out of control. I will had that this injection was 1 week after getting Mesemchymal stem cells into the same knee. Dr Centeno has recommended that I get another injection in 2 weeks from now.

Oddly enough my surgeon who did the injection of the PRP gave me a study to read that reckoned that PRP has and will repair hyaline cartilage in knee joints. However I am just experimenting here with my own knee!

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on November 11, 2009, 12:06:21 AM
Hi All

For what its worth I got PRP and the clinic is trying to bill the insurance company. I am sure I am going to get charged back. I've been quoted $800.00 for what was a 20 minute procedure. No wonder Health care costs are out of control. I will had that this injection was 1 week after getting Mesemchymal stem cells into the same knee. Dr Centeno has recommended that I get another injection in 2 weeks from now.

Oddly enough my surgeon who did the injection of the PRP gave me a study to read that reckoned that PRP has and will repair hyaline cartilage in knee joints. However I am just experimenting here with my own knee!

JM

Hi Jim
Just wondering if the article your doctor gave you had a weblink? Its sounds interesting. Good luck with it all
cheers
:)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on November 12, 2009, 01:39:55 AM
Nikkie

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/37/11/2259.abstract

This is the link.. The cost for the full printout is $32.00..
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on November 16, 2009, 12:20:16 AM
thanks!  :)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: runlolarun on December 04, 2009, 01:56:58 PM
Hi all,

I just stumbled on this thread, great news for a lot of you!

My story's similar: in 2006 a doctor told me I had osteoarthritis in my right knee (no surprise there, I'd injured it badly 3x in my 20s, when I was dancing professionally), and I've had patellar femoral issues in my left for a while.  However, he told me I could continue to run, just not long distances.  Since then, I have continued to run, approx 20 miles per week.  I feel no pain running, in fact my knees feel better when I run every day than they do when I bike (counterintuitive, I know).  My only complaint was that the range of motion in my right knee was not what it should be:  I could not sit on my heels on the right.  Also, of course I always feel this sense of anxiety that I'm doing myself harm by running...because of all the incendiary press about arthritis...bla bla bla, you know the drill: no cure, TKR yadda yadda "don't run!" hysteria hysteria.  To me it's a cost/benefit analysis:  i know the risk, but running is really the only exercise i purely love doing, and I'm one of those people who NEEDS exercise every day in order to feel like a normal human being.  I also do a lot of core and leg exercises to keep strong, and I keep the muscles loose with foam rollers, trigger point balls, etc.

Last year I started getting prolotherapy injections in both knees, and have had about 6.  Oddly enough the worse knee improved significantly in terms of range of motion, now i can *almost" sit on my heels with no pain, but the less bad knee didn't respond as well.  So yesterday I had my first PRP session.  To me, the initial pain was about comparable to prolo, but the PRP pain seems to be lasting longer, esp in my left (the "good") knee.  We'll see what happens.  I'm really heartened to read the stories of all the folks who have posted. 

So keep posting!  Let us know your stories!

later
lorien
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: NikkiE on December 07, 2009, 08:57:43 PM
Hi all,

I just stumbled on this thread, great news for a lot of you!

My story's similar: in 2006 a doctor told me I had osteoarthritis in my right knee (no surprise there, I'd injured it badly 3x in my 20s, when I was dancing professionally), and I've had patellar femoral issues in my left for a while.  However, he told me I could continue to run, just not long distances.  Since then, I have continued to run, approx 20 miles per week.  I feel no pain running, in fact my knees feel better when I run every day than they do when I bike (counterintuitive, I know).  My only complaint was that the range of motion in my right knee was not what it should be:  I could not sit on my heels on the right.  Also, of course I always feel this sense of anxiety that I'm doing myself harm by running...because of all the incendiary press about arthritis...bla bla bla, you know the drill: no cure, TKR yadda yadda "don't run!" hysteria hysteria.  To me it's a cost/benefit analysis:  i know the risk, but running is really the only exercise i purely love doing, and I'm one of those people who NEEDS exercise every day in order to feel like a normal human being.  I also do a lot of core and leg exercises to keep strong, and I keep the muscles loose with foam rollers, trigger point balls, etc.

Last year I started getting prolotherapy injections in both knees, and have had about 6.  Oddly enough the worse knee improved significantly in terms of range of motion, now i can *almost" sit on my heels with no pain, but the less bad knee didn't respond as well.  So yesterday I had my first PRP session.  To me, the initial pain was about comparable to prolo, but the PRP pain seems to be lasting longer, esp in my left (the "good") knee.  We'll see what happens.  I'm really heartened to read the stories of all the folks who have posted. 

So keep posting!  Let us know your stories!

later
lorien


Hi there

That's interesting because with the PRP I have found my 'good' knee (well, the less damaged one), seems to have gotten worse since I started PRP injections 6-7 months ago and I cant figure out why.
I think it could be one of three scenarios:
1. the PRP injections are inflaming the damage site and hopefully repairing it.
2. the PRP injections are doing zip and the knee is just getting worse as the disease progresses
3. the PRP injections are somehow worsening the condition.

Hopefully it is  option 1!!

Also I had to switch from running to cycling a few years ago, and 'everyone' says cycling is good for OA, but I have found that the cycling can sometimes make it feel worse and flare it up.

PS I totally understand what youre saying about needing to exercise :)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: runlolarun on December 08, 2009, 05:22:59 PM
Quote

Hi there

That's interesting because with the PRP I have found my 'good' knee (well, the less damaged one), seems to have gotten worse since I started PRP injections 6-7 months ago and I cant figure out why.
I think it could be one of three scenarios:
1. the PRP injections are inflaming the damage site and hopefully repairing it.
2. the PRP injections are doing zip and the knee is just getting worse as the disease progresses
3. the PRP injections are somehow worsening the condition.

Hopefully it is  option 1!!

Also I had to switch from running to cycling a few years ago, and 'everyone' says cycling is good for OA, but I have found that the cycling can sometimes make it feel worse and flare it up.

PS I totally understand what youre saying about needing to exercise :)

Hey,

Well I've never heard of PRP making things worse, and I've done a lot of research.  So you're probably left with options 1 and 2.  Also, I cannot help but think that even if PRP's not curing your arthritis, there is a lot of evidence that it does strengthen ligaments and tendons, so I don't think your situation is staying status quo, as in option 2.

You know, I cycle too, although I'm not crazy about it.  When I was first diagnosed with arthritis, the doctor told me i should look into triathlons instead of just running, so for a while I did.  The odd thing is, and I think I mentioned this before, my knees feel better when I run than when I bike.  Idk whether that's just because I like running better so subjectively I just feel better in general.  No idea.  But, you will be heartened to know that there was recently an article in the NY times that speculated that running isn't all that bad for arthritis, and *may* even prevent further degeneration by keeping the joint mobile and lubricated.  Of course all that depends on where you run, how you run, biomechanics, etc. etc.  Who knows? 

As of today: (fifth day after PRP), my knees feel pretty good, the "better" knee feels almost normal.  I went back to cycling this a.m., probably won't try running for another week or so.  Again, we'll see. 

How's your "worse" knee? 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: tlsps on December 20, 2009, 05:19:19 PM
gb-How did the PRP/HGH injections and Prolo work for you under Dr Hauser at Caring Medical in Chicago?  I have bone-on-bone and thinking about getting an appointment.  Do you know of any other breakthroughs that are out there that may be even more cutting-edge (stem cell/microfracture)?  I just found this board this weekend and am intrigued by the input all are sharing.  This helps narrow down the search for the right procedure and the right doctor for each unique problem.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: thevoice on December 20, 2009, 06:11:19 PM
A UK hopsital is now doing stem cell repairs for cartilage defects - its a world first apperently - they take stem cells from youre bone and mix it in with a product called cartifill which has been devloped in Asia by a top orthepdic resercher - its acts as a scafold for the stem cells - apperently its a day case produre, faily cheap and has about a 6 week recovery - so far there reporting 80% sucess rate - its very new stuff. was all over UK news few days ago.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Lottiefox on December 20, 2009, 07:31:39 PM
Excellent post thevoice - a bit of google finds this:

http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=111792925

very interesting especially as it appears to help patella based problems.....notoriously hard to graft onto and nigh on impossible for microfracture....

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: thevoice on December 20, 2009, 09:47:52 PM
yeah its very exciting news, I think we are going to see quite a lot of stem cell based treatments suspended within scafolds over the next few years...Off top of my head a company called mesoblast are hoping to release a off shelf stem cell product by 2012 and another company from Canada called BST are releasing a product called cargel in 2010 - results from the trials are coming out late this year and ealry next - the intial results - MRI and Biopsie showed improve cartilage tissue quauilty compard to microfracture - another company called Tringenix also bought a uk company which has a scafold type product which soaks up stem cells from the bone and repairs defects - thats expected to hit european markets next year also.

There are countless other univeristies, companies working on stuff as well - I think regentive mendicne will be big in this next decade and beyound.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Lottiefox on December 21, 2009, 11:45:16 AM
Having spoken with his secretary today, Mr Shetty the consultant in the Cartifill work in the UK is meant to be giving me a call in the next few days to discuss suitability. His work is certainly impressive but with it being so new I think you've got to enter it with an open mind - I'm keen to know that if the Cartifill fails what state are you left with? If it just "fails" and you're back to square one, then OK.....not great...but if it fails and leaves sludge and chasms then it might need a tad more refiining...

I've seen the Mesoblast work, very interesting. I'm also big on the Regenexx possibility, probably because I can spend 2010 having lovely trips to Colorado!!

I agree with you, regenerative medicine is going to explode in the next 2 years IMO, thats why I'm holding off the microfracture that my OS wants to do in February!!!  :'(
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on January 17, 2010, 04:19:31 AM
Hi All

Whilst this posting isn't exactly on topic, I thought that I'd share it with everyone. I injured (a bulging disc syndrome ) my L5/S1 lumbar spinal disc with bad posture rowing about 8 months ago. I got from Dr Centeno a derivative of PRP called Platelet Lysate + some dexsamethosone(steroid) injected adjacent to my L5/S1 joint in late September of 2009.

The effects of pain on my lower back at the time were severe. Within 2 weeks the wild wild pain was gone. Since then I started to rehab the back with 2 1/2 miles of swimming/week. I laid off the swimming over Chrismas 2009, and have just started back with rehab. About 3 weeks ago the complete beneficial effects of the drug wore off (ie the severe pain removal). I pressed on with some swimming, and have since migrated to some light jogging (an oxymoron if ever I've said one). Since starting the jogging about a week ago, my back appears to be behaving wonderfully! I am a true believer in PRP and its healing powers. I have to say that that single injection is all I've had in my back for the injury. Whilst it maybe to early to say my back is fixed I am certainly in  much better shape.

For the record I am going to see my surgeon who can give me PRP on Monday for a check up on my left knee and I aim on getting another PRP shot for my recovering left knee too.


Its the way to go using your own body to fix itself! One thing to know about cartilage it takes forever get going and grow, expect to have the healing continue to work for at least 12 months post procedure.


Best wishes

JMc
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Toni Ree on January 18, 2010, 09:58:03 PM
My OS is planning on using PRP along with the surgery that I will undergo on Friday.  I'm so glad it has been a benefit for people, because I'm really looking forward to the end result. ;D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on February 15, 2010, 01:30:47 AM
gb-How did the PRP/HGH injections and Prolo work for you under Dr Hauser at Caring Medical in Chicago?  I have bone-on-bone and thinking about getting an appointment.  Do you know of any other breakthroughs that are out there that may be even more cutting-edge (stem cell/microfracture)?  I just found this board this weekend and am intrigued by the input all are sharing.  This helps narrow down the search for the right procedure and the right doctor for each unique problem.

mostly the same as you. I've read of stem cell solutions that will likely shape the industry and introduce new treatments over the ensuing 10 years.

In addition to Prolotherapy with prp and HGH, I've also recently tried Ozone treatments, which I'll report on here next.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on February 15, 2010, 02:00:16 AM
For those that are following my progress, here's an update:

I've added Ozone treatments to my repatoire with positive results!

TO DATE:
11 prolotherapy treatments to date (with at least 4 weeks between treatments) in the past 18 months. 7 of those treatments included included PRP + prolo (sodium morriate, dextrose). 2 of those sessions had Prolo + testosterone and B12. and 2 sessions that included Prolo + HGH.

It's been a year and a half, and the 11 prolotherapy sessions have worked wonders for the ligament laxity in my knee. But not for the Cartilage. So I decided to try Ozone treatments for a change. They're cheaper, much less painful, and most important, an MD in my back yard in Totonto I could see regularly without travel.

The Ozone treatments are progressing well.

    * The initial goal of the Ozone treatments was to improve the chrodromalacia patella and tracking problem in my knee. I've received 10 injections directly under the knee cap over a 3 month period. The results have been good. The knee cap is tracking much more smoothly than before.

    * However, there remains occasional pain and/or stability weakness down around the back/right side of the knee, where 40% of lateral meniscus was removed 20 years ago by my surgeon. We're now administering Ozone directly into the knee joint, point of insertion farther down towards where the synovial fluid is. I am woking towards trying to regenerate the lateral meniscus that was lost, plus any articular cartligage.

I think the Ozone treatments are making a difference, although progress has been very slow.

With that being said, the range of motion and stability in my knee has never been better, so I think the PRP & Prolo treatments did the trick for the tendons and ligaments.  Now I've decided to combat the degeneration of cartilage, and it's proving to be much more difficult. But I remain optimistic that the Ozone is doing something  positive based on better tracking and smoothness of the patella. Hopefully it can do the same for the meniscus.

Seeing a different MD has certainly been advantageous. I've seen 2 Prolotherapy doctors, both are great, but do things a little differently, and my Ozone doctor had  some suggestions the other 2 did not, that also helped improve the cartilage regeneration.

Due to the positive results, I will be continuing Ozone treatments for the next little while. Really good solution, you just need patience if your injury was as severe as mine.

George B.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 06, 2010, 02:24:47 PM
Hi all,

It has been a while since I posted and I felt I wanted others to know of my condition since I posted last. 

I have had both ankles injected with HGH, Testosterone and PRP multiple times over the last 18 months (at least 10 in each).  Additionally, I have had prolotherapy done on all ankle ligaments.  The results have been fantastic.  It took probably 6 months of constant Prolo into the ligaments before that constant "sprain" feeling went away.  But once it did, the ankles felt better and I was able to walk although still with a limp. 

Over the last 3-4 months, I had to financially take time off from treatments.  In this time, the ankles kept getting better and better.  Currently, I am at a point where normal walking on a daily basis is pain free and I don't have a limp.  However, if I stand for a long time, do strenuous exercise or heavy lifting, my ankles will feel it the next day and for a few days after.  I know I have a ways to go but now, I can go about living a life with a focus on long term getting better and better.  I suspect to get the ankles back to where they were a decade ago, I will need about 2 more years.

This is a long road but worth it.

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on March 09, 2010, 05:07:20 AM
For those that are following my progress, here's an update:

I've added Ozone treatments to my repatoire with positive results!

TO DATE:
11 prolotherapy treatments to date (with at least 4 weeks between treatments) in the past 18 months. 7 of those treatments included included PRP + prolo (sodium morriate, dextrose). 2 of those sessions had Prolo + testosterone and B12. and 2 sessions that included Prolo + HGH.

It's been a year and a half, and the 11 prolotherapy sessions have worked wonders for the ligament laxity in my knee. But not for the Cartilage. So I decided to try Ozone treatments for a change. They're cheaper, much less painful, and most important, an MD in my back yard in Totonto I could see regularly without travel.

The Ozone treatments are progressing well.

    * The initial goal of the Ozone treatments was to improve the chrodromalacia patella and tracking problem in my knee. I've received 10 injections directly under the knee cap over a 3 month period. The results have been good. The knee cap is tracking much more smoothly than before.

    * However, there remains occasional pain and/or stability weakness down around the back/right side of the knee, where 40% of lateral meniscus was removed 20 years ago by my surgeon. We're now administering Ozone directly into the knee joint, point of insertion farther down towards where the synovial fluid is. I am woking towards trying to regenerate the lateral meniscus that was lost, plus any articular cartligage.

I think the Ozone treatments are making a difference, although progress has been very slow.

With that being said, the range of motion and stability in my knee has never been better, so I think the PRP & Prolo treatments did the trick for the tendons and ligaments.  Now I've decided to combat the degeneration of cartilage, and it's proving to be much more difficult. But I remain optimistic that the Ozone is doing something  positive based on better tracking and smoothness of the patella. Hopefully it can do the same for the meniscus.

Seeing a different MD has certainly been advantageous. I've seen 2 Prolotherapy doctors, both are great, but do things a little differently, and my Ozone doctor had  some suggestions the other 2 did not, that also helped improve the cartilage regeneration.

Due to the positive results, I will be continuing Ozone treatments for the next little while. Really good solution, you just need patience if your injury was as severe as mine.

George B.

Title: Protocol for Knee prolo Injections: can we come up with best practice?
Post by: pmt on March 09, 2010, 09:10:31 PM
To those of you who have done multiple Knee Prolo Injections:
There seems no be no established protocol for return to exercise nor studies on ability to return to exercise, so we on this forum may have to come up with our own.  Hope some of you are game.

My story:  Marathon runner with some arthritis in both knees.  Left asymptomatic; Right used to buckle and click while running.   Also Left ankle posterior tibialis tendonities.   MRI at of Right knee showed "30% chance of posterior horn lateral meniscus tear".   Orthopod said, "rest it, and you could have synvisc, but the damage is done".  This was not an acceptable solution, so I turned to prolotherapy.

Have done in total 7 rounds of prolo:  3 dextrose solutions (1 month apart) to knee and ankle.   2 dextrose + HGH.  2 dextrose + ozone + iscador.

1 day after the shots, swimming only.   2nd day after the shots.... cycling.   3rd day after the shots, running at 60% of normal pace for maybe 45 minutes.   I have cut back on my running from 40 miles per week to max of 20 miles per week, and never run more than 3 days in a given week.

After these 6 prolo rounds..No pain while running!!!  to either the ankle with the tendonitis or the knee.     However, the day after running, I will have the "movie theatre" syndrome (stiffness when standing up after sitting) in the right knee.    I do lots of heating pad on the knees.  Also lots of Physio for the ankle and the knee.  Also glucosamine, DHA, hydrolyzed collagen and MSM.

Question 1:   does this sound like as good as it gets?   Or for the multiple shots prolo group-- are any of you getting beyond the stiffness?   I realize that I should be very thankful for what I can do... and I am.  It's a joy to run 3 times a week, even quite slowly.

Question 2:  Mixed opinions all over the place on when you return to weight bearing exercise?  Any consensus?

Question 3:  Think the HGH makes a difference?

Thanks, all.
Title: Re: Protocol for Knee prolo Injections: can we come up with best practice?
Post by: runlolarun on March 10, 2010, 01:41:59 AM
To those of you who have done multiple Knee Prolo Injections:
There seems no be no established protocol for return to exercise nor studies on ability to return to exercise, so we on this forum may have to come up with our own.  Hope some of you are game.

My story:  Marathon runner with some arthritis in both knees.  Left asymptomatic; Right used to buckle and click while running.   Also Left ankle posterior tibialis tendonities.   MRI at of Right knee showed "30% chance of posterior horn lateral meniscus tear".   Orthopod said, "rest it, and you could have synvisc, but the damage is done".  This was not an acceptable solution, so I turned to prolotherapy.

Have done in total 7 rounds of prolo:  3 dextrose solutions (1 month apart) to knee and ankle.   2 dextrose + HGH.  2 dextrose + ozone + iscador.

1 day after the shots, swimming only.   2nd day after the shots.... cycling.   3rd day after the shots, running at 60% of normal pace for maybe 45 minutes.   I have cut back on my running from 40 miles per week to max of 20 miles per week, and never run more than 3 days in a given week.

After these 6 prolo rounds..No pain while running!!!  to either the ankle with the tendonitis or the knee.     However, the day after running, I will have the "movie theatre" syndrome (stiffness when standing up after sitting) in the right knee.    I do lots of heating pad on the knees.  Also lots of Physio for the ankle and the knee.  Also glucosamine, DHA, hydrolyzed collagen and MSM.

Question 1:   does this sound like as good as it gets?   Or for the multiple shots prolo group-- are any of you getting beyond the stiffness?   I realize that I should be very thankful for what I can do... and I am.  It's a joy to run 3 times a week, even quite slowly.

Question 2:  Mixed opinions all over the place on when you return to weight bearing exercise?  Any consensus?

Question 3:  Think the HGH makes a difference?

Thanks, all.

Yeah I can reply to the stiffness question, and the "return to weight bearing" question, concerning my own experience.

I, like you, have asymptomatic arthritis in left knee, and worse arthritis in righty.  I was never a marathon runner, my running always maxed out at about 25 miles per week or so.  I never really had much pain while running, but my right knee before prolo/prp was pretty stiff all the time, I couldn't touch my heel to my butt type of thing, early morning "tin man" type walking...annoying pops and clicks, and took forever to warm up.

I had about 6 prolo sessions over about a one year period.  During prolo, I'd do nothing for about two days, then biking for a week.  After that, slowly back to running.  Prolo helped with the stiffness, but not as much as I wanted.  So i tried PRP

PRP has made a huge difference in ROM I am really thrilled to report.  I've had 3 injections, each one month apart, and I'm getting my fourth this Thursday.  After that probably not again for several months.  The morning stiffness is almost completely gone, and I can *almost* sit on my heels with no discomfort.  I have no pain when running.  At this point I run about 5-6 days per week, but only 3 miles per day, because honestly it feels better on my knee to run short distances on consecutive days than it does to run longer on less days and then rest or bike or something in between.  I know, I know I'm weird...that fllies in the face of everything peeps say one should feel, but there it is. 

Now here's the thing tho, with PRP it takes me about two weeks to get back to running.  The first 3 days i can't really do anything, except maybe some slow qigong.  Then I can bike or do elliptical starting by about day 4.  I do that for 10 days or 2 weeks, then start running again. (Then I run for 2 weeks, and bam...another injection...haha...but this week is the last one, phew).

I've also started doing a lot more core and leg exercises, which I think is also helping.  The Prolo and PRP have made me able to do things like squats that used to hurt, so I can strengthen anything that was atrophying.

Have no idea about HGH, so can't speak to that. 

Glad you posted, glad to have another crazy runner on here...
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Lottiefox on March 10, 2010, 08:39:17 AM
I'm still interested in PRP injections - lola - I know you and I share the same love of continued exercise on our creaky knees! (Although I am not a runner at all now!). Do you have actual detected cartilage damage? I am not expecting PRP to magically regenerate chunks of my missing cartilage but if it can help with general function and the stiffness then maybe I should be thinking of it during the next few months whilst I wait for the promised surgical developments with cartifill and my knee (next year my OS says he will be able to do it via scope...I prefer that option!).

I'd love to be able to cope with doing more to strengthen what is vanishing too...... ;D

Thanks

Lottie  :)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: pmt on March 10, 2010, 02:08:56 PM
Thanks Runners and PRP'ers!   
When you reflect on the whole process.... do you think the PRP is making a difference above and beyond the prolotherapy for your knee stiffness?   Such that it warrants the additional cost?

The reason that I'm asking is that my #2 prolotherapist (who is definitely after a buck) actually suggested that the cost/benefit of the PRP would not be good for a knee, and thus suggested the HGH.    I'm still kind of itching to try the PRP, but I can do 4 standard prolo treatments for the cost of a single PRP treatment, so I have been hesitating.  Additionally, the quick return to running after standard prolo means less down time.   

Ah... if only there were enough of us to standardize the recommendations.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: runlolarun on March 10, 2010, 03:09:50 PM
PMT, Yes, I do think PRP has been worth it, my knees actually feel *almost* normal...and believe me they haven't felt like that in a while! 

However: caveat, it is also true that I've lately been doing a lot more strength stuff, AND my PRP guy uses a fluoroscope to properly place the injectiosn whereas my prolo guy, (who was also great in  his way)  relied more on just injecting where I said I hurt.  ALSO, I plan to wait a couple months after my last PRP injections before I can truly say what it did.  I mean I don't know if the knees will feel better or worse down the road.  So...for now, I'd say definitely that PRP is worth it if you get a real good dr. to do it.  My guy has beendoing it since 2002, so he isn't a n00b. 

Lottie:  I'm sure i have cartilage damage, although I've never had an MRI.  I don't think PRP will change that.  Xrays of right knee show joint narrowing...yadda yadda, and I have degenerative changes in the joint.  But I'm a strange case because I had my first knee injury when I was 18, and danced pro for years, so I got used to creaky knees.  I know what works and what doesn't.  For me, oddly, running works.  I think I have pretty decent form so I'm not stressing my knees when I run.  I also do a lot of my running on grass and dirt.  It's all a cost benefit thing, and so individual.   Running keeps me from serious depression (not a joke!) and its the only thing that does...so...well you do the math...Brain trumps knees! If you visit the runners world board and search for arthritis you'd be surprised at the people who have osteoArth, and still run marathons and even ultras.  Cartilage is poorly understood...

I've heard PRP with surgery is a great option,  Idk.  Thought you were looking into regenexx? what happened with that?

ps I had to modify this sucker b/c i keep spelling cartilage wrong.  You'd think I'd know how to spell THAT word...
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: pmt on March 10, 2010, 04:15:44 PM
Hello Runlolarun,
Thanks for your comment on proper placement of the PRP.  That's been my key question--how to know what to shoot.  When the surgeon uses fluroscopy, what is he/she aiming for?   For example, directly injecting into a meniscal micro-tear; or into an area of the joint space with cartilage degradation?  It sounds like the precise placement would indeed make a difference.   
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: runlolarun on March 10, 2010, 04:27:17 PM
When the surgeon uses fluroscopy, what is he/she aiming for?   For example, directly injecting into a meniscal micro-tear; or into an area of the joint space with cartilage degradation? 

for me, the latter.  Anecdotally, I have heard that correct placement matters more for PRP than prolo b/c of the growth factors, stem cells etc, that are presumably in the plasma, so you want to get them into the area.  For prolo, I assume since you are just trying to irritate the tissue, correct placement matters less, but I dunno.  Like I say though, this DR has been doing PRP and Prolo for a while, so he's good at it. 
If you've got a meniscal tear, I *imagine* they'd want to target that...but I don't know.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Lottiefox on March 10, 2010, 06:58:10 PM
Hmmmm...me going to look into PRP.  :D

Lola - i know what you mean about staying sane - I've never been a runner but if someone took away my gym workouts and strength work I'd be seriously depressed and the knee would have won. It is partly my fear of surgery - how on earth can I manage without training for several weeks - although as soon as i could I'd be back and in there on crutches!

regenexx is still an option - but I am UK based and they are denver - and the recent scans and CT stuf show patella tilt, loose bodies, bone spurs yada yada etc - so regenexx are very honest about how much new cartilage might grow if the biomechanical issues are still the same. the same would apply to PRP but I can get that in London rather than 3 trips to Denver!! (and the injections are less too!!)

This is s useful thread, cheers both for waking it up

Lottie  ;D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 14, 2010, 05:21:55 PM
To Pmt, Run and Lottie,

Here is my opinion from extensive research and my own results and knowing what I know now what I would do:

HGH by far gave me the most in the form of cartilage rebuilding.  Its results are well documented in studies and with me.  Here is the caveate to all trying to rebuild:  you need to do more injections than you think.  If I could do it again (and had the money), I would inject HGH once a week for a year.  Since even bodybuilders will inject up to 5 IU a day, there really is no concern of overdose...and 5 IU per joint is a minimum since there is a direct correlation to IU's and cartilage growth.

Regarding rebuilding weight bearing, Dr. Dunn (the know leading expert in HGH and cartilage) shows  a lower percentage of success on knees and hips because it is harder to make them non-weight bearing for the many months of cartilage rebuilding.  However, I have found (with my personal experience) that you can inject more often and get the same results in longer time if you are weight bearing (like 3X the time).  Dr. Dunn is trying to get results for you in 7-8 months and with 10 or so shots when really the complete rebuilding of cartilage may take years with weight bearing and twice that many shots.

As for injections of HGH with dextrose or ozone, etc., I would never do this.  HGH is very fragile and can be broken down just by the shaking of the bottle when you first hydrolize it. 

As for the point of exercise, I would start working out immediately, the same day.  I have found better results by doing this not only in pain relief but in improvement long term.

Regaring pain and PRP, is your doctor neutralizing the Ph before he reinjects?

Ben
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 15, 2010, 02:12:31 AM
Bioactive nanofiber gel matrix may promote new cartilage growth

A Must read:

http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=60655

This is what we have to look forward to in years to come.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 15, 2010, 11:58:51 AM
Bioactive nanofiber gel matrix may promote new cartilage growth

A Must read:

http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=60655

This is what we have to look forward to in years to come.

gb

Thanks for this.  Unfortunately, this is similar to most research I have seen:  cartilage defect research.  I rarely, if ever see research on complete rebuilding of worn joints.

Anybody have research on worn joints?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on March 23, 2010, 03:09:44 AM
GB,

   I too had a partial menisectomy  done on my meniscus 23 years ago on my knee. I  have tried Prolo and in the process of trying Prolozone for  my menicus. How has your experience been with Prolozone so far since your last posting.. for treatment for your torn meniscus?

NV
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on March 24, 2010, 02:49:12 AM
Noel,

I'm glad you asked. I recently performed a follow-up MRI on my knee with positive results. I'll post the results in the next few days.

The Followup MRI compares with an MRI i had taken 2 years prior, just before starting Prolo + PRP + Ozone injections.

George B.

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on March 24, 2010, 01:17:23 PM
GB

Please do share with us the good news.. We are all hungry for good news.. If I have any major break thru's I'll be all over it for everyone's benefit..

Thanks again for the update..

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on March 28, 2010, 01:14:39 AM
George,

        Just like you, I have had success in tightening my knee ligaments with a series of treatments of Prolo and PRP, but still have alot of room for improvement with my meniscus (from partial menisectomy 23 years ago), and cartlidge.
     
        Did Prolozone do anything for your meniscus and cartlidge damage??  I am curious

   You mentioned that your ultimate goal was to get back into running. Where are you in the healing process as far as reaching that goal?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mainer on April 04, 2010, 02:24:06 AM
Ex hiker, runner, biker, basketball player here at age 51 with worn out meniscus both knees.....is there a chance that PRP or HGH for is helpful or is it the ligament damage that it's effective for?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 07, 2010, 02:13:34 PM
Leon1, Joel,

as promised here's a copy of my MRI report taken March 2, 2010. This report compares with a prior MRI taken January 11, 2008, BEFORE receiving any injections of PRP - Prolo - and Ozone. 

The findings reflect healing of the cartilage under the patella, which is consistent with the new smooth tracking of my knee cap, and pain that's now gone in that area. last year,  tracking in my knee was way off and I had loads of discomfort. Deterioration of cartilage under the knee cap I believe is called "Chondromalacia". I had chondromalacia, and now it's healed or healing.  Also, I believe the references in the report to all 3 compartments now being stabilized reflects the strenghthening of ligaments which has to be due to the Prolo & PRP. Before I began Prolo treatment, my knee was degenerating, and I was advised by 2 different doctors I'd require a knee replacement in 3-5 years. Now, according to the report, its stabilized, I have no pain, and actively compete in mountain biking. I could not ride a bike 2 years ago because of the pain. I'm glad I did not listen to my surgeons and found Prolotherapy / Ozone.

Notes: Definitions to help interpret a MRI report.

MRI “signals”
MRI creates images that looks black, white and shades of grey. “signals”.
High signal is a white appearing shade
Low signal is a dark shade
Normal knee has a “low signal” or “dark shade”

Chondropathy
Disease of the knee (III/IV)

Subchondral
When bone surfaces become less well protected by cartilage, subchondral bone may be exposed and damaged.

=======================================================
1. Compared to prior study, the grade III/IV chondropathy of the posterior aspect of the lateral femorotibial joint is unchanged. There has been no progression. The subchondral increased marrow signal on both sides of the joint that did predominate on the femoral side of the joint has decreased however. The increased signal associated with the patellar chondropathy has also slightly decreased, consistent with a partial healing process. The grade II/IV chondropathy of the medial femorotibial joint is stable.

2. Myxoid degenerative changes of the lateral meniscus. As previously described, there has been prior partial menisectomy with resection of almost the entire anterior root, 50% of the body and 40% of posterior horn. There is marked residual degeneration changes of the residual portion of the meniscus with ossification of it posterior root.

Myxoid degenerative changes also of the medial meniscus with mild increased signal that has a linear morphology in its posterior horn.this increased signal seems to be reaching the inferior articular surface of the meniscus next to its posterior root. These findings are consistent with a 12 mm long horizontal tear, although, the low signal suggests that it is a healed tear.

3. Status post ACL and PCL repair with intact reconstructed ligament. The collateral ligaments are normal.

4. No significant tendon pathology.

5. The suprapatellar mass previously described is still present. The discoid soft tissue nodule on the posterior aspect of the knee has disappeared, consistent with steatonecrosis.

Conclusion:
Stability of the chondropathy of all three joint compartments compared to prior study of January 11, 2008 with decreased subchondral marrow signal on both sides of the lateral femorotibial joint.
Finding consistent with a small tear of the posterior horn of the medial meniscus with signal characteristics consistent with a partial healing.

Radiologist.

I hope this helps.
George Bazos
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: leon1 on April 07, 2010, 03:23:35 PM
Geroge,

   This is excellent news! Thanks for sharing!! If you don't mind, I will share this with my doc who is sceptical about alternative medicine.
question:   So would you say that Prolo, PRP, HGH, worked on strengthening the ligaments, and that Prolozone worked on improving the cartlidge damage?  (I am currently working on improving my cartlidge damage, and already had many sessions of prolo and prp for my knee lligaments)

  L
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 07, 2010, 04:32:19 PM
George,

If you don't mind, I will share this with my doc who is sceptical about alternative medicine.
question:   So would you say that Prolo, PRP, HGH, worked on strengthening the ligaments, and that Prolozone worked on improving the cartlidge damage?  (I am currently working on improving my cartlidge damage, and already had many sessions of prolo and prp for my knee lligaments)

Leon,

You have a skeptical doctor?  Why is he still your doctor?  If you believe and have seen results yourself on you ligaments, you need to find those of like mind who can help you to focus on the cartilage.

Regarding your question on GH and the ligaments, that is not what our focus has been.  It has been on cartilage regrowth by intraarticular injection.  I have done IA with dextrose, PRP, testosterone and GH.  MY conclusion is that GH offers the most impact on cartilage regrowth.  What I have also concluded it that it takes many more injections and quantiites than most people realize...especially doctors.  FYI, one doctor is injecting 45 IU of GH at a time in the knee with a total of 8+ injections over time.  Not many doctor s are familiar with this kind of intensity.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on April 08, 2010, 03:15:00 AM
irentat,

I think you got me mixed up with another poster.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2010, 01:54:35 PM
irentat,

I think you got me mixed up with another poster.

gb
My bad...corrected.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: setix on April 09, 2010, 03:48:28 PM
Dear George,
I am also suffering deterioration of cartilage under the knee cap, "Chondromalacia".  Fortunately I have no problems at other parts of the knee joint but chondromalacia hurts a lot. Although I had arthroscopy/microfracture last year, my condition get worse. 
As I understand from your posts, your chondromalacia related problems were mainly solved after you started Ozone therapy. Do you think sole ozone therapy for chondromalacia works? Do you hear/believe is there any risk associated with Ozone therapy?

Thanks a lot.
setix
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on April 10, 2010, 06:09:30 PM
45 IU of HGH? I believe Dr. Hauser gives 2 IU per knee per injection. Is this Dr. Dunn who gives the 45 IU? The HGH definitely is for cartilage regrowth and the PRP is for ligaments. From what I have read it can take years and up to 15-20 injections to see MAJOR regrowth. It just depends. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: TapOut on May 13, 2010, 04:01:44 PM
Hi to everybody..

I have been reading this forum for some months ,and have finally registered.
I am 35 and train martial arts 4 times a week.
Like many more here I have condromalacia. First proven on the right side last year, and recently also found on my left side.
I also had peneditis and para minicitis(spanish name) in my right knee.

My doctor have prescribed me 4 shots of kortison via intra mucular so far this year, I asked about other treatments like hgh, but he had not heard about it! He did mention injections of some liquid that I can't remember the name of (acido something)

Anyway here are my questions
How is the hgh injected, in the knee or normal?
Will it have any effect on the cartilage using hgh like body builders do?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 18, 2010, 01:45:48 AM

How is the hgh injected, in the knee or normal?
Will it have any effect on the cartilage using hgh like body builders do?

When you say "normal" you mean subcutaneous?  All injections we discuss are directly into the knee.  Yes you will get general benefit by the long term use of HGH subcutaneous like body builders however the rebuilding of cartilage would be limited if non-existent.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: csaintorleans on May 19, 2010, 11:22:18 PM
Wow, I'm pretty glad to hook up with some people who have tried PRP, especially the runners.  I'm having a terrible time with recovery from PRP, which I had in March, and I wonder if this is normal.  So here's my story:

I went to a highly recommended sports doctor ("He does all the football players!")here in Spain, where PRP was born, I gather.  I had some pain in both knees, esp the left, and it seemed to be getting worse, esp at the end of long runs.  I should add that I ran a marathon in Feb, without any pain whatsoever.  But I'm 43, so when the knees (and hips) started hurting, I decided to see a doctor sooner, rather than later.

MRI showed  "grade 2 meniscopathy" (my translation from the Spanish), no tear.  Also low-grade chondromalacia (cartilage degeneration).  This, I'm told, is because of a hip deformity, and that's another kettle of fish, which I'll see about later...Doc recommended PRP to improve the knees, although he says I'm headed for hip surgery if I keep running.  Hmm.

I had 4 shots, with a week between each shot.  Two shots into the joint on each knee.  My doctor told me I would be able to do a Pilates class the day after each shot.  Ludicrous, my knees were like melons for days.  He told me I would have to take a week off from running after each shot.  After the first shot I had a bruised feeling on the front of one knee.  I assumed it was from the unaccustomed cycling, which I stopped.  After the third session, the fronts of both knees hurt, and I was having trouble with stairs. I mentioned this to my doctor, and he said nothing, proceeded to shoot me up. Now it's been 3 weeks since the last shot, and it sure seems like I have acute patella tendonitis, the pain wakes me up at night and easing into an armchair and walking down stairs are extremely painful.  This is clearly the result of the PRP, since I've never had anything of the sort until now--when I haven't run in almost 2 months.  I'm going nuts, since, like a number of you who have posted, I need to run to keep sane.  Also, I'm committed to run the NY Marathon for a charity in Nov.

Has anyone heard of anything like this before?  Should I give up hope of running in Nov?  My doctor is acting as though this is perfectly normal now, and just tells me to ice, although he certainly never suggested I might be out for months, or I would would have waited until after Nov to try the PRP. 

Bother.

I'm glad to read some of your success stories--I was becoming convinced that I'd fallen prey to quack medicine.  I sure hope that someone out there can reassure me that with a little rest I'll be back in my sneakers in a couple of weeks--please!

Thanks to all, glad I found you.  Carla

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 21, 2010, 06:28:42 PM
Carla,

Unless he did something really incorrect, you should be fine.  One thing to mention is that PRP is acidic compared to our joints and it should be buffered with an agent (sodium bicarbonate or such) to increase the pH.  Most likely your doctor did not do this.   

I do have to say it is strange the amount of pain you had.  I have given myself IA injections of of the wrong molarity and my ankle swelled up tremendously along with pain that I have not felt since before my surgery.  However, it did not worry me as I have had so many IA injections of different types that I know the pain goes away and does not cause damage to the joint.

If I was in your "shoes" and knew what I know now, I would not worry and just start working out.  YES just start going.  You can't hurt anything by doing this in fact, the body responds to stress by compensating for it (as we all know) but this is doubly important when your body is going through a phase of tremendous growth/restructuring.  I personally work out right after PRP and Prolotherapy for this reason.

Put on the Nike's and go do it.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on May 21, 2010, 08:42:46 PM
I agree that the exercise is good for the healing. The body actually likes it. It won't heal as well without the continuous motion. If this is your knee start with stationary with no resistance. It WILL help.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on May 21, 2010, 08:55:43 PM
I meant stationary bike.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: csaintorleans on May 24, 2010, 09:38:59 PM
Thank you, irentat & rob!

Are you SURE?  Can I really just go running?  But why does it hurt so much?  At night and when I wake up it really makes me groan out loud, and if I even run to cross a street, I feel like I'm doing something awful to my knees.  I'm dying to follow your advice, but it feels like it could be a disaster.  On the other hand, I have thought all along that a pain that definitely didn't come from running, shouldn't be exacerbated by running.  I'm going to get on a bike tomorrow to start with.  One thing I'm sure of, is that when one gets sad and floppy everything seems more painful and disastrous than it probably is.  Thank you so much, guys.  I'll let you know what happens.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 25, 2010, 08:45:44 PM
Thank you, irentat & rob!

Are you SURE?  Can I really just go running?  But why does it hurt so much?

If it does hurt that much, go with Rob's suggestions and go bike but just go.   

Regarding why it hurts, I have no idea.  Have you spoke with your doctor to see if he adjusted the pH?  This should be a phone call and not require a visit.  After analyzing pain in my joints for years, I still have no idea.  I just had the best day in 5 years, pain wise, 2 days ago and did biking for my cardio.  The next day, the joints felt like caca.  At this point, I don't worry too much because I know it cycles and today my joints are better.

I theorize that my joints are going through some serious restructuring right now and could be "growing pains".   My modality has changed tremendously from when I first started posting and what I do now would probably freak you all out but it works.  I ran for the first time in 8 years last week.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: runlolarun on May 28, 2010, 01:03:02 AM
Carla,

yeah I'd definitely get on the bike if i were you.  It will make you feel tons better, and biking shouldn't be painful.  I've been through several painful PRP sessions and some that were a lot less painful, it seems to be very individual. 

The only reason I wouldn't run if I were you is that when one hurts, one's form gets all wonky, and there's a possibility of more damage.  So, bike first.  You will at least get things movign and blood flowing.   During the time I was getting PRP I waited until any swelling was down and I wasn't feeling much pain before i went running.   Also, I had them one month apart, so there was a chance to recover between.

So yeah, work up a sweat!  the world will look rosier...

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: asplus on May 30, 2010, 02:00:08 AM
I searched for Dr. Dunn and this was the most active discussion.
I have been in touch with Dr. Dunn over the last few weeks and have sent him an MRI of my Rt. Ankle which has been diagnosed with severe arthritis.
Basically, I had an accident 30 yrs ago and I have been bone on bone for probably the last 10-12 years.
I probably am going to go ahead with Dr. Dunn's procedure, however there is not enough information out there for ankles (this is a forum for knees).
I did speak to Rob a few of weeks ago and I was encouraged enough to go ahead with Dr. Dunn.
I would be thankful if I could get some feedback from other folks who have been through with Dr. Dunn's treatment or have knowledge of the process. I know it is going to be a long term commitment but then so will every other procedure.
I have done some research on various websites and this seems to be the least invasive, with minimal side effects as well as being relatively reversible if it does not work out.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 31, 2010, 02:22:11 PM
I have been in touch with Dr. Dunn over the last few weeks and have sent him an MRI of my Rt. Ankle which has been diagnosed with severe arthritis.
I would be thankful if I could get some feedback from other folks who have been through with Dr. Dunn's treatment or have knowledge of the process. I know it is going to be a long term commitment but then so will every other procedure.  I have done some research on various websites and this seems to be the least invasive, with minimal side effects as well as being relatively reversible if it does not work out.

I had my left ankle worked on by Dr. Dunn back in August 08.  You can follow my discussions since then through my posts.  Here is what he will probably do:  surgically scrape the dead bone away along with multiple injections of GH over a period of many months.  The first 2 months minimum you will non-weight bearing and afterwards, you will have to be in a walking brace for at least 5 months.  We are talking no weight bearing. 

On the good side, the left ankle is now my good ankle and definitely have to attribute it to the fact that there was no weight bearing for so long.  If you can, go non-weight bearing for as long as possible and emphasize you want more shots than he suggests.  My own personal experience is that cartilage growth is going to be related to more GH over a longer period of time.  Please note however that along with Dunn, I have done other modalities so we cannot put all of the success on Dunn.  As a reference, I was bone on bone also and have 1mm cartilage per the MRI 10 months later.  No idea of the cartilage now but I walk normally and can even run short distances.  I was not able to do either for about 8 years prior.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: asplus on June 02, 2010, 01:53:12 AM
Thanks for your response.
I was surprised to learn that you had only 1 mm after 10 months.
I had the impression that about 3 mm was the goal in this time frame.
You are right, Dr.Dunn will abrade or debride the dead bone and create a receptive surface for the cartilage.
I presume this will also allow the seepage of the stem cells in the bone marrow which will work in conjunction with the HGH to create the cartilage.
On his website he says that this cartilage is not fibrocartilage, and that may be logical, since it is being generated in the area where it is needed and not in some test tube.
Do you have any idea from other sources, how long does this cartilage last??
He does mention booster shots down the road. Should I assume that these are necessary?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 02, 2010, 01:47:16 PM
I had the impression that about 3 mm was the goal in this time frame.
Do you have any idea from other sources, how long does this cartilage last??
He does mention booster shots down the road. Should I assume that these are necessary?

Regarding the thickness, I have never seen literature or personal discussions with Dunn indicating what I should have.  3mm would be nice but I don't think I am that much of an outlier by having only 1mm after 10 months.  Can you share where you think 3 mm would be normal in this timeframe?

It is your own cartilage so it will last as long as it would normally.  There is nothing "fake" about it.

My feeling on the boosters is that people don't take care of the underlying issue of why they have cartilage loss to begin with.  EX:  I had many sprains which weakened the ligaments and allowed the ankle joints to move thus wearing my cartilage prematurely.  Couple that with my Hemochromatosis that was caught only a few years back (high iron causes arthritis) and finally, a genetic tendency to create more MMP-1 in my body.  I will have a lifelong battle with creating more collagen but thankfully I am doing it.  I guess I should have been a doctor.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: asplus on June 03, 2010, 01:53:30 AM
Regarding 3mm cartilage, I took your recommendation and looked at all your posts and your post #12 of this thread on page #1 mentions :

"I can't tell at this time since I started with HGH and went from 0 to over 3 MM cartilage with the HGH"

I researched these posts before I contacted to Dr.Dunn. I have not discussed cartilage thickness with him.
We only had a discussion where apart from the regular information available on his website he mentioned that 8-12 injections may be required and I would have to non-weight bearing for upto 4 months as well as be on brace shoes for an additional 4 months.
I was curious about how does one drive in this situation. It is my right ankle and I can be driven around for 2 to 2 1/2 months, but at some point I will have to be independently mobile. I can use my left leg for brakes, however the gas pedal is just not convenient with the left foot.

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 04, 2010, 01:11:09 AM
Regarding 3mm cartilage, I took your recommendation and looked at all your posts and your post #12 of this thread on page #1 mentions :"I can't tell at this time since I started with HGH and went from 0 to over 3 MM cartilage with the HGH"

I was curious about how does one drive in this situation. It is my right ankle and I can be driven around for 2 to 2 1/2 months, but at some point I will have to be independently mobile. I can use my left leg for brakes, however the gas pedal is just not convenient with the left foot.
Well since I wrote that, I have to say: oops.   When I wrote it, all I had was x-rays.  Since then I did MRI's and it was more obvious where the true cartliage was forming.  The 3mm I thought I had was only a gap and was not indicating cartilage to cartilage contact.

Regarding the brace, you should not have a problem driving.  I do suggest you have it designed in a modern/more compact way.  Dunn's script for mine indicated to use older technology per the prosthesis tech who designed and built it.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Tezzab4 on June 05, 2010, 03:53:56 PM
With the injections of hgh , does it get injected directly into the ligaments and where in the joint does it go?  What I am wondering is if it gets easily dispersed throughout the rest of leg or does it go into the connective tissue etc.  Would it get injected directly into the meniscus?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 07, 2010, 02:15:43 PM
With the injections of hgh , does it get injected directly into the ligaments and where in the joint does it go?  What I am wondering is if it gets easily dispersed throughout the rest of leg or does it go into the connective tissue etc.  Would it get injected directly into the meniscus?

Tez,

Everything we speak about is regarding IA injections not into ligaments or meniscus.  Regarding being dispersed, I don't remember the numbers but the body will take up the majority of the GH from the IA injection within a few hours.  I would assume it goes into surrounding tissues. 

On a similar note, there is no reason why not to do injections directly into the meniscus.  There is a direct correlation between collagen formation and GH availability.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on June 11, 2010, 12:57:44 AM
I asked about and received injections directly into my damaged meniscus on my last visit, 3 months ago to Dr. Speciale in Buffalo, (i get injections from both Dr. Hauser and Dr. speciale), and my knee has been feeling great. Of course that was my 12th series of injections for prolotherapy & prp with some HGH, sodium morriate and testosterone mixed in there, so i'm likely benefiting from the cumulative effect of 18 months of treatment as opposed to just this first injection into my meniscus. Plus I've received 14 injections of ozone treatment into my knee joint too, so it'd be difficult to pinpoint the magic ingredient.

I've kept up the treaments because it keeps on improving. I attend 2 different treatment centers, especially feels good during mountain biking seasons, when my leg muscles are strongest.

It really depends on the degree and severity of your injury. I've received 2 sets of injections on my shoulder, and it feels like new. So obviously my knee was really messed up in comparison to my shoulder. I've said it before, your ligaments and tendons will recover fairly quickly, 3-5 sessions, but the cartilage takes a LONG time, even with PRP and HGH, if you're getting low dosages like me. but it does work, i got the x-rays and mri reports to prove it. I'm a believer that prolo with hgh, and prp will regenerate articular cartilage. just takes time. Irentat has good things to say about the guy in Florida, so there are quicker ways to regrow you cartilage, but for me, given my lifestyle, no way I can afford staying off my feet for extended period of time. So I'll keep up with the prolo.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 11, 2010, 02:09:09 PM
I got the x-rays and mri reports to prove it. I'm a believer that prolo with hgh, and prp will regenerate articular cartilage. just takes time.
gb
GB,
You and I seem to be having the same results if with different modalities and agree on the LONG timeframe for regrowth.  My cartilage regrew to about 1mm in 11 months from nothing (Dunn scraped away the dead tissue before injecting).  I have not had any MRI's since then and it has been 22 months since the start of my journey. 

What is your cartilage thickness now and what was it when you started?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Cstein on June 13, 2010, 09:55:00 AM
So many great contributions to this thread. Thanks everyone.

I too am a CaringMedical prolotherapy patient. Here is my backstory.

March 2009 I had a basketball injury where I hyperextended/twisted my knee and broke an 8mm piece of cartilage from my lateral femoral condyle. I had an OS that I was familiar with after seeing him for patellar tendonitis. I really didn't do much research and I allowed him to perform a chondral graft procedure removing the loose fragment, replacing it with harvested cartilage from the trochlear groove. (July 2009) I was non weight bearing for 3 weeks and off crutches at 6.

1 week after being off crutches I sprained my patellar tendon walking down stairs and was givin napralen(anti-inflammatory) to start physical therapy. I believe I develped chondromalacia with the sprain because the knee began to have a "giving way" feeling that it did not initially have after starting walking. I had tons of quadriceps wasting because with the sprain I really had a lack of confidence going into PT. Did PT for 3 months (thru dec 2009) but had so much scar tissue that my quadriceps never really developed.

By February of 2010 I had developed patellar tendonitis and severe inflammation to the point that I couldn't walk without pain.

I foud a new OS. We began massaging my scar tissue out and got an MRI. The MRI showed a 7mm intra-articular osteophyte and a 1 cm region of moderate chrondromalica on the posterior weight bearing surface. I discussed prolotherapy with my new OS and I decided to see Dr. Hauser for my first injection in April 2010.

I did his metabolic profile and food allergy testing, discovering I am pre-diabetic and had been eating a horrible diet for support of my body's immune system. So far I have recieved 3 prolotherapy injections, 3 weeks apart, each of them consisting of HGH/glucosomine into the joint, plus sodium morhuate and the normal dextrose around the knee.

Before my first injection I was still having trouble walking, but massaging out the scar tissue had begun to give me some fluidity back. My tendonitis/scar tissue was so bad that I couldn't keep my patella tracking properly anywhere beyond 100 degrees on the stationary bike. I also gave up walking up/down stairs normally and instead opting for a very slow 2 legs, 1 stair method.

After my first injections I waited 2 full days before I began using the stationary bike, but I rode everyday for 30 min for 3 weeks up until my 2nd injection. No other excersizing. By the 2nd injection I could ride the bike with full extension and the patellar would track properly. I had gained some relief with walking and the joint seemed like it was stabilizing/getting stronger.

After the 2nd set of injections I tried to get on the bike sooner and this was a bad idea. There was still swelling and I felt sharp pains in the knee. I gave up riding for a week and got back into it slowly, but by my 3rd injections I felt I was still making progress and the knee was feeling more stable. I also started adding straight leg lifts back into my regimen. I tried riding an elliptical but I heard a pop. I am walking very well at this point.

With the 3rd set of injections I must say I got a bit ahead of myself. I decided to go an extra day before I got back on the bike, but was feeling so good that I began riding the outdoor bike. My quadriceps firing is still a bit iffy and when I try to ride standing up there is a severe ache in the joint. Though it does seem to go away after pumping. I was actually feeling so confident after riding standing up that I tried running on bark chips at a local playground. It felt good at the time, but it also resulted in more poping. Gave that and the mountain biking up but I am walking up and down stairs again with no discomfomfort. I also am doing inner-quad leg lifts. I am walking with more fluidity than I have at any point since my surgery. The patella is tracking great, and the joint is feeling loose BUT stable. To disclose all my info, I also smoked pot for a 10 day period after round 3 (quit before starting prolo) and I think this actually inhibited some of my healing. because its an anti-infalmmatory. I know, I know. I stopped again.

I will be getting my 4th set of injections on tuesday and I can't wait. Gonna stay away from running until I can get my quadricep back to normal size and I am gonna wait till I see some progress on MRI. Will prolly get the MRI after my 5th injection. I was recommended 4-7 injections but I am willing to do as many as it takes.

I have completely changed my diet and changed my lifestyle in order to get my knee back and I believe the changes I have made are working. My biggest problem is my impatience and my bad habits. But I remind myself daily of dedication and perseverence.

I will keep everyone updated to my progress.

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 13, 2010, 02:31:27 PM
the joint is feeling loose BUT stable.


Great to hear of other successes.  What is Hauser doing about the loose ligaments?  I hear of IA injections but nothing surrounding the joint to tighten ligaments. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Cstein on June 13, 2010, 06:51:02 PM
the joint is feeling loose BUT stable.


Great to hear of other successes.  What is Hauser doing about the loose ligaments?  I hear of IA injections but nothing surrounding the joint to tighten ligaments. 

I think that's what the dextrose around the joint is working on. With my first two injections I felt alot more stiff and had much more soreness at the tendon/tibia junction. But I also had a dinstinct "tight" bulky feeling. I do alot of hot tub work and that might be loosening it up. I can swing my knee heal to butt without it feeling bulky like it did early on. But I also am concerned about the looseness, if I apply pressure by pivoting my tibia along my front foot planted, keeping the knee still, I get about 1/2-inch of tibia rotation wher my normal knee has almost none. I am going to bring this up with Hauser on my next visit.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on June 13, 2010, 08:23:49 PM
Hi Everybody,

I had my first set of prolo injection on my knee from caringmedical this friday. Knee is bit sore and stiff. I will keep you updated about my progress.
My second set of injection is scheduled on 2nd july. After readimg all the success stories here am quite excited. I hope I will return back to my normal activities.
I have a cartilage damage on my left knee due to sports activity.



Best Regards
Ashok
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on June 25, 2010, 06:21:45 AM
Hi All

I thought that I'd give everyone the link to Dr E. Kon http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19838676
Dr Kon's email address is on the above link. Dr Kon is I think the doctor who started us all getting PRP for our joints

Also in the above extract, her methodology is described as follows

"The procedure consisted of 150-ml of venous blood collected and twice centrifugated: 3 PRP units of 5 ml each were used for the injections. "

One question for everyone, are your physicians been double centrifugated your blood into the PRP? I have emailed Dr Kon to find out the importance of the double centrifugatiion.. As and when I get the answers I'll post them here..

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 25, 2010, 02:19:09 PM
One question for everyone, are your physicians been double centrifugated your blood into the PRP? I have emailed Dr Kon to find out the importance of the double centrifugatiion.. As and when I get the answers I'll post them here..

JM

As a reference, my doc did 30 ml draw with 3 ml of PRP and no double centrifuge.  Make sure you doc pH balances before she reinjects.  PRP is acidic.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mccartjt on June 26, 2010, 06:15:36 PM
Irentat

That is interesting. I've emailed Dr Kon in Italy to ask the importance of double centrifugation. I am awaiting her reply. I will also endeavor to get a full transcript of Dr Kon's work. I don't know if my surgeon ph balanced the PRP prior to being re-injected back into my knee.

I am now coming to an opinion that what is the point of someone doing research and not mimicing its results accurately? That's surely the whole point of research?

JM
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 27, 2010, 04:01:46 PM
Irentat

That is interesting. I've emailed Dr Kon in Italy to ask the importance of double centrifugation. I am awaiting her reply. I will also endeavor to get a full transcript of Dr Kon's work. I don't know if my surgeon ph balanced the PRP prior to being re-injected back into my knee.

I am now coming to an opinion that what is the point of someone doing research and not mimicing its results accurately? That's surely the whole point of research?

JM

I would vote for double centrifuge if my doc did it.  There are a lot of variables in research that the researchers have to control just to keep them at a minimum.  Your doc does not have such restrictions and may do other things to help you.  Ex:  Dr. Dunn, when I was getting GH shots from him, did not want me taking certain supplements or doing any other modality (prolotherapy) as it would modify my results and that was bad for his research.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: sparky52 on July 02, 2010, 12:48:04 AM
I had three PRP treatments from about May 2009-Nov 2009. I had no HGH added in. I got significant decrease in pain and inflammation and stiffness. However in xrays I saw no evidence of cartilage regrowth. I declined to add PRP because I discovered stem cell injections which I am trying at present. Dr. Hauser in Chicago did the prolo and thought that I would need about 6 treatments to get cartilage regrowth. I only did three but remain to be convinced it works, but I hope it does. The stem cells mixed with PRP  seemed to me to cover more bases. I had the stem cell/prp/fat injection (all from my own body) June 18. we will see if that works. Seems to work well in equine medecine.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob wilson on July 02, 2010, 07:17:25 PM
Why didn't Hauser use HGH for your knee cartilage?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: sammie0602 on September 15, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
I had my first injection of PRP yesterday in my right knee.  I have severe end-stage arthritis...bone on bone, have had several rounds of Synvisc and countless cortisone shots, so I am really placing hope in this therapy.  I just turned 40....a lil too young for a knee replacement just yet, plus I don't want to put myself through that if I don't have to.  Did anyone else experience any pain upon injection of the PRP....my doc injected approx 6-10 ccs...didn't really pay that close attention to the syringe.  After the injection I had extreme pain...could not bend my knee...he had to literally bend it for me several times.  It did get worked out as I walked on it in the exam room, but WOW, did it hurt!  Just wondering if anyone else experienced anything similar and if that seems to be in the realm of what is expected.  Also he wants to inject me every week for 3 weeks and I am seeing that the norm seems to be a couple weeks between injections....has anyone else been injected every week.  Oh, I should mention that I am also part of a clinical trial.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: nyknba on September 17, 2010, 01:25:11 AM
Had my first Prolotherapy injection last week.

The pain after the injection was much more intense than I thought. I couldn't walk much for the first 3 days and I could not bend my knee much at all.

The next 3-4 days the initial pain has gone away but I still can't bend fully without pain. 

If prolotherapy is going to work for me, would I have seen some kind of results a week after the first injection or is that way too soon to tell? I'm scheduled for another injection in a couple weeks but I'm not sure if it's working or if I should be able to tell if it's working this soon.

At this point, I'm in more pain than I was before the injection and I know I'm supposed to be in pain because of the inflammation but shouldn't that have worn off and shouldn't I be feeling better by now or no?

Please let me know what you think. Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on September 24, 2010, 08:01:17 PM
Hi All!

Haven't checked in for a while now.  Glad to see some of you are making great progress...and I find myself a bit amused at all the complaints of pain after injections.:)
I'm just a hobbling mess myseld...and would love to get to the gym so I can rebuild some strength.

Anyone here have any other ideas for me?

Thanks for listening... you guys rock!

~C




 



 





Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on September 25, 2010, 03:24:28 AM
Crumpet,

I feel your pain.

Have you considered visiting a second physiotherapist for PRP treatment ? I've received treatment from Hauser in Chicago and Dr. Speciale in Buffalo, and although they both use the Hemdall-Hacket method (i think thats what its called, don't have the book in front of me) their treatments do differ somewhat and I believe I've benefited from seeing both.

does your current physiotherapist even use Hemdall-hacket method ?

You might also consider a new set of MRIs done and visiting a new specialist. you may benefit from a fresh set of eyes.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on September 25, 2010, 01:37:05 PM
sorry,

I meant to write Prolotherapist, not physiotherapist. Hauser is an MD, gotta respect that.  :)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on September 27, 2010, 11:58:46 AM
Crumpet,
Do you know the reason for your underlying issue and have you resolved that yet?  What you are trying is generally successful but sometimes you have to kick it up a bit more in intensity and differing methodologies.  I would suggest an additional option but have no idea of your underlying issue and without that knowledge, I would be hesitant to suggest.

Further, you state you had to tell the doctor to do both ends of the ligament?  Wow, that is a normal procedure.  Further, mechanical manipulation with the needle is just as important as the irritant being injected.  Sounds like you don't have that good of a doc if you have to suggest these things.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: laura_utah on September 28, 2010, 07:01:21 PM
Crumpet,

Irentat has a point about prolo technique.  I wouldn't give up on prolo to treat your ligament until you are sure that your treatments have been performed in a manner that would give maximum benefit.  It's definitely standard protocol to treat both ends of a ligament.  The needle manipulation against bone can result in bleeding of the periosteum (covering over the bone), thereby releasing thrombin and growth factors right where you need them most.  There are both fairly simple concepts and standard procedure - at least for the two prolotherapists who have treated me.

Of course, there are all the variant techniques including PRP and BMAC, but you'd want to following the same procedures for applying those as you would a dextrose solution.

It might be worth reading Ross Hauser's books on prolo if you haven't already.  I haven't yet, but definitely need to.

Best,
Laura
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ivy973 on October 14, 2010, 10:40:56 PM
I had my 2nd prp treatment in my knee this week and I'm very hopeful that my knee will begin improving (currently diagnosed with menisus erosion, small tear and chrondomalacia).  After my first treatment, I did have minor improvement (as evidenced by being able to wear my knee brace less often).  Does anyone know if prp/prolo works if one has underlying structural issues...?  Thanks!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: tatianan on October 20, 2010, 10:12:52 AM
SP7 - I gathered a list of locations that do Prolotherapy in the U.S, researched their websites and called them up. Maybe 2 or 3 had MD that do the injectionss. I chose caringmedical in Chicago, it's MD appears to have the best track record, most experience with Prolotherapy/{R{ injections. Apprently the number of injections per session and placement of the injections is critical to progress.

Prior to choosing PRP treatments or even having heard of it, I saw 2 surgeons, one was the head knee guy for an NHL team, I won't name names,  and the other was the head knee guy for an MLB team. The first doctor recommended an osteotemy ( a big knee procedure cutting into my bone) and the other said my best option was to buy a knee brace and use glucosemin and MSM and just "deal" with my Osteoarthritis. Neither was an option for me as i wanted to continue an active life style.

My understanding is most MD's won't recommend prolotherapy nor PRP injections due to the fact there's nothing for pharmaceuticals to patent and no big money to be made. It's unclear to me if this plays a factor in what surgeons recommend. I'll let you decide.


I am looking for a specialist in Miami, Florida area. Can any one recommend a good MD doctor.
I just had my knee injury, ligament, damaged meniscus, today had a shot in to my knee, it feels better, I know its to soon, only a few hours after the shot. But I am extremely open to PRP treatments, looking forward to a recommendation.
Thank you .
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ivy973 on October 22, 2010, 06:36:14 PM
SP7 - I gathered a list of locations that do Prolotherapy in the U.S, researched their websites and called them up. Maybe 2 or 3 had MD that do the injectionss. I chose caringmedical in Chicago, it's MD appears to have the best track record, most experience with Prolotherapy/{R{ injections. Apprently the number of injections per session and placement of the injections is critical to progress.

Prior to choosing PRP treatments or even having heard of it, I saw 2 surgeons, one was the head knee guy for an NHL team, I won't name names,  and the other was the head knee guy for an MLB team. The first doctor recommended an osteotemy ( a big knee procedure cutting into my bone) and the other said my best option was to buy a knee brace and use glucosemin and MSM and just "deal" with my Osteoarthritis. Neither was an option for me as i wanted to continue an active life style.

My understanding is most MD's won't recommend prolotherapy nor PRP injections due to the fact there's nothing for pharmaceuticals to patent and no big money to be made. It's unclear to me if this plays a factor in what surgeons recommend. I'll let you decide.


I am looking for a specialist in Miami, Florida area. Can any one recommend a good MD doctor.
I just had my knee injury, ligament, damaged meniscus, today had a shot in to my knee, it feels better, I know its to soon, only a few hours after the shot. But I am extremely open to PRP treatments, looking forward to a recommendation.
Thank you .

IN FLORIDA, YOU'RE FORTUNATE:  http://www.dralanlazar.com/
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: men-at-arms on October 26, 2010, 10:28:00 PM
Hi, got a question for the peeps who had PRP injections. I'd like to know whether the plasma is injected directly into the cartilage (in my case I have meniscus trauma in my right knee). I've ever only had hyaluronic acid injections and those are injected directly into the knee cartilage. Is the plasma injected directly under the skin to the knee area ? Much obliged if anyone can clarify AFA how PRP is injected for knee problems. Thanks!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ivy973 on November 06, 2010, 03:41:50 PM
PRP can be injected into the meniscus and even under the kneecap to help with chrondomalacia.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob8647932 on November 06, 2010, 07:18:27 PM
If you go to Dr. Dunn in Miami he will inject HGH. If you go to Dr. Purita in Boca Rotan he might inject PRP + HGH. It just depends on the severity.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: nickh on November 09, 2010, 06:51:51 AM
GB, how is your knee now after the course of PRP and did you try the other one (HGH?)?

I found this board when searching for ways to regrow cartilage. I've had knee trouble since 1999 when I tore my ACL. 
I just had my 3rd operation on my right knee last Thursday to clear out some torn cartilage and cysts that were lurking in my knee joint.  The doc tells me I'd better take it easy or the next step is a knee replacement.
I'm not keen on the knee replacement, but not being able to run around and play sports with my mates is bad enough, while the thought of not being able to even do that with my son as he gets older and interested in sports totally sucks.
I've done some prolotherapy last year and early this year after finding that Chicago clinic online.   I had the Taiwanese version though, as I currently live in Taiwan.  I only had one injection at a time into the knee joint.  I felt great for a couple of days after each ,but then all was back to normal.

I'm very keen on running around again, so I'd like to know how you are going with your knee.  I'll be returning to New Zealand in 2 months, where I'm sure I can find docs who'll do PCP and other ideas.
Cheers
Nick
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on November 10, 2010, 09:17:26 PM
Hey EVERYONE!!!!!:)

Long post alert...sorry, but I guess I need to vent a bit if that is okay.

Thanks so much for those reponses.  Very enlightening discussion. I thought I was going nuts... You guys are pulling me back to reality.  THANKS.



I don't live in an area where there a many of them.  There is one in the next state I'll be seeing now. Hopefully this new Double-ended-peppering-the-bone strategy will work.

Irnetat.... you have piqued my interest.  What do you think I might try?

Its crazy-making.

I have no underlying health issues or hypermobility. I eat a good diet with lots of greens and proteins, avoiding sugar and get lots of lazy sleep.   

If you have multiple injuries, should you get them all treated at the same visit like Dr. Hauser suggests? 

I'm totally game for as many injections as I can get. I love to hear GB's accounts... You know what each shot had in it and THAT is sooo cool.  Sounds like you have thrown the kitchen sink and then some at your wounds. LOL

How do you know if its working?

I hate to think what that is doing to the underside of my patella. EEK.


Trying to put together a plan of action. 


Thanks.... you guys rock.

~ Crumpet












Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on November 23, 2010, 02:11:17 PM


GB, how is your knee now after the course of PRP and did you try the other one (HGH?)?

I found this board when searching for ways to regrow cartilage. I've had knee trouble since 1999 when I tore my ACL. 
I just had my 3rd operation on my right knee last Thursday to clear out some torn cartilage and cysts that were lurking in my knee joint.  The doc tells me I'd better take it easy or the next step is a knee replacement.
I'm not keen on the knee replacement, but not being able to run around and play sports with my mates is bad enough, while the thought of not being able to even do that with my son as he gets older and interested in sports totally sucks.
I've done some prolotherapy last year and early this year after finding that Chicago clinic online.   I had the Taiwanese version though, as I currently live in Taiwan.  I only had one injection at a time into the knee joint.  I felt great for a couple of days after each ,but then all was back to normal.

I'm very keen on running around again, so I'd like to know how you are going with your knee.  I'll be returning to New Zealand in 2 months, where I'm sure I can find docs who'll do PCP and other ideas.
Cheers
Nick


Nick,

Prolo with and without PRP has served me very well. I've cured my lower back and shoulder of a lot of pain using the Hemdall Hacket treatment method. However, when it came to my knee, it did about half the job. It stabilized the joint and strengthened the knee ligaments, but wasn't as affective in regenerating cartilage.

So I looked into Regenexx, spoke with a few on this forum to get their insights and experience with Regenexx, and decided to give it a try.Via MRI, my MD was able to point out that my lateral meniscus, or what's left of it after meniscectomy, was squeezed outside of the joint leaving me bone on bone at the lateral posterial horn of the right knee joint. So no amount of Prolo was going to help and they need to first correct the misplacement of the meniscus before injecting stem cells to regenerate the articular cartilage.

 The clinics suggestion, as a first step, was to correct the misalignment of the meniscus that was squeezed out of position. They inserted a fat graph (which contains adipose stem cells) into the corner of the joint, to hold the meniscus in its proper place and provide cushion between the femur and tibia. I watched the procedure using ultra sound. it was amazing watching on screen, just by positioning my knee a certain angle while laying sideways on my side, the joint opened and I watched the meniscus get sucked back into proper position. then the MD injected the fat graph mixed with their own concoction of PRP (supposedly 3x more powerful than bedside PRP) to hold the meniscus in place. I'm now fitted with a lateral unloader for 6 weeks while it heals.

So my condition is somewhat unique and required a more complicated solution than what regular prolo could provide.

My next visit they will do the marrow draw for the Mesenchymal stem cells for regenerating the articular cartilage.

what's frustrating to me is that no MD ever pointed out this meniscus problem before after analyzing my MRI. My regenexx did find it. doc likes to refer to it as the "money shot" and I got a printout of it, that shows my damaged meniscus sqeezed out of the joint.

Anyways, time will tell if this hypothetical works. I'll have the ultra sound in 5 weeks that will show if this fat graph procedure was a success.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 07, 2010, 12:54:38 AM
A simple Google search for prolotherapy led me to this site and a thread started by GB. In reading your initial post and seeing the parallels to my injury profile (except that I am 46 yrs old and I only damaged my ACL and lateral meniscus) I decided to jump in. Just registered a few minutes ago and have to run as we are starting our softball playoffs tonight, so this will be a short post with more later.

I met a doctor who specilalizes in longevity medicine and practices a blend of traditional medicine and alternative medicine treatments. He was reccommended by many of my wife's coworkers at Whole Foods. He has been a revelation as I had NEVER EVEN HEARD of prolotherapy and PRP injections. He recommended this rather than going for microfracture surgery right away as my left knee has gotten progressively worse over the years. I have never gone more than 1 week without some sort of pain and discomfort, but have just managed the pain. None of the trad. OSs had ever told me about the alternatives.

I am scheduled for my first prolo shot on 12/17 and have many questions, but I am on a high feeling that there is some hope after approximately 28 years of traditional doctors and orthopedic specialists telling me just to manage the pain and look forward to a knee replacement sometime after I reach 60.

More later......

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 07, 2010, 12:52:23 PM
I am scheduled for my first prolo shot on 12/17 and have many questions, but I am on a high feeling that there is some hope after approximately 28 years of traditional doctors and orthopedic specialists telling me just to manage the pain and look forward to a knee replacement within the next several years.
More later......
I am excited for you!  Read this thread completely and you will have a starting point from everyone's input.  Plenty of very knowledgeable people on this board.  If you are aggressive in your treatment, you can easily be back to normal.  Your condition is not nearly as bad as mine or others and improvement with different modalities has been phenomenal.   

Trust yourself in knowing joints can be repaired, it just takes longer.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 08, 2010, 03:27:33 PM
Hiya Everyone:

Its been a bit of a roller coaster these last couple of weeks.


So...how do you guys not be hopeless about stuff like this? I'm dying here.

~Crumpet
 




Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 08, 2010, 03:47:41 PM
Crumpet,

Note these things when thinking about your situation:

1. You have barely started your recovery. 
2. You have tried only a few doctors and only a few modalities.
3. You have cartilage and that is very important.
4. Don't worry about "arthritis" right now.

I still have doctors telling me that I need ankle replacement or fusion.  You want to see "arthritis", look at my MRI's! This is after documented cartilage growth from 0 and pain reduction from severly torn ligaments.  After years of research and developing a protocol that works, I am walking straight with no limp for miles and doing everything I need to in life, minus running.  I will run someday but that may be years away...I can wait.

What you should take away is that there are many routes and many years to go.  Some things/people work and some don't.   Personally I took a similar route you did and still will continue but was able to accelerate recovery by doing additional things myself.  Not saying to do it all yourself but research and careful experimentation is important and should be ongoing by you all the time.

And, for God's sake, go have a date!


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 09, 2010, 12:40:46 AM
I am scheduled for my first prolo shot on 12/17 and have many questions, but I am on a high feeling that there is some hope after approximately 28 years of traditional doctors and orthopedic specialists telling me just to manage the pain and look forward to a knee replacement within the next several years.
More later......
I am excited for you!  Read this thread completely and you will have a starting point from everyone's input.  Plenty of very knowledgeable people on this board.  If you are aggressive in your treatment, you can easily be back to normal.  Your condition is not nearly as bad as mine or others and improvement with different modalities has been phenomenal.    irentat

Thanks for your support and encouragement irentat. Here is my story. I hope that I do not bore anyone. I used to be a promising athlete in HS. I was projected to participate in collegiate track and football. In 1982 when I was a senior in HS, I was playing football when I ruptured the ACL and tore lateral menicus in my left knee. Arthoscopy not available. Dr. Lidoff gave me a nice 7-inch zipper scar, menisectomy and they "sutured" my ligament back together, or so he said. Knee was a complete mess for about couple of years. Loose as a politician's campaign promises. Lots of crunching and floaties, locking up, dislocating of the joint on activity. I kept at the weights and cycling until eventually, the knee somewhat stabilized. I also had to adjust my gait and curb my activities somewhat. I was still very active athletically, but the knee was never the same.

Scope and clean in 1984.

In 1995 started getting some swelling and discomfort so I had an MRI which revealed that I did not have an ACL in my left knee (disintegrated?), but I had somehow had build the muscle up enough to compensate. Had a patellar tendon graft performed to replace the ACL with good initial results, but still not as solid as the right because of the missing meniscus. Over the next 15 years the knee has been satisfactory, living with the periodic pain, swelling and discomfort, usually  a couple of days every week after running, basketball, or some other physical activity.

Past 3-4 years the knee and my physical abilities have declined due to my business and family life curbing my activities and, well, just getting older I guess. Rather than accept my "destiny" which most of the OSs have told me was a knee replacement, I was looking into microfracture surgery when I found out about prolotherapy and PRP injection therapy! I am thrilled that there is an option to surgery and I keep waiting to wake up and be told that I have been dreaming. For most of the last 3 decades, I have been hoping and searching for advances in treatment that could help me. My knee injury in HS had been devestating to me emotionally and psychologically. I have always felt like a big part of me got left behind after the first knee surgery and that I had never reached my full potential as an athlete. I realize I will never be able to wind back the clock, but at least now I have some hope that I can still keep physically active without experiencing this nagging pain and discomfort in my knee (which has also affected my hip and back) and possibly avoid a knee replacement.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this forum. The stories I have read so far have given me hope. I hope to become a regular poster........and maybe an an inspiration to someone else who felt like they had to accept what the traditional orthopedic surgeons told us was the only way to fix our bad knees.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 09, 2010, 05:33:21 AM
Hey Irentat:

Thanks so much for your encouraging words.  I know that I'll check in just to read that over and over. I could hug you  ;)

I'm a wreck.

I just returned from my MD's office who ran the X-ray.

So sweet... you want me to go on a date. That's cute...:)

I think the poor guy would need a therapist after spending time with me right now.

Thanks again...

~crumpet












Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 09, 2010, 01:28:07 PM
Crumpet,

You are obviously worried because you have pain.  work on those ligaments and that should reduce the pain.   Yes many different methods and IA injection types will increase joint space and we have covered many of them in this thread alone:  HGH, dextrose, PRP, testosterone, ozone and stem cells have all be touched upon.  I have done all but the last two and personally the best results were from testosterone but you use each modality at different stages so be aware of that. 

If you could see my MRI's you would feel thankful.  I went from not being able to walk at all to 2 years later walking many miles and no limp or pain.  Working on the ligaments will do wonders to take away pain and eliminate more space narrowing because it will track better.  It may ultimately require surgery to clean out the joint, so be it.  Get aggressive.  If doc says be back in 4 weeks for the next ligament shots, ask for 3 but then ask to come in the next week for more IA injections.  Speed it up.  Doing this for myself was part of what put my healing into overdrive.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 09, 2010, 06:06:36 PM
irenetat:

I can't thank you enough for responding to my crazed posts.:)


Thanks...so much for discussing this with me... It means more than you know.

~crumpet
 

 



Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 10, 2010, 05:53:19 AM
Hey Crumpet,  I did not mean to sound so dramatic about my knee injury. I have mostly accepted situation. After 28 years, I would hope so right? It really helped me in a way, since I was probably on my way to being a dumb jock, so the injury really made me focus on developing myself intellectually and spiritually. Yes, there is still a part of me that wonders what might have been, but I am content for the most part.

Couple of questions for the forum:

1. In researching and reading up on prolotherapy (including everyone's testimonies here) it sounds like this treatment will most likely not be effective in regenerating my cartilage. Should I just concede this and start planning on "uping the ante" and looking into PRP and the other more advanced treatments?

2. The doc that I am entrusting to do the procedure has already told me that he likes to do less injections duringthe treatments and tries to focus the injections on the affected area rather than the shot gun method I saw on the video from GB's doc. Should this concern me?


Any feedback is most appreciated.

Tom
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 11, 2010, 05:46:22 PM
Hey all:
 hope everyone is hanging in there okay...

~crumpet
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 15, 2010, 06:04:20 AM
Wow. Dead thread. Bump.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 17, 2010, 09:00:57 PM
Hi there!

Well... Tom... I guess I drove everyone away.  ???

Interesting article I found.

http://www.beckersorthopedicandspine.com/sports-medicine/2646-Study%20Finds%20Collagen-Producing%20Cells%20Heal%20Patients%20Faster%20Than%20Only%20Plasma%20for%20Tendinopathy

~Crumpet
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 17, 2010, 11:29:05 PM
Hi there!

Well... Tom... I guess I drove everyone away.  ???

Interesting article I found.

http://www.beckersorthopedicandspine.com/sports-medicine/2646-Study%20Finds%20Collagen-Producing%20Cells%20Heal%20Patients%20Faster%20Than%20Only%20Plasma%20for%20Tendinopathy

~Crumpet


I think your handle just made everyone hungry. Blueberry crumpets with peanut butter and honey. Yum!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 17, 2010, 11:54:24 PM
By the by, just got my 1st prolo injection today via Dr. Steven Tenenbaum out of Newbury Park, CA. He is a GP, but specilaizes in alternative therapies. Combo of Dextrose, Glucosamine, little lidocaine....I think that was it, pretty standard. He chosse a localized method, injected the solution directly into cartilage defect area rather than several generalized injections (which he said he might do later if warranted. At +4 hrs. post injection. Got a bit of a headache, and the knee feel slightly tight with a very slight, dull ache at the injection site (which is already an improvement!) No exercise until Sunday. Found out that the doc himself gets injections as he has a slight defect to his left knee. Really hopeful at this point. Will continue posting if anything happens that is noteworthy.

Merry Christmas, Qwanza to anyone celebrating. Happy Belated Chanukah.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 18, 2010, 06:40:21 PM
Heya Tom:

...Directly into the cartilage?  Wow...  I have reserached this idea and can't seem to find anything definative either way. So much of this is confusing... LOL

Did your doc use ultrasound to shoot exact defect area? Did he "pepper" it? Was this your meniscus or your articular cartilage? Did he then FILL the joint space with solution?

My Doc says that prp works good for cartilage repair, yet I have seem comments about standard prolo working too... I wonder what the ranking effectiveness is for the various injectables and techniqes.

Does standard prolo stabbage generate mesenchymal cells...which are supposed workhorses of the needed fix?

I want to now get mri on my left knee with the arthritis to get better idea on what exactly is going on in there. Did you get an MRI to tell you how yours was?

Re: headache.  Yup!  Always get high from the procaine and then get a hangover type headache afterwards.

Good luck with that... can't wait to hear more of your progress Tom!

~crumpet

 

 

 

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 19, 2010, 03:40:14 AM
I think he just injected into the space, not actually in the meniscus itself. No peppering. We discussed all of the "supercharging" ingredients (PRP, HGH, testosterone (as an adjunct), etc.) His philosophy is to go with the lowest impact first and ramp it up if we don't get the desired results. Yes, he uses ultrasound to help locate the target.

Though I got off easy at + 4 hrs. as I did not have much discomfort, but as the evening wore on my knee got real puffy, could not really flex it more than 3/4 or else pressure, pain and some crepitus. 2 advil and sleep. In the morning there was a little swelling, but no pain. I was tempted to go running, but common sense prevails. The pain I had from going up and down stairs is all but gone. I plan on a short workout at the gym tomorrow, will try about 30 mins on the recomb. bike.

Questions. Probably should have waited, but I had a deep tissue massage scheduled so I went ahead with it today. Did not invovle my knee persay, just calf and thigh followed up by 30 mins in the dry sauna. Should not be detrimental should it? My doc said that I just should not "stress" the joint for 2 days. Still feel good right now. Cheers everyone.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 19, 2010, 07:00:54 PM
Tom:

Advil is BAD for prolo.  It counters it. Try tylenol instead.

~crumpet
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 19, 2010, 10:09:06 PM
Tom:

Advil is BAD for prolo.  It counters it. Try tylenol instead.

~crumpet

Whoops, i do remember the doc mentioning that now, but he did not stress it. Well, only took it once. Anyhow, the knee feels pretty darn good today. I am able to go up and down the stairs without any discomfort really.  I am wondering if this is more of an effect of the glucosimine because I cannot believe that the irritant creates a benefit this quickly. Can someone please comment?

I am very excited, but will reserve judgement for about a week. If I am able to walk and move this way consistently without pain I think that this will be the start of something great. Now that the pain in my knee has been minimized I can really feel the discomfort in my left hip more (caused by 28 years of walking with a slight limp). If these prolo shot are truly this effective  I would think they would be great for my hip, right ankle and maybe my shoulders now since they have recently become chronically painful.

Crumpet, thank you for your feedback and encouragement.


Tom
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on December 20, 2010, 12:13:57 AM
Tom:

Hey...there. I could make a guess about your result... ::)

Okay... I'm no whiz, just wanted to get some info from ya, just to flush out a few things if you don't mind.:)

You say you had an ACL/meniscus injury...

So...is your ACL been made stable and meniscus repaired....before now? In the way-back times 1999 or so...those kind of surgeries were not anywhere mastered as they are today...  So, did you have maybe a lax ACL post surgery and a not so healed meniscus? 

Is that how you would describe it?

Have your recent studies shown "space" missing from your joint?

Have you been limping because of pain (like bone pain), or sloppy joint or catching (from crunkled meniscus)?

Love your attitude!

~Crumpet






Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 21, 2010, 12:16:53 AM
Just me and you Crumpet. Guess everyone else got bored.

The limp is really from both over the years and just not being a good patient. Back in high school it was both (1982). The docs did not fix the ACL properly and the torn meniscus caused me quite a bit a pain with activity. The docs told me to become a workout warrior, just no sports that required "cutting" and lateral movement. I was never good at doing that because I love competitive sports so I just built up the leg muscles to the point where I could still play basketball and football, but I had 2-3 dislocations and seemed I lived with an icebag on my knee. This was until 1995 when I had an ACL graft from my patellar tendon "installed". The meniscus was never really properly repaired though.

No recent studies on the knee. Seeing how you are from the States, I am sure you know how bad our health insurance and healthcare system is. I am sure there is some space deficit there, but the doctors have not given me much hope until I met Dr. Tenenbaum.

Last night: 30 mins on the recomb. bike, and 3 sets each on the leg ext+leg curls+squat machine all iso on left knee with 50 lbs., no ice, no Advil (thanks Crumpies :)) Woke up this morning with a "dead" leg in a good way, just muscle fatigue. Must note that the pain in the meniscus was still noticeable when I started the workout and with the squats and leg curls, but it was different this time. It was actually very similar to the pain I felt when the docs would remove the cast from my leg and I got to work it out in therapy for the first time, more of a soreness that I could work through. Took 2 TYLENOL today, but there really isn't any increase in the swelling from yesterday or what I would normally expect from a workout like that. Not perfect, but seems like a noticable improvement.

Did also notice some minor popping and clicking I did not notice before, but it was probably from the swelling from the injections.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 21, 2010, 03:21:15 AM
I am wondering if this is more of an effect of the glucosimine because I cannot believe that the irritant creates a benefit this quickly. Can someone please comment?

Tom,

You could just be a quick healer or the real pain areas were an easy fix via prolo.   It took me many months of injections to get over my constant sprain feeling I would get.  Just keep going with it and see what happens.  Just remember it will take many months/years to rebuild so don't think it is overnight.


Yeah, I am reading also...
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 21, 2010, 06:28:19 AM
Thanks Irentat. Actually, the knee has seemed to regress a little later in the day, some extra grinding.  I sit most of the time at my job, so maybe the lack of activity made it feel a little stiff. Are most of the benefits of the prolo felt in the immediate days following the injection or after several days? Or does it just depend on the person?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 22, 2010, 01:28:22 AM
I am wondering if this is more of an effect of the glucosimine because I cannot believe that the irritant creates a benefit this quickly. Can someone please comment?

Tom,

You could just be a quick healer or the real pain areas were an easy fix via prolo.   It took me many months of injections to get over my constant sprain feeling I would get.  Just keep going with it and see what happens.  Just remember it will take many months/years to rebuild so don't think it is overnight.


Yeah, I am reading also...

I am in this for the long term of course. I am going back tomorrow for my left shoulder and/or left hip, if the doc will accommodate me. Thanks to you and Crumpets for keeping me on the path.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 22, 2010, 11:34:16 PM
Went back today and had my L shoulder and L hip done. Sore. The doc said I am pushing too hard on the workouts for my knee and need to scale back a bit. No more squats and knee extensions for a while. I need to let the surface areas rebuild a bit and the full process takes several weeks post injection. Need to be a good patient and take it easy now. No problem, I am good at being lazy when I have to be. ;D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 23, 2010, 03:44:24 PM
I have probably had 20 joints done on my body total...of course my ankles have gotten most of the attention.  I noticed that joint that had only a small amount of pain recovered very quickly from prolo and only needed a few therapies. 

You may be pushing too hard on the knee.  I would do as he says and just keep going to the treatments.  Could take many months to see something significant.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 23, 2010, 06:02:22 PM
All part of the process right? I am definitely going to take it easier now. Wow, my hip and shoulder were really stiff and sore last night, but it was manageable. Did not take any pain relievers, just rest. It was weird, but even my knee swelled up again. Maybe just part of the overall response of my body reacting to the injections. Not so bad today. I will go back in 4 weeks to get the second round and possibly have my R ankle treated.

Have a great holiday everyone.

Tom
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on December 23, 2010, 06:14:11 PM
It was weird, but even my knee swelled up again. Maybe just part of the overall response of my body reacting to the injections. Not so bad today. I will go back in 4 weeks to get the second round and possibly have my R ankle treated.

Tom, 
A reaction in another joint not treated is very normal.  Happens to me with every prolo visit.  You are going slow and you will do fine.  A funny story about doing too much prolo though was I was going in every week for a month to just get all these different joints done.  At the end of that month, I felt like crap!  It was just too much too fast.  The joints did well with the prolo but I would not do it so close together again.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on December 24, 2010, 09:20:46 PM
GTK. I thought that was the case. Merry Christmas everyone. ;D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on December 28, 2010, 03:16:48 PM
GB, How is your knee doing ? Please post your progress with Regenexx. Thanks

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on January 04, 2011, 03:19:35 AM
ashok_guru

here's an update on my fat graph.

Regenexx posted my fat graph procedure results to their website. I guess they were happy with the results and decided to share with the world :)

the pic is of an ultrasound snapshot of my knee with commentary, 1 month after the fat graph injection. just follow the link below. that's my knee!

http://www.regenexx.com/2010/12/regenexx-ad-fat-graft-survival/

so far, the integrity of the graph is intact and holding the meniscus in its proper place. ~ roughly 40% of lateral meniscus is all thats left and had spit itself outside the knee joint leaving me bone on bone. Apparently its a common problem with patients who've had a menisectomy.  this procedure has fixed it providing me with the cushion between the tibia and femur.

the stiffness in my lateral joint is GONE. can hardly believe it. but its only been a 2 months, we'll see if it holds up.

too early to tell if the MSC injections (i had this procedure 1 month after the fat graft procedure) have regenerated cartilage. i'm not allowed MRI on the knee for at least 6 months following the last injection. MRI's are bad for the stem cells. so difficult to tell at this point.

gb
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on January 06, 2011, 12:58:24 AM
ashok_guru

here's an update on my fat graph.

Regenexx posted my fat graph procedure results to their website. I guess they were happy with the results and decided to share with the world :)

the pic is of an ultrasound snapshot of my knee with commentary, 1 month after the fat graph injection. just follow the link below. that's my knee!

http://www.regenexx.com/2010/12/regenexx-ad-fat-graft-survival/

so far, the integrity of the graph is intact and holding the meniscus in its proper place. ~ roughly 40% of lateral meniscus is all thats left and had spit itself outside the knee joint leaving me bone on bone. Apparently its a common problem with patients who've had a menisectomy.  this procedure has fixed it providing me with the cushion between the tibia and femur.

the stiffness in my lateral joint is GONE. can hardly believe it. but its only been a 2 months, we'll see if it holds up.

too early to tell if the MSC injections (i had this procedure 1 month after the fat graft procedure) have regenerated cartilage. i'm not allowed MRI on the knee for at least 6 months following the last injection. MRI's are bad for the stem cells. so difficult to tell at this point.

gb

GB, just fascinating! Back in 1982, about 1 yr. after my first failed ACL/menisectomy, I noticed a pea sized floater rolling around under the skin on the lateral side of my left knee. I could literally move it down to the top of my calf muscle or up into a groove near my quad. It had to be a piece of that "spit out" meniscus. I finally had it cleaned out, but to this day, there is still a little nub of tissue I can feel sticking out of the joint space on the lateral side of the knee. I can also push it back into the joint space. Does not hurt, just kind of feels weird.

So what happens to the fat cells? Do they actually become more cartilage like over time and fuse with the existing meniscus and bone? I will research it, read the website, etc. It is just very valuable and interesting to hear things directly from you GB.

My prolotherapy has gone very well for my knee so far, mixed bag for the other joints. I would say that my knee improved about 20%. Pain free going up and down the stairs. I have not pushed it hard yet as the doc said the regenerative effects continue for several weeks after the injections. My hip is absolutely pain free and the doctor said that there is no sign of arthritis in the joint so that was good. My left shoulder only seems to have improved about 10%. Still some laxity, popping and intermittent, moderate "toothache" type pain, esp. when I do my ROM exercises. He thinks I may have a slight tear in my rotator cuff. My right ankle was just done on New Year's Eve. It almost feels worse and has really restricted my lower body exercises to swimming, although I may try out the gym tonight. I am going back for Rd.2 for my knee on Jan. 21st.

Ciao. Best wishes for everyone.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Kelticon on January 10, 2011, 11:30:33 PM

GB your progress has been very eye opening for me as I seek for some treatment for my articular cartilage damage on both knees.
It happend the same time, it hurts the same and they have the same pain-progression and cartilage degenaration.
I'm an athlete in Judo (before I was in olympic weightlifting for 15 years but I gave up because it was literally killing my cartilage)

In judo I never had problems with my cartilage but after 5 years in this sport I AM HAVING PROBLEMS. It's deteriorating every single day.
I do stretching exercises, isometric exercises and ice afterwards with glucosamine/chondroitin pill. IT HURTS ! I have reached a point where it hurts when I just walk.
I did an x-ray on both knees and it does not show any stenosis (bone to bone) in 5 days I will perform an MRI on both knees to see if the cartilage is still there.
Please tell me, based on your experience, what is the best method for cartilage regeneration no matter how much time it takes. I don't want to do the knee replacement on both knees. If I do this I will lose any opportunity for the new cartilage regereration techniques that will do the job at 100%.
Hope my knee still lasts for this moment.
So, what's the best method for you now ?! Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on January 12, 2011, 08:01:00 PM
Gb:

So what is the overall strategy?  They are fastening what is left of your meniscus into place with the fat graft...then they are hitting you with the stem cells to help regrow the missing meniscus and the missing articular cartilage that is supposed to coat the bone?

You say there is less lateral pain.  What would you say is responsible for that? The reseating of the meniscus or the implantation of the stem cells....or both?

What is the next step?

Good work....

~Crumpet


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on January 12, 2011, 08:32:11 PM
Suffered a significant setback with the treatment on my right ankle. I waited 3 days post injection to begin any workout and started off by power-walking and some light jogging, really light, basically while walking the dog. The next evening, I went swimming and did some kicking and cycling type exercises in the water, no discomfort to speak of. The next morning, the medial side of the ankle swelled up. Over the last several days their has been more swelling and some bruising and tenderness on the medial side of the joint, indicative of a sprain. It is just so odd because the activity did not warrant a sprain and I did not feel any pain that would be associated with a sprain. Anyone have any ideas?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Kelticon on January 15, 2011, 05:42:54 PM
if it's a tissue then you don't have to worry. It will pass. If it's catilage then you are finished ! There is no cure yet. Just some extremely expensice injections that don't do a thing on "RE-GENERATING" articular cartilage.


You can sacrifice the whole knee if you like to put a fake one that will ast 15 years. I can't beleive in 2011 we talk about some techniques from 1970.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on January 16, 2011, 08:20:11 PM
Mcirish:

Wow... sorry to hear of your setback.

I'm actually pretty amazed at your level of activity following your shots.  My understanding is it takes three weeks for the "wrecking crew" to make room for collagen regrowth...so any activity soon after injection would be ill advised.

I'm no expert, but my guess is you should scale it back a bit for now.:)

By the way.... I also had my ankle injected and can tell you that it takes a super LONG time to heal...  I guess maybe because ankles/feet are so far from the heart and they bear so much weight.

Hoping it gets better soon!!!!

~crumpet

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mcirish on January 20, 2011, 08:52:38 PM
Thanks Crumpet. I guess my mind and spirit are willing, but my flesh is weak? Something like that. I am starting to think that my doc is a little lacking in experience with the prolotherapy, he simply tells me I can return to normal activity 2-3 days after the injections. A few days after the injections, I always start feeling better and I go out and start cutting loose with the workouts. At least that was the previous pattern. I am starting to scale back. The ankle setback really gave me pause and I have been babying it for the last week and it is s-l-o-w-l-y getting back to normal, but still not 100%. I have a theory that the proliferant not only irritates the tissue, but in a way "reinjures" it to a certain degree, maybe softening the tissue at first before the thickening and tightening occurs.This might explain how the ankle was so easily injured. That had never happened to me before and the ease with which the joint was traumatized really freaked me out.

Just had the second set of injections done on my L knee and L shoulder. The knee seems to be coming along great, the joint is starting to feel tighter. Still some clicks, pops and grinding on occassion, but really no pain to speak of going up and down stairs. The shoulder is finally showing some signs of improvement, but I think it will be some time before I can get back to bench pressing and shoulder workouts.

I am going back to the gym tonight, but i will probably do a light 30 minute session on the recomb bike.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on January 23, 2011, 02:09:18 PM
Mcirish,

I would not worry so much about your ankle.  I too have done injections there and had it take over a week to recover with serious swelling of the anterior portion.   Just keep going and doing.   You will be fine.  After a while you just accept it ( or I did) as a part of the protocol and recovery.

Crumpet,

You REALLY need to know what is going on with your body overall.   You have serious joint issues like I used to have.  Once I figured out the issues, I started to resolve them.  For me, I had a genetic predisposition towards breaking down my overall body collagen faster than I could rebuild it.    Find that underlying issue and resolve it.  It will put you to the next level in recovery.  Further, don't be afraid of looking towards unique solutions.  Granted what we all are doing is unique but there is even more you can do.  Just have to keep researching.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on January 25, 2011, 04:42:25 AM
irentat:

Hey man...did you know about the genetic collagen issue before all that happened?  That is so wild...  I met a lady who had something called ellers danlos or something like that.  She said she had to go in for operations all the time to get put back together.  Sounded positively dreadful.

I'm lucky that I don't have that... but my injuries would make one think I do. So many... I KNOW.  ::)

My new prolo guy is much more with it than the last.. I'm also thinking about those stem cells.  The stem cell site says the bone cells are really good for lax ACLs.  I wish there were testimonials for that. Its a pretty expensive trip and I'd hate to waste the time and money.

I called the place...but JANE...was tight so lipped. Said everything was top secret unless I send my MRI's and $200 bucks.  >:(

My ankle has that long ligament on the side yaknow...and it thwacks about...  Did yours do that?  Did yours get fixed? Did it need to be pinned back down at some anchor point or something?

By the way... Tom..MaC  Keep up the good work... Sound like a lot of fun on that bike.:)

~crumpet 

 



 

 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Kelticon on January 27, 2011, 12:15:36 PM
I got a full diagnosis form the best doctor ever !

He saw my MRI and said that I had no cartilage defects. ( Just little GRADE 1 LESSIONS)

It happend just because I had the anterior cruciate ligament torn !!! Small tears.
If this ligament is more damaged it can destroy literally the whole knee, muniscus, articular cartilage and so on.

After 10 years of wrong diagnosis I finally got my answer. IT WAS NOT THE ARTICULAR CARTILAGE !!!! My cartilage was GRADE 0 (healthy cartilage) and it became Grade 1 just because the anterior cruciate ligament was getting more damaged.

So I had to focus my concentration on anterior cruciate ligament  and not articular cartilage. All this money and research for wrong diagnosis gets me real mad.

Thanks to this doctor I can focus to this problem now and at least I know what is cause the cartilage to deterioration. It'snot by itself but because the anterior cruciate ligament is damaged.

Now, since it's not chondral problem anymore, could someone tell me if the PRP heals more effectively the anterior cruciate ligament  ? ACL ?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on February 02, 2011, 04:12:30 AM
10 years to get the proper diagnosis.  Wow...sorry. That's really, really awful.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: sgegbg on February 02, 2011, 04:30:26 PM
Does anyone have any knowledge of a good doc in Houston doing PRP?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: capoeirista on February 15, 2011, 02:19:03 AM
Hi Everyone,

Phew! Just got through the thread. Very informative!

Thank you all.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I am on the Ehlers-Danlos spectrum, and come from a long line of contortionists. For most of my life, it was a super-power.

Four years ago, I was pregnant, which produces a lot of this great stuff called 'relaxin', which makes your ligaments stretchy. My feet turned to jello, and I couldn't walk at all. Ankles and knees became damaged. I did a lot of research, and looked at the outcomes for the way conventional medicine treats the condition and really didn't like what I saw.

Outcomes like your friend who has the constant grafts are, unfortunately, very common. The process is medieval and really misguided IMHO. They graft your own ligaments into your ankles and knees (or wherever). Because they're the same ligaments that are already stretchy, the grafts don't last long, and I read somewhere that it's usually about six months. My body doesn't have enough ligaments to feed that beast. People with Ehlers-Danlos who go the traditional medical route develop arthritis early, and because they need to keep pretty sedentary, aren't very healthy. I'd already been sedentary after having a previously very athletic life, and I hated it.

It's a weird thing. My feet would be crushed by my blanket while I slept. I had to manually put my feet under my shin bones to get them under my body so I could scuffle across the room, otherwise they'd flop. It was complicated because during my pregnancy, I was pretty immobile - I was working at my laptop curled up on the couch, and if I wasn't working, I was sleeping. I think if I had remained active I wouldn't have developed such a terrible state.

People with this condition that's this severe are too rare for there to be any specialists in the medical community where I was  and it just seems that the current treatments in the canon produce sucky outcomes. From what I understand there's one doctor in Chicago with the condition, and he's booked up for two years.

But there was another community that had generations of experience and an accumulation of knowledge, the contortionists. If the same condition is athleticized, then the outcomes appear to be really positive. If they focused on strength training to protect and support their joints, people lived long lives and rarely got arthritis. It was a no-brainer to aim in this direction, and I decided to avoid the grafting and the general medical profession, even if walking was terrifyingly hard. If getting stronger didn't work out, I could always go under the knife later.

I decided to resolve things from the bottom up, starting with rebuilding my arches. It's been continual improvement. I'm light-years from where I started four years ago. Writing this reminds me how far I've come. When I started this post I was focused on how far I still have to go. It's good to remind myself. I'm a pretty active person now.

I can walk a long ways now. It still hurts, with the nasty tendons, but there was a time not that long ago when I couldn't do half a block. I can do stairs now forward, where six months ago I was still going up sideways one stair at a time like my ninety year old grandmother did. Yes, my knees hurt all the time. I still can't bicycle up hills or run, but I hope to soon.

My current state is that I have both knees with patellar tendinosis. They're painful all the time. I've been doing eccentric exercises with them to straighten out the fibers, and that appears to be helping. I have chondromalacia that's only gotten worse from when I ran cross country in high school and it felt like steel spikes were being driven up under my kneecaps, but these days the pain is mostly from the patellar tendons.

Does a sensible strategy sound like prolotherapy to stabilize the ligaments and knees and PRP for the tendinosis? Once those things are resolved - maybe in a year or so - see about what's available to take care of the cartilage damage under my patella?

Does anyone know any good prolo doctors in the Los Angeles area, and how much it costs? Same for PRP.

irentat - it sounds like you've figured out something about keeping your collagen ahead of the losses. How do you do it? How did you find out?

Thank you all for reading. I've never written the story out in one narrative before and it's been very valuable for me to do it. It doesn't feel like it's a very long distance back to normal anymore. I'd love your advice.



 
 ;D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob wilson on February 15, 2011, 10:19:36 PM
http://www.jointrehab.com/

How about Dr. Darrow in LA. I don't know much about him though. The prolo, PRP combo are good for tendons and ligaments. The bone marrow stem cells / HGH / PRP combo are good for bone cartilage (arthritis).
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: capoeirista on February 16, 2011, 12:58:45 AM
Will give him a call, thanks!

What's the average cost for prolotherapy and PRP these days? I have no idea what's expensive and what isn't.

Thank you everyone again. I've gotten so much hope from this thread!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: men-at-arms on February 26, 2011, 12:23:10 AM
I had trouble bot descending and ascending stairs. After 2 injections to both knee, I am now doing both pain free and without hand rails. PRP treatment works. I don't know if the regeneration is enough to avoid TKR, but this buys time for some high tech to come along AFA joint regeneration on permanent basis.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: BackToStart on March 16, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
First I want to thank all of you guys, especially GB,irentat,mcirish, & crumpet, who've constantly included your ways and reports of Prolo and PRP injections. I have been following this thread specifically, for over 8 months now and decided it's time I join you guys  :P  I have understood much more about prolo, just reading your updates, and following this thread!

Here's my story: I tore my right meniscus playing basketball about 2 years ago after I was in extraordinary shape and suddenly stopped due to personal problems, barely ate, never exercised or went to the weight room. Lost overal (muscle) weight and came back to play 2 months later as I thought I'll atleast shoot some hoops, but take it slow as it was my first again on the court. I was over exerting myself, jumping to the extreme, thinking why isn't it the same? Why can't I jump as high. Why am I slower.. Next day, my knee started hurting. Thinking it was sore, I gave it a few days rest, and continued. I did this a few times and the "soreness" or "pain" started increasing and took longer to decrease everytime I went back to play. It became very bad. Playing for about 2-3 months after this initial pain.

I decided it's time for a x-ray and an MRI. X-ray was fine, so went to get an MRI. Grade 2 Medial Meniscus tear with slight effusion and patella femoral..  Regular doctor said 6 months rest and should be fine. I was still walking around due to college but my other knee started to weaken as I was straining it more, and a weird bend in my left knee and soon enough, both knees starting to have medial meniscus problems.

Haven't got an mri or an x-ray on the left knee but I did do therapy a year later for both knees.  It's improved. But Still I'm unable to bend my knee. Since the day of the diagnosis in my right knee, I've been wanting an opportunity to go to Dr. Hauser and get treatment started on my knee(s) but I figured I'd give it a shot in therapy.

So, I'm here now, and when financially able, I'd love to visit him or any great PROLO-PRP doctor in the New Jersey/New York some day within an year.

Till then, I will get back to exercising to see if it improves as I stopped exercising once I was released from physical therapy.

I would just like to point out, for anyone, to please take it easy, if you feel any pain anywhere, because it's not worth injuring yourself to a further extent!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: BackToStart on March 16, 2011, 05:57:23 PM
I had 1 question, which I would like some knowledge to! Having an atleast 2 year old injury (such as my case). There would be scar tissue in place of some of the meniscus. Since the point of PROLO or PRP in this case would be to re-grow meniscus, would it STILL grow and some how get rid of the scar tissue? Because I'm not 100% sure but  surgery is one of the only times when the doctor removes scar tissue. I ask because the re-grown meniscus would be much STRONGER and RELIABLE in place of the scar tissue. What would happen to an old injury like this if I were to start treatment at some point. No doubt it would improve, but what would happen to the scar tissue and anyway other than surgery to get rid of the scar tissue?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on March 27, 2011, 07:47:25 PM
Back to start:

Hey...no expert here...but what I can surmise, is prp, prolo, stem cells are purported to have a several-fold action.

It includes a wrecking crew action (where the damaged tissue cells and old scar tissue cells are disolved), that's the inflammation stage where your injury feels hot, and really puffy-painful.

The next is the set-up period for nearly twenty days....these fibro-blasts, and growth factors...(which help the new tissue communicate), spring forth to form some nice new perfect collagen which provides the basis for the new ligament, tendon, cartilage or meniscus...

Anyway...that's what the going info is...anyway from what I gather, and this is really an oversimplified version mind you.:) 

So to wrap up: as far as scar tissue is concerned...the cleaning out action, and changing out scar tissue for newer tissue is really considered an upside..as many injuries if they do heal with scar tissue lose the original and necessary flexibility needed for longevity and strength of the joint

Brittle scar tissue can be deleterious to an injury in that the rest of the area can then become MORE vulnerable to injury because the mechanical forces are then out of balance.

In your case...its hard to know if there is scar tissue in your meniscus or how much there is...  These things don't have much of a blood supply to create scar tissue to begin with...so the whole question may really be moot...:)

Sorry...on a roll...like to hear what others have to say.

~Crumpet
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 31, 2011, 05:03:43 AM
Opening some doors into my world and what I have done.  First a study I reference to validate my GH-inducing peptide usage.

Growth Hormone and Collagen Synthesis

In their review paper from 2005, Doessing and Kjaer claimed that one main function of GH is its stimulating effect on collagen synthesis, which might have positive consequences for athletes [16] . Collagen, being an important strength-carrying part of the connective tissue and influencing the function of the muscle–tendon unit, is essential for athletic performance. Exercise stimulates collagen synthesis in the extracellular matrix [17] , and it also stimulates the pulsatile secretion of GH and increases the concentrations of IGF-I, IGF-binding protein 3, and the acid-labile subunit.

There are several studies that support a connection between the GH–IGF-I axis and collagen synthesis. IGF- I has been shown to promote collagen synthesis in tendons in vitro [18] . In addition, following Achilles tendon transection in rats, local IGF-I treatment rendered faster recovery compared with controls [19] . Furthermore, supplementation with recombinant human GH for 14 days increased collagen turnover in knee tendons and ligaments in GH-deficient dwarf rats [20] . In patients with acromegaly, arthropathy is observed secondary to periarticular soft-tissue hypertrophy and excess cartilage synthesis, which is mostly reduced by somatostatin analogue therapy that successfully reduces high circulating GH and IGF-I levels [21] . Finally, in GH-deficient children and adults, decreased connective tissue deposition is observed when compared with healthy individuals [22] , which then seems to be reversible with GH supplementation [23]

In the GH 2000/2004 project described previously, it was shown that recombinant human GH dose-dependently increased whole body soft tissue collagen synthesis [24] . In another study in this project , higher collagen synthesis was observed in an exercising group taking GH, when compared with an exercising placebo group [25]

As concluded by Doessing and Kjaer in their review, supraphysiological doses of GH could have an effect on collagen synthesis but not on myofibrillar protein synthesis; this is possibly due to the scaffold structure of the connective tissue in the skeletal muscle, making it more exposed to changes in hormone concentrations in plasma [16] . The hypothetical relationship between GH concentrations in plasma and the net synthesis of myofibrillar and collagen proteins according to Doessing and Kjaer is shown in figure 3 , in which the net synthesis of myofibrillar protein seems to reach a plateau whereas collagen synthesis continues to increase with increasing concentrations of GH.






Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on March 31, 2011, 05:08:54 AM
An short article I wrote a while back and again shed light onto what I have done for my recovery.  Note:  this is meant for males.  Nandrolone is highly androgenic (what makes men...men) and should be used by women cautiously.

Deca and Its Impact on Joints

Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) has been anecdotally known to reduce joint pain. Many state that this is likely caused from water retention in the joint but in reality no one really knows the mechanisms involved in Deca reducing joint pain, or its impacts on healing for that matter. I will attempt to answer Deca's joint pain relief abilities a bit better than most out there and base it on documented research and my own personal experience.

I will not go into a description of Deca or how to cycle it but what I will cover is a bit of joint basics. The joint must be looked at as a complex unit but mainly, we can focus on tendons, ligaments, bones and cartilage. Most lay-person discussions out there focus on what they feel Deca does to their tendons. This is actually incorrect when it comes to joint pain for 2 reasons. First, tendons as well as ligaments make up a joint but ligaments mainly maintain control of correct joint tracking. Second, most pain radiates from a specific area called the periosteum, or lining of the bone. The Periosteum is what tendons and ligaments attach to and it contains significant nerve endings, making it sensitive to manipulation. Tendons and ligaments themselves do not have nerves so they, in fact, are not specifically the cause of pain. Cartilage can also play a role in pain generation but these mechanisms involved are complex and essentially unknown to the medical world so it will not be dealt with here.

Having this background, let's talk about some ways Deca benefits our joints. Simplistically, Deca has been shown extensively to increase bone density [no reference given] and collagen production [1] with collagen making up a major portion of tendons and ligaments. I say simplistically because other AAS', such as Stanozolol, will also increase collagen production but seems to have a different impact on our joints. Although bone density and collagen production is important, they are not the only factor that seems to help with joint pain.

Going further with our collagen thinking, a research article on artificial tendons shows Deca significantly increased both the stress and strain when the tendon was given the AAS and then loaded over time [2]. Loading meant giving the tendon a workout for a few days. What this increased stress and strain shows is that the artificial tendon could be pulled farther to failure and took more energy to do so but only after this daily workout was initiated for a week. Physically what could be seen in these loaded tendons is a distinct increase in actin fibers and the tendon itself was much thinner in diameter. The change seen in this study must obviously translate to the bone's Periosteum itself for pain reduction but the mechanisms involved were not studied. What is good to know is when using Deca, there are documented physical changes in the tendons, ligaments and bone hence most likely a change at their connection points.

Now let's talk about how Deca might make these changes. Deca's complexity on how it interacts with the body is amazing and this can specifically be seen in gene expression. In one study a muscle was administered Deca right after eliminating nerve connections and then compared to a muscle given Deca after 28 days from cutting the nerve. Between the two muscles, there was only a 16% gene expression correlation [3] with 122 and 123 genes were altered respectively with only 20 being the same gene. This means that Deca acts very differently on the body as the body stimulus changes. Referencing joints, we can only surmise from this that a very unique set of genes are altered within tendons, ligaments and bone when acted upon. This thinking would correlate well with the prior discussion on artificial tendon loading. In that study, the artificial tendon increased the protein actin only when loaded, hence a change in stimulus relates to a change in gene expression that shows itself physically. Unfortunately until genetic studies are done on ligaments and tendons, we will never know the specific genes being expressed.

How does this associated to real life? Many of us can talk on the joint pain relief Deca gives us while on cycling, including me. What I can elaborate on further is the physical changes seen in my own tendons. An MRI done on my ankle 8 weeks after initiating a Deca cycle with intense weight lifting showed thinning of my tendons in multiple locations. This came up as an anomaly to the MRI reader but obviously this was something I was expecting and even hoping for to confirm independent research.

So it seems the best way to get the most out of Deca for joint pain relief is by stressing the joints while cycling it. For us looking at this specific use, let's not forget that stress on the joint is not only in the form of weight lifting but can be impact related as well. With a caveat to overdoing it, the bottom line for Deca and joint pain relief: work out your joints harder while on your cycle and you will see more benefit from it.

1. Christian Hassager, et. al. Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during therapy with anabolic steroid or female sex hormones. Metabolism, vol. 39, Issue 11.
2. Ioannis K. Triantafillopoulos, et. al. Nandrolone Decanoate and Load Increase
Remodeling and Strength in Human Supraspinatus Bioartificial Tendons. The American Journal of Sports Medicine, Vol. 32, No. 4.
3. Weiping Qin, et. al. Differential alterations in gene expression profiles contribute to time-dependent effects of Nandrolone to prevent denervation atrophy. 2010 Qin et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mtlbab on April 02, 2011, 05:37:28 PM
Hi gb :

First of all, thank-you very much for your efforts at enlightening us all about your experiences in re-building your knees. Your posts have helped many gain a greater understanding of the possible treatment avenues available. The time you devoted to this endeavor has benefited myself and many others.

I have a question for you...in a 4 Jan 2011 post, you mentioned :

"I'm not allowed MRI on the knee for at least 6 months following the last injection. MRI's are bad for the stem cells. so difficult to tell at this point."

Can you point me to studies/data to substantiate that MRI's have negative effects on stem cells ?

I've read where contrast agents can have deleterious effects on stems cells, but MRIs are most often performed on knees absent such agents. 

Thank-you so much for the assist.

Cheers;

MTLBAB
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: BackToStart on April 08, 2011, 03:26:20 AM
Thanks for the quick reply Crumpet! It would be a blessing if that does happen which I believe you may be right. Also I heard a cortisone shot dissolves scar tissue!  Quite a study there irentat! One question: Thin tendons are better than thick ones if they are as strong?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 11, 2011, 03:53:30 PM
Quite a study there irentat! One question: Thin tendons are better than thick ones if they are as strong?

I would not look at it as thin vs. thick on the tendons but a structural change in them.  I would suggest seeing it as an engineering solution of tensile strength.  The worked tendons in the study became thinner but also stronger at the same time, hence tensile strength goes way up.  Just something the body does but don't know why.  Just report what I find...and confirm with my own use.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on April 14, 2011, 12:19:40 AM


Forgive my chiming in on this one...again.  There is a notion that the fibers kind of fray and get a bit shaggy on the tendons, meniscus...what have you. 

The prolotherapy is purported to REGATHER the cells in such a way as to return the tissue to its proper integrity.  Sometimes that could make a tendon appear skinnier on an mri after treatment whereas before treatment it might appear bulky and show signal changes.

I like what irentat wrote before stating that sometimes doctors are unaware of the volume of shots that are needed to get the sought after response.

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: BackToStart on April 15, 2011, 05:53:54 AM
Thank Irentat :) That was interesting. It's a good thing either way! So, in other words crumpet, a proper Prolo doctor is needed :P
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: crumpet on April 25, 2011, 12:56:08 AM
Happy Easter Everyone.

Hopefully a good dinner will do our joints some good!:)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: gb on May 04, 2011, 01:11:47 AM
MTLBAB,

Just following directions by my MD at Regenexx. I personally don't have any data for you.

BTW, i'll be providing an update soon. Its been 6 months since my first regenexx procedure on my knees (degenerative knee + a displaced  lateral meniscus that was squeezed out of the joint) and the results have been very good. I've experienced many PRP and prolo from the the Hauser clinic in Chicago and 3 visits for the regenexx's stem cell procedure, and in my opinion, for cartilage repair, ie. articular cartilage and meniscus, regenexx is by far the better option. More potent, more powerful and much more acccurate. (very important!)

gb

Hi gb :

First of all, thank-you very much for your efforts at enlightening us all about your experiences in re-building your knees. Your posts have helped many gain a greater understanding of the possible treatment avenues available. The time you devoted to this endeavor has benefited myself and many others.

I have a question for you...in a 4 Jan 2011 post, you mentioned :

"I'm not allowed MRI on the knee for at least 6 months following the last injection. MRI's are bad for the stem cells. so difficult to tell at this point."

Can you point me to studies/data to substantiate that MRI's have negative effects on stem cells ?

I've read where contrast agents can have deleterious effects on stems cells, but MRIs are most often performed on knees absent such agents. 

Thank-you so much for the assist.

Cheers;

MTLBAB
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: sbstritt on May 13, 2011, 01:45:10 AM
I have had two previous partial meniscectomies on my left medial meniscus with a total 30% of it removed.  I am wondering if anyone on this site has had regenexx who had a partial meniscectomy and what type of results they had?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: awfulknee88 on May 18, 2011, 06:28:22 PM
My left knee is suffering from serious tendonosis. I used to be an avid runner and soccer player and have not been able to consistenly run longer than a mile for more than once a week without severe pain. I have tried everything over the past 3 years starting with year 1: an open debridement, followed by PT: Year 2 I tried prolotherapy for about 2 months with no success and I also underwent 1 shot of PRP but I stopped because it was so expensive ($1000) and I didn't see any improvement after a month. The shot was given blind and no ultrasound was used which could be why it didn't go well. After all of this I caved and underwent another knee surgery last march in which I had my patellar tendon scoped and "cleaned up". My knee hasn't gotten any better a year since the surgery and I am clueless as to what to do. I cannot continue this lifestyle of not being able to be active. I am considering PRP again as the costs have gone down and is more affordable now. I am willing to try anything to get my knee better. In regards to the PRP, what is the typical amount of shots needed for a person such as myself whose condition is severe and degenerative. Also, what is the best duration to recieve the shots in to help make the healing process as effective as possible. As far as I know, my doctor only uses PRP and no additional substances such as HGH. Would it be beneficial to recieve a prolo shot in the time between getting the second PRP shot to continue to promote inflamation. Given my condition is PRP even worth me trying or is a more intensive surgery my best option? I am unsure of what to do at this point as I feel that I've tried everything. I can't make my quad stronger as the pain prevents my body from allowing it to properly fire. It has since atrophied to a 1/3rd the size of my other quad which is so much stronger than it now. Any advice or suggestions would help. I am a recent college grad who has just started full time employment so I am willing to try anythign that would prevent me from missing a month of work for knee surgery. Thanks for the help and let me know if anymore details would be helpful. I apologize if this post is poorly structured. This is my first time doing a blog like this.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: rob wilson on May 18, 2011, 10:04:02 PM
FYI - there is prolotherapy (1 or 2 injections into the knee tendons) and then there is Hackett Hemwell prolotherapy (~ 20 injections of PRP, HGH, testosterone, prolotherapy / destrose, sodium murrahte, etc.). The results can be drastically different.

Check out www.caringmedical.com

Check out www.regenexx.com for stem cells as well.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 19, 2011, 07:27:33 PM
Awful,

Here are my comments based on what you wrote:
year 1, not surprised you got little/no relief.
Year 2, 2 prolo therapies is just getting started but then again, not all prolotherapists are the same.  Some are not very good and give the whole group a bad rep.
Year 3, OMG $1K for a PRP?!  I think PRP is good but there are better modalities and, I think, should be used when the recovery needs to be quick and the damage not that intense (think pro football and recovering from a sprain for next week)

You have given little info on the cartilage condition.  FYI, the tendon should be taken care of easily by a GOOD prolotherapist in just a few sessions.  Cartilage damage takes many years to fully recover but you can.  I am on my 3rd year of complete joint rebuilding in both ankles and things just get better and better but I also am constantly working on it with injections, PT, etc.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: helenhelen on May 25, 2011, 11:22:22 PM
i was excited to read this (but have not yet gone through the entire thread), so i googled "prolotherapy toronto" (where i live) to see who offers it in toronto.

well, a bunch of surfing later, i came across this blog entry:
http://healthblog.ctv.ca/post/Trendy-athletic-therapy-may-not-have-any-benefit.aspx

this is actually my doctor who is taking care of my knees right now (he's a sports medicine doctor).

any thoughts?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 26, 2011, 12:17:15 AM
i was excited to read this (but have not yet gone through the entire thread), so i googled "prolotherapy toronto" (where i live) to see who offers it in toronto.

well, a bunch of surfing later, i came across this blog entry:
http://healthblog.ctv.ca/post/Trendy-athletic-therapy-may-not-have-any-benefit.aspx

this is actually my doctor who is taking care of my knees right now (he's a sports medicine doctor).

any thoughts?
I have had probably a hundred injections into my joints over the last 3 years (most being done by myself).  Based on the fact that I have had every method done that can rebuild cartilage in the joint, the order of benefit, for me, is: testosterone, dextrose, HGH, PRP.  Probably missing one or two in there and not going to try hylauronic acid or adequan.  Pretty much just do testosterone injections now with GH every once in a while.  BTW, joints coming back with a vengeance now that I am doing multiple injections weekly. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: BackToStart on May 28, 2011, 01:46:16 AM
Hey Irentat.

How are you able to do the injections yourself into the joint? Are you a doctor? Sometype of medical major? I Won't try this but am very interested how you are able to inject yourself. What solutions do you use?

Thanks!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 28, 2011, 05:26:20 AM
Hey Irentat.

How are you able to do the injections yourself into the joint? Are you a doctor? Sometype of medical major? I Won't try this but am very interested how you are able to inject yourself. What solutions do you use?

Thanks!
I don't advise anyone do self injections.  Only trying to convey that much more can be done to recover joints that "average" people just don't pursue.  Been researching joints and joint rebuilding for 3 years, but lately not as much as I feel I have a correct protocol for myself.

If you can easily reach the joint with one hand, you can inject.  Personally, I have only done ankles, knees, big toe and finger joints.  No medical training, just taught myself.  Cannot say I do it "per the book" but never miss the ankle.  Not sure on the knee accuracy however but big toe and fingers are very obvious.  Not sure what you mean by "what solutions do I use". 

I don't suggest anyone do what I do however.  Lots of research into what to inject, needle size, needle entry and how to keep the area clean was done ahead of time.  Not for the faint of heart.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: soccer player on May 30, 2011, 04:20:35 AM
I have read this site for over a year and have picked up a lot of useful information and options. I suffered from patella tendonitis and cartilage degrading behind the knee cap. I found prp works well for tendonitis but only if it is used with ultrasound to find the areas that need repaired otherwise it is not as effective. I  did stem cells in both knees with good results. The Dr used fat stem cells that were taken out that day spun for a couple of hours and injected back in with prp.
This improved the cartilage behind the knee cap. I had some miniscus pain which I am still working on. I have tried to get hgh shots but was declined by Drs in Orlando, I might have to go to Miami for this. I also found an equestrian drug called Pentosan which seems to be very impressive for cartilage repair. I have not tried this yet. Although I have improved using stem cells I am not yet 100%, but a lot better thanks to information on this site. I did read up on a new surgery technique for damaged cartilage which I will talk about later. So far i have had two knee scopes, one on each, and 7 prps and one stem cell on each knee.  The last prp I did was 7 weeks ago the Dr worked with me and injected around the area where the scoping surgery instruments entered, I have felt a lot better since this. ????  There is a lot of cures out there and this site is taking us in the right direction.

Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: amoler on June 03, 2011, 09:21:30 PM
I'm slated for PRP on Jun 28. Dr's office won't give me a straight answer on on what to expect the first few days after. Just getting them to confirm that I won't be able to take any meds for the pain except Tylenol was like pulling teeth. Anybody have some info on swelling/ pain/ flexibility from their PRP? I'm trying to guess on whether I'll be going to work on crutches the following day and whether the pain level is going to give me nights of no sleep. -That's a big issue because that's one of my migraine triggers - like I really need ungodly head pain on top of the knee issue  ::) I know "everybody's mileage may vary" but I trying to figure out best case/worst case scenarios.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 03, 2011, 09:57:46 PM
I'm slated for PRP on Jun 28. Dr's office won't give me a straight answer on on what to expect the first few days after. Just getting them to confirm that I won't be able to take any meds for the pain except Tylenol was like pulling teeth. Anybody have some info on swelling/ pain/ flexibility from their PRP? I'm trying to guess on whether I'll be going to work on crutches the following day and whether the pain level is going to give me nights of no sleep. -That's a big issue because that's one of my migraine triggers - like I really need ungodly head pain on top of the knee issue  ::) I know "everybody's mileage may vary" but I trying to figure out best case/worst case scenarios.

PRP is acidic.  Make sure your doctor adjusts the pH to neutral.  If is not aware of this, tell him to call the manufacturer of the equipment for details. My PRP shots have not been very painful, if at all.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ollieboy on June 27, 2011, 03:08:51 AM
Hi!

Been reading this thread for quite some time now and finally decided to join the discussion =)

Irentat, I'm very intrigued by some of your posts, lately you've written about testosterone injections intra articularly, can you say something more about that?
Which kind of T? How much? What is the purpose of testosterone within the joint? Sorry for all the questions at the same time..

Secondly I'm very intrested in the rehab training you did after Dr Dunn's iagh treatment. I will start to inject myself soon and just want to gather as much info as possible first. (i am a med student, so Im not completely lost, hehe)

Had a very bad micro fracture surgery 2 years ago and Im still trying to recover, (went from little pain while running 40mins+ outdoors to not being able to walk. Thought I was having a meniscus surgery only to wake up and find out that they had performed a micro fracture of the articular cartilage in the epicondyle..) no orthopedic in my country dares to touch it today.. Sigh, so I guess it's up to me to treat myself.

/Ollie
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 27, 2011, 05:18:04 PM
Ollie,
You are one up on me being a med student.

If you really want to do your own injections, like I do, you will be using testosterone suspension (aqueous).  I use about 50 mg per shot and got the best results doing the shots every 2-3 days or as often as possible.  However the perservative is a irritant after a while and you will have to slow down the shots.  I have done probably hundreds of different shots by this point and T had the most impact.  Do this protocol for a few months and I am pretty sure you will see results.  As a reference, I went from not being able to walk to being able to do full sprints without pain.  This took 3 years but both ankles had not cartilage left so a lot of rebuilding was needed.

In the joint, Testosterone converts into Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and is taken up by the androgen receptors in the cartilage (yes even cartilage has these receptors).  I cannot report on T's ability to repair area specific damage but can report that when the whole joint cartilage is gone, it does a phenomenal job of bringing it back.  Oddly, my research also indicates it does not convert into estrogen while in the joint which is a big benefit.  Bottom line, you have nothing to lose by trying it.

After going to Dunn for surgery and GH injections, I really did not have a protocol as I was in a brace for 8 months.  Afterwards I did some light lifting and stretching but it was only after getting on the steroid Nandrolone (see prior posts) and intense streching and lifting that I had real results.
Tell us how it goes.  I want to hear of other's success.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ollieboy on June 28, 2011, 01:16:05 AM
Thanks for the reply!

I've never heard about T-injections IA, but have to admit it sounds very intresting. Have to see if I can get my hands on some suspension as the enanthate I currently have in stock probably will just mess up the joint massively with irritation ;)

Regarding Deca, as far as I have understood it after speaking to one of the professors at my uni; nandrolone doesn't provide any direct repair to joints. However it is supposed to numb out a lot of the pain which allows rehab training on a whole new level.. Well, who knows?

I'm amazed that you didn't get a very specific rehab program while getting the iagh treatment! I would suppose half of the healing of the joint would be to restore normal muscular/nerve function.. That's how I see it from my point of view anyway! I guess it's pretty usual that orthopedics and doctors in general focus too much on the mechanics of the joint and as soon as it is restored the actual functionality of the joint is forgotten..

Back to my own story,
I have tried MGF and GHRP both IA and multiple micro injections around the injured areas.

Now 6 months after that I feel that something has happened, I definately experience more and stronger crepitations, but if that comes from cartilage growth or something else, I really can't tell..

I still have a long way to go either way.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 28, 2011, 06:18:00 PM
Regarding Deca, and who knows...I know.  If you look at my prior post regarding this, directly reference a research article showing how Deca increases the strength of tendons.  Beyond all that, most comments I know of are anectdotal and do not adhere to a strict protocol to evaluate results.  For me, the results were permanent after getting off of Deca.  Overall, your professor is looking at it too simply by referencing "numbing". 

GH inducing peptides are meant to activate the pituitary only so see no benefit by doing area shots.  I use them for overall body GH generation (specifically for collagen synthesis).  MGF, I think would be helpful and have even thought of IGF peptides for IA myself but testosterone is just giving me too much success right now to deviate from my protocol.

As a reference, I use joint pain and articluation as a reference but multiple MRI's show consistent growth of cartilage.  Going from not being able to walk to all out sprinting with no pain is a major improvement.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Saverio on June 29, 2011, 12:32:33 PM
Hi irentat,

Saverio here.  I have posted under stem cells (regenexx).  Got 2 (1 in each knee) procedures back in 2008.  Doing very well compared to where I was, but not 100% back.  Your posts are interesting. The 'T' injections peaked my curiosity.  Is it available to anyone or only thru Drs.  Maybe you can inform us?

Saverio
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on June 29, 2011, 06:29:03 PM
Hi irentat,
Saverio here.  I have posted under stem cells (regenexx).  Got 2 (1 in each knee) procedures back in 2008.  Doing very well compared to where I was, but not 100% back.  Your posts are interesting. The 'T' injections peaked my curiosity.  Is it available to anyone or only thru Drs.  Maybe you can inform us?
Saverio

Saviero,
I have only found T being injected by prolotherapists, and certain ones at that.  It is an "off label" use of the steroid and hence scares most doctors away (worried about being scrutinized) but naturapaths are not as worried as a general rule.  You have to ask around and see who is willing to do it for you.  There are no set protocols out there for amounts and how often so the doc you find willing to do it may want more information but I have found 50 mg every week in the ankle or knee is good.  Larger joints can handle more.  I have never found a negative side effect from these injections except for some pain caused by the preservative (benzyl alcohol generally).

Here are some research articles on T and effects on cartilage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6714514
http://www.springerlink.com/content/8585m301qt175np6/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1958568

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on July 10, 2011, 06:01:09 AM
Irentat

I have really liked reading your posts. I am very interested in your protocols, they make me feel like there is hope. My patellar cartilage is really worn down. Is there anyway I might communicate with you outside of this forum to learn the finer details of what you are doing?

Thanks,

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on July 10, 2011, 02:24:18 PM
Irentat

I have really liked reading your posts. I am very interested in your protocols, they make me feel like there is hope. My patellar cartilage is really worn down. Is there anyway I might communicate with you outside of this forum to learn the finer details of what you are doing?

Thanks,

Bryan

Shoot me a PM and we can exchange info via email or phone.  I have talked to a number of people like this but can only offer what I have seen and learned from years of research. I am not a doctor.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on July 10, 2011, 07:39:02 PM
Hi Irentat

I am embarrassed to say I can't find where to send a PM on this site. You can email at [email protected]

Thanks,

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Allscarredup on July 15, 2011, 03:59:57 AM
If it's not a bother, I'd also love to talk to you a bit over email. I've been seeing docs now for some time and they're going to try the synvisc, then the prp,  then bedside bmac. I'd like to know what's out there that's worked for you. [email protected]
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on July 15, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Allscarredup,
What exactly is the issue?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Georgiana on August 06, 2011, 03:59:26 PM
WOW...ok yesterday i read all 20 pages of this thread and found it both fascinating and encouraging. I am not sure if I am a a good canidate though as I read many times that they have to fix the cause of the breakdown b4 they can start to repair the damage. Well I know my cause is a lateral tracking patella due to misalignment. I have had 30 yrs of grinding and creaking and now I am bone on bone under the kneecap and the femoral-patella groove is 5x wider than it should be. In Feb. of this year I dislocated my kneecap and sprained the MCL grade III and tore the Medial retinaculum at the MPFL juncture. I also have 2 tears on the lateral meniscus.

4 of the 6 OS's won't touch me and the other 2 want to do a Fulkerson Osteotomy and then repair all soft tissue damage. I don't want the FO and that's why this thread peaked my interst.

I know you are not Dr.s but in your humble opinion, do you think their is hope for me?

My other concern is the money...WOW...
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on August 06, 2011, 04:31:10 PM
Georgiana,
Of course there is help for you.  It is your decision to see how far you can take it.  What is your knee worth?  I would have given ALL I own and gone bankrupt to get what I received in return (thank god I didn't have to).  It is a personal decision.

You have read this thread and from there, I would advise researching the hell out of each condition to make sure what you can and cannot do to repair or rebuild.  Remember, doctors only know what they know...meaning they aren't gods and cannot know every option out there.  And even if they do know of options, they choose not to use them for any number of reasons (no financial benefit, medical scrutiny, personal preferences, etc.).  

You control your destiny, not doctors.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Georgiana on August 06, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
irentat- thank you so much for your insight. I absolutly plan on researching further and of course hopefully finding an experienced  Dr. in my area who practices and believes in these types of procedures. Or I may just start a knee repair fund hahaha and even if it takes a couple years I will travel to see the best.

I am just so thankful that I did not go through with the surgery, and that I have other options to explore.

I wish you the best and I hope you have continued improvements, I also look forward to reading more of your posts  :)
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Allscarredup on August 09, 2011, 05:01:20 PM
Did synvisc yesterday. I can't take off work to stay off it and I'm on my feet a lot, but so far it doesn't feel great. All the advice says it'll take 4-8 weeks to "kick in" the relief. So I'll see how that goes. Right now it just feels like a big swollen irritated joint. Ugh.

I did, however, talk to my doctor about GH injections. His response: "Obviously we can't do them because of regulations, and there are probably guys in Florida, for example, that will do that... but it probably works [for cartilage repair.]"

I noted how he accessed the joint. I'm readying myself to begin doing this.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on August 22, 2011, 07:01:58 AM
Quote
Ben,
Do you know what type of HGH you were given?  Do you know if it was Jintropin or Somatropin?  These are the only two types that I really know about.  Thanks.
Quote

Dr. Dunn uses Omitrope...I honestly feel because it is cheaper and he must get the same results since he has done hundreds of joints.  My Prolotherapist in Phoenix would not use anything other than Humatrope because it is American made by Eli Lilly.  He was very specific that you don't want to chance putting anything but the purest into the joint. Both worked so I cannot argue one against the other.  Humatrope is a good 20% more in cost and it's not cheap stuff to begin with.  Further, people don't realize the amount Dr. Dunn puts in the joint.  It's way more than you think.

Ben

Ben,

I have been reading your posts in regard to PRP and HGH and can only say that they are inspiring.  I'm a CrossFit Football instructor and up until recently, have been able to perform those types of workouts at a high level.  They have come to a screeching halt in the last couple of weeks.  I have bone-on-bone,articular cartilage damage on the right knee.  The left is status post ACL reconstruction with buckethorn tear of the meniscus, 1999. 

I've had prolo here in Los Angeles with mixed results.  It's taken away SOME of the pain, but not all.  I can still run, lift, etc, but now it takes at least 4-5 DAYS to recover from one squat workout.  There is always a constant, nagging pain throughout the right knee joint, with the left having moderate, occasional flare ups.  I have an appointment with my prolo doc on August 31st.  I'm thinking of asking about PRP and would like to ask about HGH.  I'm fairly certain he doesn't do the latter and his PRP shots seem expensive, even for PRP.  $800 per knee, guided by ultrasound. 

I would be very interested to hear with whom you're receiving HGH shots from in Phoenix, as it's a relatively short drive from Los Angeles.  I also have friends in the area with whom I could stay.  Also, it would be interesting to hear the cost of the HGH shots, too.  I looked up a doctor online in Miami who only charges $780 for both joints.  It makes me wish I still lived in Florida. 

I've also been looking into Regenexx, Stem Cell Therapy Center in Rancho Mirage, CA; and procedures offered by The Stone Clinic in San Francsisco.  ALL of these are quite costly.  I don't mind, but if I could find a suitable alternative, I would!

In any event, any information you can provide in regard to physician, cost, etc., would be helpful.  Thank you!

Mike
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on August 27, 2011, 04:11:39 PM
Mike,
Please do read all of everyone's posts here.  As we all do, we progress as we learn more.  My learning has driven me to focus on Testosterone shots into the joint.  However, I did exclusively GH in the past years but not to the extend I have T recently.  T is just cheaper and gave me faster results.  GH took $5K dollars to get the results I got from just a hundred dollars of T suspension (meaning in water).

As for my doc:  Dr. David Tallman:  http://www.arizonaprolotherapy.com/  He will work with you on a therapy he feels works and may include GH or T if you so desire.  After Dunn, I used him for GH and now 3 years later, I use him for T, if I don't inject myself (shoulders are impossible to do alone for example).
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Cubbieblue on September 12, 2011, 03:22:33 AM
Irentat,

I tried to PM you but since I just registered I think it won't let me send PMs yet. I thought I was the only guy crazy enough to be giving myself prolo! I have tendonitis in multiple locations due to quinolone antibiotics (Cipro) and after paying a few hundred bucks for prolo I figured - nuts to this, I can figure it out myself. Since then I've been using a small needle (too small probably) 30g .5" and have been doing around .3 mL into various spots in my achilles tendon/knee/shoulder with a solution ranging from 25% dextrose to 12.5% dextrose. I've found the higher % dextrose to work better.  I also tried out some dry needling which seemed to cause a lot of pain and inflammation without the quick recovery I usually get from prolo.

I found a few helpful references on the net but am really looking for something better (a Hackett-Hemwall text or something similar). I also have questions for you about the aqua based testosterone solution...I've got cypionate on hand, but obviously that won't work.

Can you PM me with an e-mail address so I can pepper you with questions? :)

Thank you!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Cubbieblue on September 13, 2011, 02:57:11 AM
Bump for Irentat..if anyone can put me in contact with him please let me know.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: golmalhe on September 24, 2011, 12:20:44 AM
Hi I am 35 years old and about 5 months back I came to know that I've torn my meniscus on right knee. Regular Ortho doctors were suggesting the surgery to remove the torn piece. But I was hesitant to do it. Finally did lot of research and found out about Regenexx. I went and saw the Dr. Centino(in colorado, USA) who is specialist in the area. After discussing with him my problem he offered me to take the conservative approach of PRP instead directly jumping to stem cell. So I've been taking PRP since last 3 months. I just had one day before yesterday. They do PRP under x-ray guidance(i.e. they monitor where the needle is going in the knee before they start injecting it). The only difference I am seeing with their procedure and some of the online videos that they only give about 2-3 injections and they really go deep into the ligaments and cartilage. Also after I take PRP, I get really really sore and my pain level is almost 10+++. They advised me to not do ice packs and not to take any anti-inflammatory medicine. Only use HEAT pack. After PRP for atleast for 2 days I can't walk at all but it then slowly gets better. I am planning to get an MRI done after the last PRP to measure the success of it. If no success then I will go for stem cell approach.

Does other have the their PRP done the same way as mine? or different way?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: CPKnees on October 03, 2011, 08:35:34 AM
Hi everyone!

I developed problems in both knees during the last year. It started in the left knee, for which I had ACL reconstruction at age 17 (it was due to a sport injury I sustained at 14. I'm now 30). Then, the right one started hurting too, but I had never had problems with it before (no accident). I've been told my patellas may be mistracking (I get a different opinion everytime I seen someone new!). From what I've come to understand, since I feel a burning sensation under the kneecaps accompanied with delayed pain, its typical of cartilage problem. Rest of the knees feels fine.

I'm from Quebec where, get this, prolotherapy is banned by the authorities, except for PRP injections. And I've only found 2 places so far where they do it, one where it's advertized as "new", so I won't be going there, and another doctor that I found through a physical therapist who has experience (he's 70+ years old).

I'm trying to gather as much information as I can to decide a course of treatments. It seems I may have to get out of my province for that, so info is very important since it's gonna cost me $$$$$$$. So I'm looking for info on prolotherapy treatments in Ontario (Ottawa, Toronto or else), Chicago (Dr. Hauser) and Florida (I have snowbird family there, so traveling expenses will be cut dramatically), or anywhere else if the doc has very good references.

I would like to further communicate outside this forum with people having more experience and knowledge on prolotherapy. Mainly, I would like to communicate with gb and irentat. If you guys are interested, I'd greatly appreciate if you could pm me. From what I've read, you guys are the ones that have posted the most on the subject. Especially since gb, from what I've understand, you're in Ontario, so your infos could be helpful since I'm in Quebec. Also, irentat, you went to see Dr. Dunn in Miami, and I can easily travel to Florida since I have family who owns a place there. I was also interested in how you regenerated your cartilage, but being female, i'm wondering about testosterone injections. Maybe the doc with whom you did this would know how to proceed with women?

Also, if anyone else thinks they have good info and experience and would like to share it with me, I'd be more than glad to communicate with you, please do not hesitate to communicate with me!  :)

Thanks!



Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on October 17, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
If you are looking to regenerate cartilage then PRP injection may not be right choice. It could help with weak tendons and ligaments but not for cartilage, atleast based on my experience this is true. I had almost 10 Prolo, 6 PRP, 8 Prolozone and 2 Bone Marrow Prolotherapy in the last 16 months but still struggling with knee issues. Again everyone's body is different this is just my experience that I had failure with these approach.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Ivy973 on October 21, 2011, 01:42:06 AM
I had 2-3 prp injections in my hips and knees last year (and one BMAC stem cell in one hip), then started back up again this fall (2 sets of prp and one stem cells).  What I've noticed is that a few days after the prp I start feeling better and am able to do more on my feet.  This usually lasts for a few weeks, then pain becomes worse again.  With the stem cells, I am in significant pain for much longer and then don't really end up feeling any better.  I accept that because I know it takes a few months for the stem cells to really grow new cartilage.  Does anyone else have a simialr experience?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: CPKnees on October 22, 2011, 12:18:08 AM
Hello,

I went to the doctor today for the first "tryout" for standard prolotherapy. He only injected one knee intra-articular, with 2-3 shots (I don't know, I wasn't looking... I really don't like needles). He wants to be careful to begin with, to see how it goes and how well I tolerate the dextrose solution.

I'm to see him again in 2 weeks. If I tolerate well the first "tryout", he will go ahead with full prolotherapy in both knees (with many injections, far more than 2-3) for a couple of sessions (3-4). Main goal for the moment will be to stabilize the patellas, which are maltracking (possibly from slack tissues surrounding the patellas) and may be responsible for my chondromalacia. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and it'll help my cartilage too? ;)

We'll also try to stabilize my reconstructed ACL in my left knee if possible. He says it could be done, since when my acl was repaired through surgery 12 years ago, a section of the patellar tendon below the knee was used. Therefor, the repaired acl is live tissue.

Keep up posted on your successes and failures everyone, I've learned so much from reading your posts!

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: CPKnees on November 02, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Hi,

Two weeks since intra-articular dextrose injection in right knee, not much has changed, will go through full prolo tomorrow in both knees.

My doc hasn't given specific instruction for physical therapy, but from what I've read, it seems docs usually encourage exercise while on prolotherapy. Could anyone give me more info on that? Anyway, it's difficult for me to exercise anyway outside of physical therapy due to back problems.

ashok_guru: Thanks for your reply. I've search the forum to get more info about your situation, and from what I understand, your problem lies between your tibia and your femur. It's not my case. My problem is between the patella and the femur. While I understand you haven't had results with prolo, I believe my problem is not exactly the same since it's between the patella and the femur, so it's hard to extrapolate if prolo could help me or not. Might as well try it.

gb: Who is the doctor you saw for ozone therapy in Toronto? I've looked up and found 2 places in Toronto for ozone therapy, including one with Dr. Donn Gaudin who was found to be practicing medicine illegally: http://www.cpso.on.ca/whatsnew/news/default.aspx?id=4536



Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Honeybunch on November 18, 2011, 06:32:45 AM
Hey guys. Great thread you got here.

I'm wondering if I just blew $400 to mess up the treatment. I got prp in my knee 2 days ago and today I had another unrelated procedure done and they gave me 500 ibuprofen - I just realized now it's an anti inflammatory.
Wondering if I ruined my treatment =\ ???

Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: honfleur on November 22, 2011, 04:57:32 PM
GB:

Thanks so much for the valuable information. I've got a patella maltracking problem and some possible cartilage damage. I read that you have had some success with ozone therapy. Were the effects just temporary or do you feel that it has helped to resolve the tracking?

How does one go about finding a qualified doctor for ozone treatments? I live in France.

Thanks!!

Elsa
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on November 23, 2011, 02:02:39 AM
You can try this for ozone therapy doctors

http://oxygenhealingtherapies.com/my_ozone_doctor.com.html

I tried this prolozone injection but I had only temporary relief.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Honeybunch on December 26, 2011, 05:45:43 AM


Got Prolo injections into my knee for a suspected posterior horn mm tear/??/fat pad impingement? 3.5 weeks ago, 3 days ago it "kicked in" and now I am able to walk ! pain has been reduced by 70% easily. Knee is no where near 100% yet, but I went mild hiking yesterday for almost an hour pain free before and only the tiniest twinge after.

saw the doctor at the 2 week mark for more and he said to wait for it to work, he was so right. going for more soon.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on January 26, 2012, 08:17:24 PM
GB,
Awesome thread, thanks so much for all the info! Can you give us an update to how your knee is doing now, after regenexx.
Irentat,
my prolo doc in Calgary also works out of Arizona, and will be doing intra-articular test+prp for me when I fly down to see him. Cant wait to get this done. Judging from what you have experienced with it, I feel it will help wonders for me.
Thanks guys, great thread!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on February 12, 2012, 07:52:17 PM
Affliction,
Tell me how you feel now.  I am still going IA in the ankles and kneed and getting constant improvement.  You should be getting some benefit within weeks after your first shot.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: patkar on March 13, 2012, 11:59:23 PM
Affliction,
Tell me how you feel now.  I am still going IA in the ankles and kneed and getting constant improvement.  You should be getting some benefit within weeks after your first shot.

I have been looking into options for my tendon and ligament problems in my feet. In my investigations I also came upon hcPRP (high concentration)
Check out the these two website. offered only in Vancouver as far as I know.... I spoke to them ... so far results are good.
http://www.canadadiagnostic.com/content/services/pain-management.php
http://www.vancouverlaser.com/procedures-treatments/prp-sports-medicine-orthopedic/
Patkar
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: mnkneeguy on April 01, 2012, 06:15:02 PM
Glad I found this forum.  I have tried prolotherapy for osteoarthritis in my right knee.  The lateral compartment in my right knee is close to bone-on-bone. This is from an ACL repair 25 years ago where I lost quite a bit of meniscus.  The patella also shows wear and tear in my knee.

The prolotherapy I have tried was dextrose and fish oil.  Each visit was around 20 injections around the knee.

It's really hard to quantify the results since pain wasn't my biggest issue.  It's been more about some swelling, stiffness, and general lack of liveliness in the knee.  Range of motion isn't terrible.

So I'm trying to figure out if I should continue prolotherapy, switch to a treatment using ozone, or something else.  This thread is full of discussions on options.  I also have the potential of a partial knee replacement (my original surgeon said Osteotomy which does nothing for me).

I am almost 49, so I don't see the hassle of osteotomy being worth it and the results don't look great compared to the various knee replacement options.

I only have X-Rays of my knee, no MRI.  I contacted the clinic in Colorado but they require an MRI to evaluate if you are a candidate for their treatment.

Appreciate your thoughts/experiences.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: carty on April 02, 2012, 07:38:50 AM
Hi,
has anyone seen real results with HGH or testo injection? Maybee even seen cartilage growing in MRI pics?

Another question would, are women around here, who have tried it? Is that HGH going into all of my system or is it mainly staying in my knee? Which dosage is needed? Normally testo or HGH injected has estremely unplessent side effect on women, especially in women, who still want to have kids, like I do.
What about general risk of developing cancer due to repeated injection of these hormons?


Another question: has anyone heards about FGF?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibroblast_growth_factor
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibroblast-Growth-Factor-18 (It is not mentioned on en-wiki.)


It's said there are clinical trails in phase 1 and 2, to inject FGF-18 to grow cartilage. Here also cancer seems to be an issue. As far as I know ome FGF play a part in tumor growth. I have no information in how far this concerns cartilage treatment.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 02, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
Glad I found this forum. The prolotherapy I have tried was dextrose and fish oil.  Each visit was around 20 injections around the knee.
So I'm trying to figure out if I should continue prolotherapy, switch to a treatment using ozone, or something else.  This thread is full of discussions on options.  I also have the potential of a partial knee replacement (my original surgeon said Osteotomy which does nothing for me).
Appreciate your thoughts/experiences.
How many treatments have you had?  Not only should your prolo be giving you injections around (tendons) but inside to help rebuild.

Based on your situation, I would say 8+ treatments to have you living a normal life, if not active again so close to a year.  This of course depends upon your doc also.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 02, 2012, 01:44:37 PM
Hi,
has anyone seen real results with HGH or testo injection? Maybee even seen cartilage growing in MRI pics?
Another question would, are women around here, who have tried it? What about general risk of developing cancer due to repeated injection of these hormons?
Another question: has anyone heards about FGF?
Yes I have seen real results proven by MRI.  Went from 0 to 2.5 MM in the worst area in about 2 years.  It has now been about 4 since I started my journey and everything only gets better.  I ended up focusing on GH and Test. 

GH is naturally occuring.  What you are doing in the joint is not something to worry about because you won't take it every day.  Test in the joint is aqueous so leaves the system in 8 hours plus again it is intermittent.  Growth factors are everywhere.  IGF-1 is the most promintent and will rebuild cartilage also and yes they are found with cancer cells.  Good question on the cancer.  Even better question, knowing hormones exist naturally as does cancer in your body, what is worth getting your life back?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: carty on April 02, 2012, 04:08:11 PM
Thank for your reply. Well that's exactly the question, what is worth it? I really do not know yet.

Sure there ist even in my female body hgh, igf and testo. Yet, I know from my athletic background the devastating side effects of testo and hgh used for doping female athlets, eben in small dosages. (Of cause I never did this.) Cause if you inject it's not the natural concentration in the body any more.

I ask for MRI, cause apart from the fact, that we all want that nice white tissue back, I know from people who juice that as long as they juice, their muscles feel much, much stronger and they often feel kinds untouchable in a why that they can sustain more than without jiuce. So the question is, if knee improvement comes from new cartilage or mainly from oldfashioned doping.


I'm 32 years ypoung, my husband and me want to have children soon. Now I have to shift plans anyway, because of my knee. If I get cartilage surgery, I need one year, if I get injection somehow, I also need to wait. Only that stuff needs to get out of my body, there must not be any long term effects on my hormon system.

FYI:
Okay, I have found an research project, that offers something to patients. Infos on the webside are not clear what. Just information about stem cell and growth factor procedure or even treatment. It's a big university and clinic in my country, so I phoned around through the burocratic jungle. Now I have an adress, where I can send an email with my questions and medical record and another lady wants to speak to the professor leading that project and call me back after easter holidays.

She ask me, what I'm interested in and I said, well first I need to know, what the project is offering. Then she ask me, if I'm interested in stem cell therapy. I said yes, but I absolutely do not know if they are offering this at all. She ask me to give my number and she will call me back with further information.

So it is still unlear what they are offering at all. Even reliable information would be great. I have read a lot of science articles on the topic of stem cells, igf and stuff. It definately seems to be promising. I think it will be the futur of cartilage repair. There is a huge EU-call/-project (GAMBA) onging to research on stem cells for OE.

As I reported in another thread, there is only one clinic in my country who is offering stem cells right now for OE and first they seem a bit, well... I ask them already, thy only treat persons who have already such a bad condition to need TKR.

So I start thinking I might seriously take that road, if I get the opportunity. I will see what thos guys from the research project tell me. Yet there is the problem, via Internet I found not a single doctor in my country, who explicitly offers igf-injection and therefor could talk about results. Think because of our legal situation it might not be able to have that treatment here.


@irentat: Do you mind to tell me something about yourself (age, gender, activity level), your knee (which defects) and your injection scheme (how often, how much, who is injecting)? Or is there a link, where you posted about that before? I would love to learn about that.

Have you experienced other anabolic effects, aside from cartilage growth? Side effects? Have you used CPM or crutches to promote growth when injecting?


Another question I have: If that stuff helps growing, why it just promotes growning cartilage? What about menisci and lingaments? What I mean is.. how does it NOT promote unwanted growth of kne structures? have your ACL and PCL, menisci changed in MRI?


Okay thats a lot of questions.
If anyone is interested, I will keep you update about that research project.


Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 03, 2012, 04:27:16 AM
Carty,
44 and active now with no pain living a normal life.  4 years ago I could barely walk.  It is my ankles (both).  Look through all of my posts on this thread and you will get all the details  you need on how much and how often. 

No need for crutches, just keep injecting. 

The body knows when it is damaged and where. This is why there is not any excessive growth of normal parts.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on April 03, 2012, 01:47:44 PM
Hi Irentat,

Good to see  you after a long time.

I went to Miami to meet Dr. Dunn for his IAGH treatment, but he told me that I should be non-weight bearing for 3 months while taking this HGH injections. I guess you followed his protocol, so you weren't on crutches for this 3 months duration.

Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 03, 2012, 04:11:34 PM
Ashok and you too.

knees for Dunn's protocol is to be off completely.  I was 2 months off and 5 months in a brace but could still walk but this is for ankles.  Again, remember Dunn is trying to do the most healing in the least amount of time with the least amount of shots.  I recovered my right ankle, which was just a bad, by just injections of GH and Test while walking on it normally.  It just required more over a longer period of time to get the same results.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: babind on April 05, 2012, 03:26:11 AM
Hi All, i'm new to this forum. sorry, if this post is not in right place.


i have problems in both knees,  in right from accident and surgeries and post surgeries complications.

Right Knee : Femorotibial compartmental osteoarthritis  Have lost patella to post surgery infection and have a muscle flap on knee from calf muscle using extensor mechanism. This was done to cover knee as post surgery the skin on top of knee became dead and could not heal and exposed knee joint.

Left Knee :

MRI of left knee says that "Thin medial parapatellar plica and scarring of the posterior medial meniscocapsular junction without associated meniscal tear of focally advanced cartilage loss.  I dont even understand much of what it means except that i have sharp pain around patella for some time. my pain was bad for 3 days but then it improved with some physical therapy. I had to stop physical therapy earlier as it was giving me continuous pain than relief on the advice of HSS doc. But even now have pain for some time every day.  I have to walk for about 1.5 to 2 miles every day as part of my commute.
The physical therapy is certainly not helping 100%


My current focus is on left knee which did not have any surgery or injury. the problem appeared because of overuse (at least that what doc at HSS, new york says) and i want to treat this knee first.

i have been following this forum with interest in cartilage regeneration.

my questions are
1. should i go to Dr Hauser(considering he is good) for prolotherapy + PRP/HGH , considering i'm on east cost and then have to fly or get it done somewhere here in NJ or NY.
2. i got a cost estimate from Dr hauser, it was 355 (approx) for prolo + 250 (new patient fee) + 400 for PRP and HGH.  Is this what guys here paid
3. if i fly to Dr Hauser clinic, will there be any downside of flying back same day assuming i have PRP e.g. will flying reduce effectiveness of PRP injections.?
4.  my fitness regime before pain in knees was only going for 2-3 miles of walk every day. Considering this, how much time should i give to knee exercises like walking or something like that as i can't bike because ROM of right knee is less than 90? 


also, thinking of talking to Dr Dunn to see if something can be done without surgery of left knee as can't afford to be on crutches for 3 or  more months

thanks,

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 05, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
I would suggest finding a prolotherapist near you.  I have seen Hauser's technique and consider it barbaric.  He is open to ideas but is still conservative.  There is more than one technique with prolo.  Someone close would probably get you just as good...or better help.

Read this thread and you will understand there is more than Hauser and Dunn.  Whatever you do, you won't need to be on crutches for months.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on April 05, 2012, 02:34:51 PM
I was a patient of Dr. Hauser. I was from New Jersey and use to fly to chicago monthly for his Prolotherapy/PRP/Bone Marrow injection almost for a year.
To be honest please dont go to him. I didnot find any relief by his methods or his prolo injections. I lost lot of money in flight travels/hotels + the treatment cost. I dont mind to fly anywhere to get good treatment but please dont go to him. Lots of his methods are questionable which I came to know recently and it doesn't work atleast on me.

If you want to try Prolotherapy/PRP, you can try to locate somebody near you.

I also went to Miami, to meet Dr. Dunn but he recommended me for a surgery and strict 3 months non-weight bearing protocol. At this point am not interested in undergoing another surgery and also flying to Miami for a weekly injection for about 12 weeks may not work for me because of the nature of my job. But Dr.Dunn has a proven track record I met some of his patients when I was there they are doing good with their ankle and knee problems.

Adding to that, last year in August 2011, I had a stem cell injection Regenexx-SD it helped a bit but not to the level of my expectations and still struggling with my right knee cartilage defect.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 05, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
I would suggest finding a prolotherapist near you.  I have seen Hauser's technique and consider it barbaric.  He is open to ideas but is still conservative.  There is more than one technique with prolo.  Someone close would probably get you just as good...or better help.

Read this thread and you will understand there is more than Hauser and Dunn.  Whatever you do, you won't need to be on crutches for months.

Hi, I've posted my own background story on a different forum you used to frequent detailing the products and modalities you used in various logs you wrote, so I won't go into it here.

I found this statement about Dr Hauser intriguing and was wondering why you felt that way? Not to be challenging or anything, I am just genuinely curious.

After having had about 100-200 prolotherapy injections in the UK using P2G as a proliferent, I decided to teach myself prolo. I've read a ton of papers, researched all the available books, dvds, etc. Studied anatomy and biomechanics for hours/days on end. Essentially I've been trying a lot of different modalities out on my self out of neccesity.

The reason I mention all this is because during this time I discovered that Hauser's method is in fact a complete beginners method of injecting. It differs from the more advanced methods (there are about six methods I know of at this point, and it varies per practitioner). Also although he calls it Hackett-Hemwell Prolotherapy, it is completely different from the techniques Dr Hackett taught in his books. The amount of injections he gives isn't too unusual (atleast based on his videos uploaded to caringmedical on youtube), however his technique is a bit strange for someone with so many years experience.

I would like to offer advice based on my experiences to the guys on here still in a lot of pain, but really before I write those things I would just say read through this thread and google Irentat's name and read some of his logs. Go to journalofprolotherapy.com and read everything. Those are good places to start, and just keep researching from there. Just read read read because there are people who have come back from what Dr's told them were hopeless situations. Start researching anatomy because you need to know what is going on inside and around your knee. MRI's and Ultrasound cannot tell you everything, especially if there are problems at the Enthesis. Most Drs I have come accross need to google their anatomy, they know where to look but don't know things off hand that they absolutely should (it is frightening to encounter an Orthopedic surgeon who does not know what the Arcuate ligament of the knee is).

Anyway good luck guys. Hope to hear your thoughts Irentat.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 07, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
Vexen,
Appreciate the reference.  I truly feel the need to expose people to other ideas and hopefully help a few go a different path.  Your idea of reading and learning is right on.  I have done my hours also and feel competent now with IA injections but not ligament manipulation yet.

Regarding Hauser, he seems to just "jab" and inject rather than subtlly appraching each ligament attachement site that is specific to the joint.  Very fast and can treat many people quickly plus it is easier to learn.

My prolotherapist has his own style he has developed over the years and agree with it.  He very specifically finds and "manipulates" (finely tapping over and over) on an attachment site with any number of proliferants.  Both the physical process of invading the attachment site as well as very specific amounts of proliferant being delivered at the same time creates faster healing, I feel.  His method is time consuming and he won't teach anyone because he does not want the liability.  Additionally, his IA injections will be any number of compounds and is open to new ideas I expose him to.  I feel his method of using testosterone in the joint is one of the best. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 08, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Cool stuff man, very interesting to read. I think Hauser's idea of comprehensively targeting all the affected areas is good, but I agree with your assessment in that he basically just has a set "product" a sort of repetetive procedure preparred for each joint (as an example, if you watch the three knee vids he's uploaded he'll do the same areas for all three patients using thr exact same method).

There's a lot of stuff out there and there is definately more than just Hauser/Dunn/Regenexx. Also even if you're getting "dextrose prolotherapy" or "P2G", there are so many more proliferants. I remember reading an article by a Dr working in the NFL. He stated that he re-grew the Ulna Collateral Ligament of a player that was 60% torn/ruptured using dextrose/rHGH/IGF-1 into the ligament. Good luck getting your average prolotherapist to give you a ligamentous injection using that proliferant.

Here's a really cool article on Testosterone Suspension and rHGH used at the enthesis of ligaments to repair them.
http://www.journalofprolotherapy.com/index.php/the-use-of-testosterone-and-growth-hormone-for-prolotherapy/

So actually these two substances can be used not just Intra-articulairly but also on ligaments and tendons as well, as their are receptors for these hormones/growth factors.

A lot of my research has shown me that although a lot of rely on the results of our Xrays/MRIs, and even in some cases Ultrasound, this imaging software/hardware will very often miss things. So although your MRI may reveal tendinopathy of the Patella ligament, Chondromalacia of the medial Patella, there may be five other structures that have now become chronically lax and are no longer trying to repair themselves. This may be one of the reasons your PRP shots/dextrose shots, etc didn't achieve the results you were expecting.

Another aspect may be related to healing deficit. As Irentat told us in this thread, it wasn't until many years after he suffered major injuries that he discovered he had Hemochromatosis, so there may always be underlying autoimmune problems. That aside there are also nutritional aspects, metabolic aspects to consider. Dr Marc Darrow gave some interesting seminars regarding this aimed at the general public.

Prolotherapy lecture (general useful info)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIiwtNrcUyM&feature=plcp&context=C4077321VDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu-gxu-r3nzMb6e4FHBYYDpM%3D

Pain and Inflamation lecture (good nutritional info in here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nln3_BSTkww&feature=plcp&context=C49ef0cbVDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu-DyVmu2zOP3dowVvmmf37k=

Fibromyalgia lecture (more nutritional and hormone based info)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl7MJJkZekg&feature=plcp&context=C485350cVDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu8FZK-7UEXshivOipLx_vZE=

So yeah there's a lot more that can be said about physical therapy, exercise, working on dynamic mobility, static flexibility, and overall metabolic recovery and how this can also improve healing. I could really go on and on here and keep adding info, but hopefully these are good places for people to start (hopefully lol).

Good luck to you guys that want to go further into these things, and just don't want to give up and get that TKR and just settle for less than that which they really want to achieve.

------------------------------------------------

Irentat,
regarding ligament injections, I've got a pretty decent amount of material at this point, and am willing/wanting to share it. Drop me a PM if you're interested in any of it, although by the sounds of it you're beyond the point of needing to do your own tendons/ligament injections, but I guess more learning material is never a bad thing really. Let me know what you think.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 08, 2012, 07:52:48 PM
Irentat,
sorry I havn't replied, been off the board for quite a while now. I didn't end up going to Phoenix yet for the testosterone treatments. My Doc in Calgary practices out of Arizona Prolotherapy in Scottsdale. I will keep everyone posted on my progress once I start. I will also be asking you numerous questions about the treatments. Once I get comfortable with my knowledge, I will start injecting myself with HGH and test, but for now, I will only depend on my doc. I have tri-compartmental osetoarthritis behind the knee cap, and dealing with an annoying tiny baker cyst in the back. I have been getting monthly Prolozone, hyaluronic acid, procaine and vitamin b12 shots for the last year. I had 8 loose bodies removed April last year. Since then the treatments have helped for the pain, but the underlying problem is still there, so I am ready for the next step. Also, my VMO has atrophied. My question for you Irentat is, will doing site injections in my VMO with test, igf or hgh help get back the lost muscle? I feel by having the strength back, I would have more support for the joint. Any info you could give me would help greatly, thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on April 09, 2012, 03:35:00 AM
Irentat, I was going through your post again on another forum and you have mentioned that you were taking mega dose of Vitamin C [3-5k] daily. Did that really help you with collagen repair ?
For how long you have been on this mega dose of vitamin C and did you had any side effects like stomach upset or something, just wanted to check...Thanks
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
Ashok,
Been on 3000 mg of Vit C for a few years now.  Knowing it is absolutely essential for collagen production, I am glad I take it and don't miss a day without swallowing a few pills of it.  Has it helped?  No idea but there is so much information on collagen and Vit C that you can make an assumption my recovery was helped by having the building blocks there.

Only side effect (none negative) is consistent regularity.  If constipated, just take 5000+ Vit C and you won't be any more. :D
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2012, 03:14:21 PM
Affliction,
The only injectable that I am aware of that site specifically buillds muscle is IGF.  Everything else noted impacts the whole body.  Don't see a reason not to try it but make sure and work out while taking it.  I could suggest other options but yours is worth a try.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 09, 2012, 03:57:39 PM
Irentat,
I workout very consistently still, although my workouts have completely changed for now. I was very reckless in my 20's in the weightroom. I was squatting 300 plus pounds. Now I'm lucky to do 150, and I don't want to push myself to the point where I re-injure my knee. You're story is very inspirational, as you went from hardly being able to walk to having your life back. I can relate to that somewhat. For a good two years, my knee was swelling up like a balloon every other day, due to arthritis and loose bodys from an injury sustained at work. Compensation finally helped me out last year, and scoped my knee. After that reading this thread, and doing the prolo treatments, I feel like one day, sooner than later, I can have my knee back to 100%. As for the AAS, from what I've read, some compounds will help: Anavar, Primo, Equipose, Deca. I did read however, that anything over 200mgs of test enan or cyp actually decreases collagen synthesis. But bear in mind that was intra-muscular, not intra-articular. I will have to do more reading on this. I'm swaying towards anavar with deca. I have used var before, and it is an amazing substance. No sides, and some studies have shown it helps with cartilage production to a point. I will look into the IGF some more, thanks for the info brother.

GB,
can we get an update from you. I want to know how the regenexx treatments have faired for you?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2012, 04:11:18 PM
Affliction,
Never tried Anavar because of the price.  Deca just is amazing but needs to be taken with testosterone.  150-200 mg of test and 300 mg of deca per week was all I needed for phenomenal and permanent results on my joints.  Test does not decrease collagen production.  High levels impacts the quality of collagen production however.  You would not be taking those levels anyway.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 09, 2012, 09:56:29 PM
Irentat,
Are you still going to Dr. Tallman? What kind of cost am I looking at to get the testosterone prolotherapy per treatment? Is there a consulation to see him, and does he need to see mri's or does he do guided injections?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2012, 10:02:36 PM
I go to Tallman intermittently as I have mostly taken over myself except for those areas I cannot reach such as the back.

It should be around $300 per visit as he will do more than a Test shot.  He will manipulate your ligaments and advise you do that.  First visit cost should be around $600.

He would like MRI's but does not absolutely need them.  No guided injections.  He knows what to do.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 09, 2012, 10:30:46 PM
Thanks for the info my friend! When you do the test and deca, I imagine you do the test in the joints, and inject the deca intra-muscular? I read that you use test sus (in water), don't quite understand the meaning of that, would test cyp in the joint suffice? Finally, are there videos out there to teach about IA style of shots, I cant seem to find any, or did you just learn by watching the prolo doc like I'm trying to do? Sorry for all the questions, but I want to be the next inspiration for everyone else.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 09, 2012, 11:19:31 PM
Test Cyp and Deca are for overall body recovery and will impact every joint so yes intra muscular.  The test suspension (water) is what should be used in the joint.  Don't put oils in the joint.

These are two different protocols and are not necessarily used together. 

I just watched my doc do the shots many times.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 10, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Irentat,
I am swaying towards IGF1 intra-articular in the knee. IGF1 is cheap, high potency, and easily accessible in Canada, so for me seems the best option. I may even be able to convince my doc to shoot it into my knee, as it is semi-legal in Canada, deemed as a research peptide. What is your opinion/experience with IGF1 ia?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 10, 2012, 11:16:09 PM
No experience with it but have done research on it and it will regrow cartilage.  Yes very cheap for what you get.  Advise trying it and letting us all know.  I have not used it because I am just about 100% recovered and don't see a benefit to changing my protocol this close to the end.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 11, 2012, 02:20:56 PM
Hey Affliction,

Make sure your source is actually good. Cheap chinese peptides are junk, and a lot of peptide websites claim to sell things and yet completely bomb when it comes to lab tests (as in there is no IGF-1 in the product that claims to have it).

PM me if you need a link to sites that sell legit American made peptides. They might be more expensive than some of the sites that claim to be selling it, but they're lab tested and legit so at least you're not putting god knows what into your joint.

EDIT:
Might as well add, test suspension's pretty inexpensive compared to HGH, and we know from Irentat's experience that it's fairly effective. Might be another alternative. Send me a mail, I already sent DVD footage of IA/ligament/tendon tutorials to Irentat. I'll send you one for the knee if you'd like. I read you had trouble finding a good how-to guide online. I got some stuff if you're interested?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 12, 2012, 10:06:14 PM
Hey Vexen,
thanks for the post and info. I'm having a hard time pm'ing people on here, I think you need to post 20 message at least until you can pm somebody on here, but yeah, I'm very interested in you sources and tutorial videos. Is there any way I can find you on another website and PM you. I'm in Canada, so it is tough to get the stuff over the border, but I have found a few good sources in Canada. Still intersested in talking with you though.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 13, 2012, 03:33:51 PM
Hi Affliction,

E-mail me at [email protected], I'll get back to you with my regular e-mail address.

You can get a hold of me on skype as well although I don't use it that much.
If you feel like using that instead just add; vexenaeyvil

Look foward to hearing from you.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 14, 2012, 08:19:00 AM
Well, I have set myself up for Stem Cell Therapy via Regenexx in early June.  They have an approved satellite facility in Oceanside, CA.  It's Health Link Medical.  I've already had my in-house consultation with Dr. Zinni, but I have to admit I'm cautiously optimistic.  Most of the posts I've read that shout the sccesses of Regenexx attribute it to MULTIPLE visits to the facility.  At nearly $7k a pop (all 3 shots), that's hella costly!  I make a decent living, but I'm not Donald Trump! 

As it stands, first visit involves 3 shots.  1) PRP 2) Stem Cell 3) Platelet Lysate.  All are given in one week's timespan and it is expected that you have at least 8 weeks off to achieve maximum results.  Also, one is to be non-weight bearing for 2 full weeks AND invest in knee unloading braces.  Those suckers aren't cheap, either. 

After reading much of irentat's responses, I am hopeful that if this doesn't work, then trips to Phoenix will.  If it's only $300 a shot (I'm guessing he's got a deal where it's something like $450 for both knees), I could see where going there once a month could be worth it.  Sure sounds better than $800 a pop ($1200 for both knees) that they charge for PRP here in Los Angeles.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 14, 2012, 03:21:35 PM
Flowride,
If you like spending a lot of money try regenexx first, but, start with prolo first, IMO. Irentat has had amazing results with his protocol.

Irentat,
I'm going to my doc today(he's seeing me on a weekend). Gonna see if he will do the igf1 injections. I'm pretty sure he won't do test suspension shots for me, because he is risking his practice if he did. Since the peptides are legal, I may be able to get him to do it. I can't find any info on the amount of igf1 to inject, do you have any suggestions?

Vexen,
Thanks for the email bro!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 15, 2012, 06:54:37 AM
Affliction,

I plan on contacting Irentat's prolo doc in AZ to discuss the possibilty on either Monday or Tuesday.  The question is, "How many injections did irentat do over the course of one year?"  More importantly, what would the cost be to do the HGH and Testosterone injections?  Depending on price and travel time, it may end up costing more.

As of now, I am set for Regenexx in June.  Problem with prolo here in Los Angeles is, again, that it's pricey.  $425 for one knee guided by ultrasound, $650 for both.  10 injections brings me to about the same price as Regenexx.  Also, the prolo doc I use only uses D50 and Lidocaine, maxed at 70/30 ratio of D50/Lido.  I've already done 7 sessions and can say that, while it has helped, it does not do the job 100%. 

Believe me, if it is cheaper and can yield the same results, I believe we'd all be for it.  I just don't know if that will be the case in my particular situation.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 15, 2012, 07:30:46 AM
Flowride,
I hope I didn't come across as arrogant, I apologize if I did. From my take, if you go to Arizona a few times for the treatment, the cost stays low and you can learn to do the injections yourself. Once you have got to this stage, test suspension is fairly cheap from the prices I have seen. More treatments for a fraction of the cost of prolotherapy. IMHO this is the first thing to try. If it doesn't pan out for me, I will make the trek down to grand cayman for regenexx c. My last resort is a 6 week stay in Malaysia to see Dr. Saw. All I know is that, only a few years ago, I had a pretty amazing life physically, and I will not rest until I have that back. Irentat's story is inspirational and gives hope to guys like me. I truly believe the human body can grow back its own cartilage, so I will not quit until I am 100% again. As for regenexx, if that is the first way you go, I wish you the best of luck and hope you have a speedy recovery.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 15, 2012, 12:08:29 PM
Affliction,
No idea on IGF amounts but do a google search and it will take you to many bodybuilding sites where many have used it to build muscle.  From there, you can get a good idea.

I also wish you well in your journey.  I would very much like to read of someone other than myself coming back from the brink.

On another note, I did not fully document all of my injections.  Additionally, it was also biased by my prolo treatment of the ligaments as well as my steroid and peptide use, all to the good I might add.  In the end, I would say that 30+ injections of GH, test, dextrose, etc. rebuilt my cartilage from 0 to normal.  I estimate normal as the pain has slowly gone away over the last 4 years to the point that I have no more daily pain at all.  In fact, I really don't have pain unless I do a lot of high impact sports.  I guess if I run a few miles they will also be sore the next day a little.  Still this is a hell of a change from not being able to walk a step without pain and limiting my walks to less than 50 yards at a time.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 15, 2012, 02:34:05 PM
Affliction,
No idea on IGF amounts but do a google search and it will take you to many bodybuilding sites where many have used it to build muscle.  From there, you can get a good idea.

I also wish you well in your journey.  I would very much like to read of someone other than myself coming back from the brink.

On another note, I did not fully document all of my injections.  Additionally, it was also biased by my prolo treatment of the ligaments as well as my steroid and peptide use, all to the good I might add.  In the end, I would say that 30+ injections of GH, test, dextrose, etc. rebuilt my cartilage from 0 to normal.  I estimate normal as the pain has slowly gone away over the last 4 years to the point that I have no more daily pain at all.  In fact, I really don't have pain unless I do a lot of high impact sports.  I guess if I run a few miles they will also be sore the next day a little.  Still this is a hell of a change from not being able to walk a step without pain and limiting my walks to less than 50 yards at a time.

So, if I am reading this correctly, you've essentially had 30 injections over the course of 4 years?  30 is a bit less of a number than I expected.  I've researched more while on my break last night & found a doc that does test injections here in LA (imagine that) at $75 a pop.  I will see what he charges for the prolo...might end up being a cheaper alternative.  He also does HGH.  Wow...what a surprise.

Affliction, NO, you don't come across as arrogant.  Like you, I had a great life, physically, just a few years ago.  Hell, my 40th birthday had me doing 545 lb squats for 4 REPS!  Like yourself, I don't want to rest until I exhaust every single option for cartilage regrowth.  I, however, don't think I've got the means that you do.  The first Regenexx injection is a pricey one.  If I need more, I'll be digging into an old 401k that I still have.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 15, 2012, 03:49:42 PM
That is approximate and that is per ankle.  Yea thinking about it, it's probably closer to 40 injections of everything.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 15, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
Hey Irentat,

By 40 are you talking about all ligament prolo sessions + IA injections per ankle? Or just IA injections? I remember reading in a previous log you used to do HGH+VitC+Dextose IA evert 3 days before switching to Test Suspension IA.

So assuming you've had full regrowth of cartilage, do you think the only remaining pain could be ligament based? Dr Thomas Ravin wrote a pretty good paper in his book about how ligament/tendon/cartilage pain and enthesopathy relate to one another. Often makes me wonder where the pain exactly comes from.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 15, 2012, 04:09:36 PM
We are talking IA injections only.

I think the relationship between liagment and cartilage pain as the cause are only vaguely known.  I believe they relate to one another I just don't know how.  I will be doing more prolo on my ligaments in the near future as I do feel slight twinges from them every so often.  Doesn't hurt to go in and do maintenance.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 15, 2012, 04:16:59 PM
Ah ok cool stuff. I'm gonna see if I can scan the article in for you sometime man. It's pretty insightful and explains the chemical process occurring at the fibro-osseus junction. Still I don't think there's really a complete theory out there till this day.

BTW ignore the first email I sent you just now, I forgot to add the link. Added it to the subsequent email.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 15, 2012, 04:31:01 PM
Flowride,
I hope I didn't come across as arrogant, I apologize if I did. From my take, if you go to Arizona a few times for the treatment, the cost stays low and you can learn to do the injections yourself. Once you have got to this stage, test suspension is fairly cheap from the prices I have seen. More treatments for a fraction of the cost of prolotherapy. IMHO this is the first thing to try. If it doesn't pan out for me, I will make the trek down to grand cayman for regenexx c. My last resort is a 6 week stay in Malaysia to see Dr. Saw. All I know is that, only a few years ago, I had a pretty amazing life physically, and I will not rest until I have that back. Irentat's story is inspirational and gives hope to guys like me. I truly believe the human body can grow back its own cartilage, so I will not quit until I am 100% again. As for regenexx, if that is the first way you go, I wish you the best of luck and hope you have a speedy recovery.

Affliction,

Don't worry, you didn't come across that way at all.  Thing is, I've done the prolo route, albeit the D50/Lidocaine way.  I've never done HGH or Test, though I wouldn't shun the idea.  If Irentat truly only did 30 injections, that's actually a lot less than I expected from reading his posts and it appears it could prove more affordable.  As for shooting up myself, I don't know if I could do that-which is strange because I have no problem drawing arterial blood as an RT every day of my working life.  I can stick others, but I can't stick myself!  Who knows, the Mrs. might be a bit more game.  She's an RN.

All I know is that I want to get better.  4 years ago I squatted 545 for 4 reps on my 40th birthday a...feat that needs to be matched again!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Mtnman2 on April 15, 2012, 09:13:14 PM
So, if I am reading this correctly, you've essentially had 30 injections over the course of 4 years?  30 is a bit less of a number than I expected.  I've researched more while on my break last night & found a doc that does test injections here in LA (imagine that) at $75 a pop.  I will see what he charges for the prolo...might end up being a cheaper alternative.  He also does HGH.  Wow...what a surprise.


flowride

I see that you have found Drs. in L.A. that can do test, hgh injections. I have been looking as well as calling around but without luck. Can you share with me your findings for I have done everything for my knees as well but with no positive results. I had contacted Irentat via e-mail awhile back and he has been more than helpful . Want to get back at my activities again as well .

Mtnman2
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 15, 2012, 09:50:25 PM
MtnMan,

I will say that I found their website while I was on my break last night at work.  I have NOT called them yet, but it is www.metromd.net.  I found their prices when looking up their HGH FAQ, which I believe is for their anti-aging regimen.  I am of the belief that IF they do test or HGH via prolo, the price to shoot you up will likely be higher.  They appear to also do bone marrow aspirate stem cells, but they are quite vague in their pricing, stating it could range anywhere from $5k to $17k. I'm sure they would be receptive to questions, but alas, today is Sunday they're likely closed.

If you are into the stem cell possibility at all, Health Link Medical Center does all of the Regenexx procedures and they're located in Oceanside, CA.  They are on the list of Regenexx approved physicians.  Saves a trip to CO if you're going that route, although a nice road trip never hurt anybody.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Mtnman2 on April 16, 2012, 04:36:09 PM
MtnMan,

I will say that I found their website while I was on my break last night at work.  I have NOT called them yet, but it is www.metromd.net.  I found their prices when looking up their HGH FAQ, which I believe is for their anti-aging regimen.  I am of the belief that IF they do test or HGH via prolo, the price to shoot you up will likely be higher.  They appear to also do bone marrow aspirate stem cells, but they are quite vague in their pricing, stating it could range anywhere from $5k to $17k. I'm sure they would be receptive to questions, but alas, today is Sunday they're likely closed.

If you are into the stem cell possibility at all, Health Link Medical Center does all of the Regenexx procedures and they're located in Oceanside, CA.  They are on the list of Regenexx approved physicians.  Saves a trip to CO if you're going that route, although a nice road trip never hurt anybody.


flowride

Thanks for the link; will contact them and keep the site updated. I am looking for a physician locally who will do test. injections directly to joint. ( most cost effective means of curing my knee at this time )




Mtnman2




Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 20, 2012, 01:25:00 AM
Irentat,
When you were doing just test suspension IA, did you have to use any kind of pct, or because it wasn't going into the muscles, then you didn't use a pct? Also the suspension that I can buy says 100ml 10ml. What does this mean? If 50mg per shot, then how many dosages will I get out of that vial? Thank you
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 20, 2012, 05:10:51 PM
Affliction,
Test suspension leaves the body in 8 hours so will not shut down your natural test production as oil-based injections will.  You will be able to get 20 shots out of your 100mg/ml vial.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: memoryzero on April 24, 2012, 01:34:27 AM
Hello everyone, new to this forum and I have read all 24 pages of this thread the last day and a half and all I can say is wow. This has provided me with so much insight on a topic I did not know hardly anything about but really needed to learn about. I'm hoping someone like irentat or GB otrany other veteran poster can give some more solid advice as they have provided so far (does GB not post anymore, his posts were great)

My story, basically I'm 34 and played college football and baseball and then professional baseball (over seas and independent league never big time lol) after college for about 6 years. I tore my meniscus at roughly 19 and had part of it removed and was fine for about 10 years and then after the grind of a lot of baseball games my right knee really started to hurt again. The final blow was playing in a flag football game in Fall of 08 out in AZ and that's when I knew something was really wrong. I researched some orthopedics's out there and picked one from the the Toca clinic in Phoenix and was told that I should have a microfracture surgery. This was in August of 2009 and I opted to have the surgery (which apparently was a success after much thought on whether or not I made the right decision) I wish I knew at the time of these different alternatives but hey what can you do. The surgery went well and I rehabbed and about 6 months later felt good, started playing softball and basketball again and it got progressively better. All of even up to 2011 my knee felt good, was playing competitive league basketball again and then suddenly last spring knee really started to hurt again. I was limping and having a hard time walking down steps etc.

I had since moved to Chicago and decided to go see an Ortho here and he suggested I have a scope to "clean up my knee" and then suggested I start to look into possible meniscal allograft transplantation with chondral resurfacing surgery as a next step which he says takes almost a full year to recover. This made me cringe because the micro fracture rehab took about 4-5 months.  Anyhow I had the scope done in January of this year and while my knee does feel better it still does not feel that great. My most recent MRI showed loss of chondral surfaces laterally as well as decreased size of the lower meniscus. My previous surgery (out in AZ) was a partial medial meniscectomy and micro fracture of my lateral femoral condyle.   

I have attached a summary of my most recent scope (that was done in January 2012) operation report below.

Procedure: Patient was brought into surgery and had there was no anterior or posterior or medial lateral laxity of either knee. Arthroscopy showed a normal medial meniscus and a normal anterior and posterior cruciate ligament. The lateral meniscus showed a remaining rim in its posterior 40% between 2 and 3 mm. The area of the previous micro fracture showed largely calcified fibro cartilage in an area measuring 15 X 20 mm. There was a full and partial thickness of defect of the femoral trochlea measuring 6 X 4 mm with its thickness defect of 3mm. This was debrided with the use of a rotary cutting instrument. The patella was grossly normal.

Sorry to ramble on but I want to be as specific as possible, now my question is I feel like I'm a perfect candidate for PRP or prolotherapy but which would I choose? And I'm Chicago now so I'm not far from Dr. Hauser but I did read some mixed reviews on here from some people. I do not think at this point I need to regrow and cartilage (which php does not do from what I can tell) so that is why I'm so intrigued by this. At this point I still can jog and play even pick up basketball but the next day have trouble walking up and down the stairs. I really do not want to have the cartilage transplant surgery as I guess it takes a year to recover and I really would like to stay active so any advice/treatment/insight that you could give me on Dr. Hauser or anything really would be much appreciated. Thank you all very much

Colin
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 24, 2012, 04:16:30 AM
Colin,
I am a bit confused how you say you do not need to regrow cartilage yet it clearly states you have a defect in your cartilage up to 3 mm thick.  This is all the way through. 

You read all of the pages so you understand that prolotherapy should involve an IA injection but prolo is a generic term and could be done with any number of proliferants. 

You have also read my responses over the years and how I have learned what does and does not work.  I think my latest posts pretty much state what I would recommend.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: memoryzero on April 24, 2012, 04:45:55 AM
Ok, thanks for the response. Does Dr. Hauser offer these options do you know? The confusion comes from me not completely understanding all of this and not being well versed in it (as many of you are on here) and literally stumbling across all of this online like 2 days ago so please excuse some of the dumb questions. So my chondral defect is in my lateral meniscus but I'm still able to perform athletically at a somewhat high level (what seems to be different then most on here as well) so that's why I was wondering if just prolotherapy shots would work alone but your saying that an IA injection should also be included in that regiment? If not that what other proliferants? His website says that this is a great option for torn meniscus and I never had any ligament damage like most on here so I'm optimistic but I also remember reading that you had some mixed reviews on him and his practice. Anyway thanks, I will re read some older posts as well.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 24, 2012, 06:14:17 AM
I realize that you are just starting out and I have years to develop my own theory and practical application that worked for me.  That is the rub:  it worked for me but cannot prove it will work for everyone.  However it seems from many technical and research sources that my application does work for most everyone.

You should be able to fill that cartilage hole in under a year and be good to go, if you have a regimented protocol of consistent IA injections.  This is based on my ankles being in a complete state of decay, from which doctors say you cannot recover.  Yours is nothing.  I am finishing up year 4 of my recovery and am just now getting fully athletically capable.  If I knew then what I know now, my recovery would probably be under 3 years.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: memoryzero on April 24, 2012, 06:44:18 PM
Ok, good info to know and makes me very optimistic. Do you know if Dr. Hauser does IA injections and is that expensive? I’m in Chicago and that would be very easy for me if he did.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 24, 2012, 06:58:23 PM
Heard Hauser does GH IA injections but at like 2 IU.  That is NOTHING!  Plus you have to see him every time you want one so probably $200+ per visit plus your time to get to him.  I would research others in Chicago before I go to him.  don't even know if Hauser does Test injections.  I would go to one you can work with as compared to one that throws a protocol on you.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: memoryzero on April 24, 2012, 08:25:38 PM
Ok, I have tried to find some others here in Chicago but don't see anyone else's name coming up. Is Hauser just not legit at this point?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 24, 2012, 08:33:20 PM
I would say he is legit.  He even wrote a book.  I just think his practices don't parallel my needs and what I know works.  I am sure his techniques work but how well?  I would trust my doc to do more in less visits based on what I know of Hauser and what I have seen my prolotherapist do.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 25, 2012, 12:12:20 AM
Hey Colin.

Basically from your arthro report you have no ligament laxity whatsoever, so your main issue is femoral hyaline cartilage and your lateral meniscus. These structures are located Intra-Articulairly. Basically all prolotherapy means is cell proliferation, in others words stimulating something to grow something new, or simply putting something new in there like a growth factor that attracts other growth factors and grows new tissue.

So Hauser always does IA injections using various things. From what I know he uses Dextrose/Sodium Morrhuate/Glucosamine/Zinc/Test/HGH and actually a bunch of other things too. So he will use a bunch of methods to regrow cartilage and actually he has regrown knees that were bone on bone there's a study on the journal of prolotherapy showing five case reports of people that went from bone on bone in both compartments back to whatever the standard is (I think it's about 4mm). Xrays and everything included.

Keep in mind though Ben's right, he does just throw protocals at you which means the caring part in caring medical is a little bit of an exageration because he will run the same drills on most people which means he is probably not to person specfic. But he obviously does get results if you look into all the case reports. Seeing as you only need IA injections and there's no disadvantage to doing so one appointment probably won't hurt. Try a consultation atleast because I seriously think it will beat surgery.

Heck I've even seen a study where they regrew hyaline cartilage in rabbits using only dextrose, vitamine c, and an amino acid complex. Very cheap stuff, very easy to do. There's a huge number of substances that have the potential to do the job. Add to the fact that you're athletic, you will probably respond quickly as athletes respond very fast from my experience and from all the research I've read.

Let us know what you choose to do and keep us up to date.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 25, 2012, 04:33:35 AM
I've spoken with one of his patients who posts on this board and from what I'm to understand, Hauser will shoot you up with just about anything you want.  The question becomes, "Will he use the right amounts?" 

I am wondering about the course of recovery outlined by Regenexx.  While I am going to a Regenexx approved MD, the recovery-I'm told-would be the same outline as if I'd planned my injections with Regenexx.  They are suggesting NON-WEIGHT BEARING for 2 weeks.  From what I can recall about stem cell therapy, they like having LOAD.  I'm not talking about dropping 405 on a squat rack and repping out, mind you, but what about stationary cycling...short walks?  I've been relegated simply to pool work for the first two weeks and pretty much thereafter, with an 8 week recovery regimen.  My concern is, without enough work, won't they just die?

I've also been thinking a great deal about the HGH/Testosterone regimen.  I am comfortable with the idea of using it for this specific purpose (have been dead set against steroids as a weightlifter), but also have questions on where the hell you get this stuff?!? 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on April 25, 2012, 05:05:25 AM
I had the Regenexx SD done back in Sept for my right knee. There has been some improvement. I also have had talks with Irentat and after a couple of months started injecting testosterone into my knee. So I can't account for how much improvement is attributable to Regenexx and testosterone or perhaps it is the combination. My left knee needs work too. Lack of cartilage under both knee caps. I found a prolo therapist 35 min away from my house who also does stem cell injections from fat as well as PRP. So I tried the fat stem cells out in my left. And I have been injecting testosterone into that knee as well. It has only been 5 weeks since the fat stem cell injection and today I got PRP injected into that knee. Tomorrow I will hit it with the testosterone.

The challenge with all this stuff is nobody has a definite time line you can rely on in terms of how long it will take to grow enough cells that will give you significant improvement. We all have varying circumstances. Now of the practitioners seem to have a set recommendation for what is the optimal amount of loading to stimulate the cartilage growth. I always error on the side on not loading too much actively, but rely on lots of passive motion. So riding a stationary bike with little to no resistance would probably be fine. Compression also is how cartilage receives its nutrition and gets stimulated, so you could try isometrics at various joint angles, gradually increasing the load compression over time.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 25, 2012, 05:19:10 AM
I found a prolo therapist 35 min away from my house who also does stem cell injections from fat as well as PRP. So I tried the fat stem cells out in my left. And I have been injecting testosterone into that knee as well. It has only been 5 weeks since the fat stem cell injection and today I got PRP injected into that knee. Tomorrow I will hit it with the testosterone.

Question: If you don't mind, where are you located that you've found a prolo doing fat derived stem cell injections?  Also, what does he charge for that procedure, as well as the testosterone injections?  Unfortunately, I have yet to find an MD in L.A. who will do the testosterone/HGH injections.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 25, 2012, 03:58:06 PM
Irentat,
Maybe I missed it on the thread, but I was wondering what size syringe I would need to use to inject the test suspension into my knee?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 25, 2012, 04:04:54 PM
Hey Affliction,

One link I sent you before said a 25G 1.5" needle. I've used a 27G 1.5" and a 23G 3" needle. 1.5" should be the minimum for the knee I reckon anyway. Maybe you'd need a larger guage because test will probably clog the needle.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: ashok_guru on April 25, 2012, 08:32:51 PM
Affliction79, Are you planning inject Test by yourself into your knee ?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on April 25, 2012, 09:00:44 PM
Hey Flowride

Her name is Donna Alderman, http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm. She has one office in Nor Cal and one down south in Valencia. She has been doing prolo for about 20 years, knows Dr. Hauser quite well. I sent her the prolo articles regarding gh and test (I got them from Irentat). When I asked if she would consider incorporating gh or test in her practice she said she is always willing to add something provided there has been research or empirical evidence to warrant its use. She currently feels that PRP and stem cells have a stronger cell signaling ability because they are our own cells and that the test and gh would not have that ability. But I think I read somewhere that they in fact might have some cell signalling function.

The version of fat stem cell protocol that she uses is to take out about 1 tablespoon of fat, let it decant, then mix it with the prp. Then she irritates the area of concern with a needle and procaine, followed by injecting the fat prp mixture. I had a fat derived stem cell treatment back in Dec of 2010 from David Steenblock (http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm). This was much different. I am lean to begin with so I had to drink 2 pints of cream a day to gain about 25 lbs so they would have something to extract. They got 40cc of fat, but hoped for 60cc. This got processed and the finished product was mixed with prp. I didn't get any change from that treatment. If you read the Regenexx site they feel the bone marrow derived stem cells are the best suited for morphing into cartilage and that it is not all about the number of cells you inject. The practitioners who support the fat derived stem cell procedures do so because fat is supposed to have many more stem cells. Google Timothy Peace, Terry Grossman.

The cost of the fat stem cell + prp was 3000. Regenexx is about 6-8K. When I did Regenexx I had to be in Colorado for 8 days. So driving only 35 minutes and not having hotel/plane expenses made me want to give it a try. When I did just the prp yesterday that was 885. She also uses ultra sound guidance. If you go to see her find out when Randy is there. He is an MD friend of hers that helps her out with the ultra sound. He is a whiz with the ultrasound. He gets the right view and she injects. I considered that combo to be a bonus.

You would probably be better learning to inject your own testosterone. It will be much much cheaper. The growth hormone is pretty expensive so on Irentat's advice I went with the test. Get some good anatomy books too. I use a 22 gauge needle to prevent clogging. If you mix a little methylcobolamin  (vit b-12) with the test in the syringe it reduces the viscosity. I am sure if someone were to offer classes in how to inject you own knee there would be many people from this site that would sign up.

Bryan

I though I would give Dr. Alderman's approach a shot. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 26, 2012, 05:51:33 AM
Hey Flowride

Her name is Donna Alderman, http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm. She has one office in Nor Cal and one down south in Valencia. She has been doing prolo for about 20 years, knows Dr. Hauser quite well. I sent her the prolo articles regarding gh and test (I got them from Irentat). When I asked if she would consider incorporating gh or test in her practice she said she is always willing to add something provided there has been research or empirical evidence to warrant its use. She currently feels that PRP and stem cells have a stronger cell signaling ability because they are our own cells and that the test and gh would not have that ability. But I think I read somewhere that they in fact might have some cell signalling function.

The version of fat stem cell protocol that she uses is to take out about 1 tablespoon of fat, let it decant, then mix it with the prp. Then she irritates the area of concern with a needle and procaine, followed by injecting the fat prp mixture. I had a fat derived stem cell treatment back in Dec of 2010 from David Steenblock (http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm). This was much different. I am lean to begin with so I had to drink 2 pints of cream a day to gain about 25 lbs so they would have something to extract. They got 40cc of fat, but hoped for 60cc. This got processed and the finished product was mixed with prp. I didn't get any change from that treatment. If you read the Regenexx site they feel the bone marrow derived stem cells are the best suited for morphing into cartilage and that it is not all about the number of cells you inject. The practitioners who support the fat derived stem cell procedures do so because fat is supposed to have many more stem cells. Google Timothy Peace, Terry Grossman.

The cost of the fat stem cell + prp was 3000. Regenexx is about 6-8K. When I did Regenexx I had to be in Colorado for 8 days. So driving only 35 minutes and not having hotel/plane expenses made me want to give it a try. When I did just the prp yesterday that was 885. She also uses ultra sound guidance. If you go to see her find out when Randy is there. He is an MD friend of hers that helps her out with the ultra sound. He is a whiz with the ultrasound. He gets the right view and she injects. I considered that combo to be a bonus.

You would probably be better learning to inject your own testosterone. It will be much much cheaper. The growth hormone is pretty expensive so on Irentat's advice I went with the test. Get some good anatomy books too. I use a 22 gauge needle to prevent clogging. If you mix a little methylcobolamin  (vit b-12) with the test in the syringe it reduces the viscosity. I am sure if someone were to offer classes in how to inject you own knee there would be many people from this site that would sign up.

Bryan

I though I would give Dr. Alderman's approach a shot. Only time will tell.

Bryan,

Thank you VERY much for the info.  As for the anatomy books...either me or my wife should have them.  We're both in the medical field, just not MD's.  I might have to talk with your doc, in addition to the folks at Regenexx.  At the very least, it's another option and much like yourself with a NorCal location, Valencia is only about 20-30 mins from my house.  $800 or so seems to be about the going rate in CA for PRP.  Other areas of the country, it seems to be less.  My prolo doc charges about the same.

I've read the articles supporting marrow vs. adipose, but there is information coming at you in both directions that I feel we're almost on overload trying to figure out which is actually the best choice.  My biggest fear is wasting my time, engergy, and money, only to face the knife and reality of a PKR/TKR and the subsequent lifestyle change one would incur as a result. 

In any event, I wish you continued success with your treatment. 

Mike
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on April 26, 2012, 01:36:23 PM
Hi Mike

Glad to help. You are right too much conflicting info out there. We can only go by our experiences as to what does and doesn't work. I know the Regenexx has helped. It will take multiple treatments though. I am interested to see how Alderman's use of fat stem cells turns out.

If you go to the articular cartilage repair section on knee guru you will find a stem cell section. It has a ton of posts about different stem cells clinics (like Regenexx) and patient experiences. Google Dr. Saw, here is a link http://www.klsmc.com/component/content/article/7-english-news/99-the-star-online-generating-new-cartilage.html. He really seems to have the best approach to date. Keep us updated on your progress.

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 26, 2012, 05:24:17 PM
Hey Ashok,
Yes I am planning to do my own injections soon. I have been studying video, and watching my prolotherapist. I'm running a cycle of anavar/t3/clen, to help get my body back in order first. Looking to do my first injection by July. Will definitely keep you and everyone else posted.

Irentat,
got an email from Vexen today, he was saying how the test suspension can sting pretty good going in. What are your experiences with that? Would I be better of adding sterile water or fit B12?

To everyone reading and participating in this thread, realize, what we are experimenting with is groundbreaking, and anyone brave enough to go ahead with these protocols is a pioneer. Just make sure you are thorough in all your knowledge and techniques. Ask many questions and be well versed. Good luck everyone!
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on April 26, 2012, 07:53:04 PM
Hey Affliction

Where did you get the videos for injecting? I would be interested in obtaining them.

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on April 26, 2012, 07:54:38 PM
Affliction

How much testosterone do you plan on injecting and how often?

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on April 28, 2012, 09:32:36 AM
Hey fast
If you ask vexen nicely, he could send you the link for the torrent to download. You can also email me at [email protected] if you like. When I start doing mine, I will start videotaping my sessions to show others for assistance. As for the test, I'm gonna inject 50ml every 5 days. The most important thing to know is the anatomy of the joint, and also to pinpoint where your problem areas are. It's best to get an mri if you can, if not, go to the area of the joint with the most pain. By studying my prolo doc's injections, I have found the areas that I feel works and the areas that don't. You guys down in the United States are lucky as in the fact there are prolo docs that will inject test, but unfortunately here in Canada, it's against the law without a prescription, and even then I don't know any promo doc that would be willing to use it off label. My opinion though is you would be better off asking Irentat, as he has the most experience on here doing these injections, where I havnt started yet, and wouldn't want to give you the wrong advice. Good luck!

Affliction,

There are a few people I'd love to actually talk with on here.  You and irentat are two of them.  I've spoken with Rob Wilson, who gave the Regenexx procedure good reviews, but the only problem is that I'm likely looking at 2-3 treatments.  The left knee might not need that much, but the right one will.  Well, at least I have a decent 401k and a couple of spare vehicles to sell if need be!  In any event, my email is [email protected]  If you've got that vid, I'd be extremely grateful if you shared it. 

 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: vexen on April 28, 2012, 11:47:59 AM
Hi flowride,

I can set you up with the vids, just drop me a mail. Should probably keep the circle small as possible as I might get in trouble sooner or later for uploading them, lol.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Affliction79 on April 28, 2012, 10:46:23 PM
Flowride,
Vexen is probably right, get in touch with him, or I'm sure he has probably contacted you by now via email. I will get in touch with you as well. Good to start a circle of friends to help each other out. I'll send you some interesting links I have, in the meantime, study your prolotherapist like a hawk. Ask him a million questions, and even tell him you are considering your own injections, as he may be able to give you good advice. Just an update on my progress: Once a month injections of b12, hyaluronic acid, and ozone. Hack squatted 200lbs for 3 sets 10 reps, very proud of that since a year ago was lucky if I could do 100lbs. Starting a var/clen/t3 cycle to get my muscles kick started for summer. Have tentatively set my first injection of test suspension in my knee on July 23. The next twelve weeks gives me time to learn some more and build the courage to go through with this. Hard to believe 2 years ago at 30 years old I was considering a partial knee replacement.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on April 30, 2012, 01:05:13 PM
Affliction,
There should be no pain with injection of Testosterone Suspension into the joint at the volume you are considering.  The only thing I experienced is after a few weeks of multiple injections per week, the joint starts to get irritated.  I assume this is from the preservative.  If I take a few weeks off, the issue goes away.  I would like to know how it goes for you.

Additionally, I use a 22g needle as they dont plug but don't use B-12 but others do and seem to have no issue.  I don't because my prolotherapist says B-12 is not pure enought to inject directly into the joint.  I think he is a little too cautious there but don't see at this point where the B-12 will benefit me.

Send me a PM and we can start talking.  Glad to do so.

On a general note, I started doing this so that I can just keep living my life and not be held up while my joints are rebuilding.  Dunn gave me great success and respect his philosophy but it doesn't mix with someone wanting to get on with life.  What I have done is proven, for me, to work and allows me to keep going.  I have to agree with Fast that a protocol that includes some rehab is essential ultimately leading to lifting. 
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: flowride on May 02, 2012, 10:54:49 AM
Flowride,
Vexen is probably right, get in touch with him, or I'm sure he has probably contacted you by now via email. I will get in touch with you as well. Good to start a circle of friends to help each other out. I'll send you some interesting links I have, in the meantime, study your prolotherapist like a hawk. Ask him a million questions, and even tell him you are considering your own injections, as he may be able to give you good advice. Just an update on my progress: Once a month injections of b12, hyaluronic acid, and ozone. Hack squatted 200lbs for 3 sets 10 reps, very proud of that since a year ago was lucky if I could do 100lbs. Starting a var/clen/t3 cycle to get my muscles kick started for summer. Have tentatively set my first injection of test suspension in my knee on July 23. The next twelve weeks gives me time to learn some more and build the courage to go through with this. Hard to believe 2 years ago at 30 years old I was considering a partial knee replacement.

Affliction,

A couple things.  First, the hack squat may not be the exercise you want to be doing with knee issues.  It's an akward angle and, quite plainly, it puts more stress on your knees than your good old fashioned back squat.  If you've ever heard of the box squat, it might be something you want to employ, as there are many benefits to it.  First and foremost, it commands proper form by making you drive through your heels to bring the weight up.  It also brings your hams and glutes into play.  All of these things will help alleviate pressure on your knees.  Added bonus: it will also help increase your deadlift.  I would, however, be avoiding leg extensions, hack squats, etc.  If you want decent hamstrings to accentuate your squat, try stiff legged deadlifts with light to moderate weight...whatever the knees will allow.  Also, avoid the Smith Press.  Squat free.
Title: HGH regenerated my osteochondral defects
Post by: Honeybunch on May 11, 2012, 04:47:43 AM
Hi everyone!

Human Growth Hormone fixed my articular cartilage tears. PRP didn't.
Original trauma 8-9 months ago, i had a cm osteochondral lesion on the weight bearing surface of my mfc, and a .5cm lesion on medial patella and now 8 weeks after my 3 injections the MRI shows no sign of anything wrong with my knee. I had the 3 injections within 8 days with little weight bearing for 2 weeks.

It isn't 100% yet, but my pain is ALL gone (if it hurts, it resolves within a minute) I just got my full range of motion back, and I am able to exercise to build up my muscles again! Will go for another round ASAP to hopefully achieve 100%. I was REALLY screwed up before.

If anyone wanted more proof that it works.. msg me if u need info
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: garethday on May 11, 2012, 09:37:25 AM
Honeybunch,  How can I contact you?

[email protected]
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 11, 2012, 02:27:44 PM
Honey,
I am very glad to hear this as it helps prove to me this concept works.  Congratulations and I hope you are 100% quickly.

Any additional details you want to give here on the board?
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: Allscarredup on May 12, 2012, 12:43:48 AM
Just checking in.

So far this is my experience:

In April I did two GH shots, each one week apart. Each shot was 7.5IU. I felt great. After three weeks I felt good enough to deadlift again and pulled quite a bit of weight after not being able to use my legs to lift for three years.

The very same day, however, the pain all returned even worse. I was having trouble just walking through the grocery store. You have to give this stuff some time without testing it. As an athlete, that's the hardest thing in the WORLD to do. Is it better today? Today? TODAY?

I have done four more shots since then in the last four weeks. 15IU, 7.5IU, 7.5IU, 15IU. The knee doesn't feel quite as bulletproof as the first time, but it's noticeable.

I tried Test as well, but I had oil-based product, and that swelled my knee up immensely. Switching to water.

My only issues so far have been affording product, knowing for sure the needle go into the IA space and didn't deliver into fat pad or other tissue, and reconstitution of GH. Sometimes the pressure differential causes the bacteriostatic water to shoot out of the needle when reconstituting, and I've directly sprayed the tablet several times, much to my chagrin, and possibly resulting in worse results for my second go-round.

I use 23G 1.5in needle for going into the knee lateral to the patellar tendon, and I use a 25G 1in needle for going directly under the kneecap itself.
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: irentat on May 12, 2012, 01:40:19 AM
For GH try some 30g 1" needles.  Talk about painless!

Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: fastglycolytic on May 12, 2012, 02:26:30 AM
Honeybunch

Did you do the injections yourself? If not whom did you see and where are they located. How many IUs were used in each shot?

If you did the injections yourself how much did the GH cost, which manufacturer did you use, and where did you get it from?


Allscarred up

If you could provide answers to the above questions that would be great, except for the IUs since you already gave those.

Thanks,

Bryan
Title: Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
Post by: The KNEEguru on May 12, 2012, 10:46:08 AM
Hi
I have been alerted to this thread by worried readers, and I have decided that it is best that I put a stop to it. If weightlifters want to risk damaging their knees by self-injecting substances that is up to them, but such practices are not condoned by the KNEEguru owner or the mods.
KNEEguru