KNEEtalk

The OSTEOARTHRITIS DEPARTMENT => KNEE ARTHRITIS - Exercise => Topic started by: north_north_west on January 04, 2008, 05:30:22 PM

Title: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: north_north_west on January 04, 2008, 05:30:22 PM
Greetings all,

Perhaps this is the right area to ask this question.

I was recently diagnosed with 'advanced osteoarthritis of the medial compartment' of my left knee after a summer of pain which finally drove me to a Dr.  They also found a complex tear in the medial meniscus.

After physical therapy and a series of Supartz shots varying from painless to excruciating, I am feeling much better and would like to start running again (previously, I'd been a 20 mile per week runner for about 20 years). When I ask the Drs about it, they say something like 'It may not be the right exercise for you' or 'they wouldn't recommend it' but fall short of saying I absolutely shouldn't. 

I looked it up in the medical journals, and havent found anything saying that running exacerbates OA.  The only stuff I found was that its role in causing OA was kind of questionable.

Does anyone have any experience with running with OA, or what the conventional medical wisdom is on this?  What have your various Drs said about it?

Thanks
Dave

Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: jathib on January 04, 2008, 06:23:10 PM
I don't think you'll find a doctor anywhere that will tell you running on a damaged knee is not going to cause faster degeneration. I certainly don't know of any. If it's bad for good knees it's certainly going to be bad for bad knees.  I know you'd like somebody to tell you it's okay but you won't find any. You'll certainly find people that will do it anyway. Maybe nobody has done a study because it's a no-brainer. How did you get OA and a torn meniscus in the first place? It's quite possible that it was caused by 20 years of running. I'm quite certain that years of swimming have caused degenerative problems in my shoulders. But, alas, I'm going to continue anyway knowing full well that there will come a time that I won't be able to do it anymore. At least my heart and lungs will love me.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: UK Girl ! on January 04, 2008, 08:30:09 PM
yes I do - stupidly - at 43 I had a TKR!!!!

Running puts enourmous stress on your body right up to the neck - all that pounding!!!

swim !!
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: north_north_west on January 04, 2008, 08:40:36 PM
Actually, there is evidence that running is good for good knees, OA-wise. 

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/6/342



Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: jathib on January 04, 2008, 08:55:42 PM
Hey, if you really believe that then why not just go for it?
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Nettan on January 04, 2008, 09:09:48 PM
I would never ruin a good functional knee with running if I already have problems in there and especially when your OS is telling you to not run.
But if this study seems to give all answers, why not go ahead...all you can get is a worse knee !!
I would never risk my knees, if I could walk.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: UK Girl ! on January 04, 2008, 10:09:16 PM
ya know what - I was stupid continuing with running not finding out about the risk of what damage I could cause - but to be well informed and still take the risk is totally irresponsible!

your knees! - when you need them replacing you will be thinking differently !
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: rozzzie on January 10, 2008, 02:36:05 PM
If your knees are perfectly aligned, and in good shape. "sports injuries often occur as a result of dysfunctions in balance or the musculoskeletal system operating in nonneutral mechanics" Your OA may be a result of your knees not being aligned properly. "Human studies show an increase in radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis in endurance sports athletes, but no related increase in symptoms reported"  The amount of OA is not always related to the amount of pain.  I ran and did karate for years and have recently had TKRs.  According to my husband who as a Masters of Edcuation in PE and other areas; there are only a few people who are really built for running .

If you decide to run stop if your knees hurt and don't start again.

Good luck

Rozzzie

The quotes are fromm the first paragraph of the article you gave the link to.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: kathat on January 11, 2008, 09:03:15 AM
From what I can gather, the article mentions running as not increasing the risk of OA occurring in an otherwise healthy joint, rather than being good for OA once established. Once OA has begun, the joint cartilage loses it's ability to cushion the joint properly (part of the disease process) so running has a much more negative impact on a joint with OA. If knees are healthy then MODERATE running is a good exercise to keep the knee joints healthy, but once injured then running is pretty much going to cause further damage at a faster rate than most other forms of exercise, and the article implies as much in it's conclusion (that a history of injury is more likely to cause OA or disability). Very few doctors or therapists will come out and tell you outright not to do something, as their job is only to advise, so the suggestion that running is probably not right for you is basically their way of telling you that you shouldn't be doing it. If you ask a more direct question then you may get a more direct answer - so ask if running is something you should avoid, or ask if running is likely to cause more rapid joint deterioration, and see what answer you get. I don't mean to be so down on your favourite activity, but you are risking a lot if you choose to run against medical advise. TKRs don't last as long in younger people and you could face a future of TKRs and endless revisions, when instead you could modify your activity now and keep active for a lot longer (just in a different way). Think long and hard and get lots of advise before continuing running.

Kathy
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: north_north_west on January 11, 2008, 06:49:14 PM
Thanks for all your input.  Kathy, I did understand what the Drs were saying, I just didn't like it.

For those who have TKR, can you run on those?  Just looking to the (hopefully distant) future...

Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: jathib on January 11, 2008, 07:42:36 PM
You can run on a TKR if you want to destroy it, otherwise you will be told that high impact sports are out of the picture forever. The purpose of a TKR is to relieve pain and allow normal activities. It is not designed to return you to high impact sports. Don't bother having the surgery if you're planning to keep running.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: UK Girl ! on January 11, 2008, 08:58:41 PM
my os was quite explicit

gym work
doubles tennis
swimming
walking

thats about it - not even jogging on treadmill

all low impact
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: kathat on January 11, 2008, 09:47:17 PM
Considering that just the extra many thousand steps a younger person takes in the course of their daily lives causes their TKRs to deteriorate quicker, I would steer clear of any running and baby that sucker for all it's worth (once you have one). Revision is not a light undertaking! I know it sucks to have to give up a favourite activity - been there, done that - but I really wouldn't want to be stuck in a wheelchair just when I'm retiring because no further TKR revisions are possible. You'll find something you enjoy doing instead of running. I have discovered things I never would have thought I'd enjoy because I was forced to slow down and rethink my activities. Grieve for your loss and move on, so you don't become bitter and resentful. Good luck in finding something new to do. I dare you to try something REALLY different (eg I played wheelchair basketball when I had to give up tennis. I chose it because I worked with spinal injured patients and knew some other people who played. Anybody could play, wheelchair bound or not. It was a hoot, and a great talking point). Take care.

Kathy
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: jathib on January 12, 2008, 01:20:26 AM
Mountain biking is a great alternate activity if you want some fun. My doctor told me it was okay after my PKR. All I have to do is make sure I don't push too hard. I stick to easy trails and if it's too steep I just walk. It's great for an outing in the woods and an excellent way to exercise.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on February 28, 2008, 03:22:15 AM
Hey there...i was also a runner....recreational like 5 miles 3 times a week. I loved running and wish that i could run again but after microfracture i was forced to stop running. Like everyone was saying i did find other forms of cardio (elliptical and bike) to take its place. Of course as a runner it is never the same. It's been about 2 years since my surgery and i have good and bad days. If you still have enough cartlige and all else is intact you can still run but with added precautions....change to running on a treadmill for less impact...and evaluate any bio-mechanical issues and most important keep the weight down which was my biggest problem and still is. I lifted weights and got bigger which puts more impact on joints.It's unfortunate that some of us are genetically inclined to degenerate faster than others who are out there running at 90. For now, i pray that technology will someday fix knee issues to a point where running 2-3 miles will be allowed at minimal risk....good luck
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: north_north_west on March 03, 2008, 05:06:03 PM
Thanks for all of your input, again.  I have taken up gym-type activities (elliptical, bike machine, leading to a real bike when the weather clears) after it sort of felt that while I could (kind of) run, it really wasn't good for me.  I felt it for three days afterwards.

I do notice that these excercises are much easier on your body than running - I have no problem doing them every day.  But still, it is disappointing to be 'exercising' rather than running.  But progess seems to be continually being made, and I am hopeful that there will be some new treatments for this eventually solve this issue.

On another note, I had Supartz shots back in December-January, and I am not sure if it did any good at all.  Today, for example, is not a particularly good day.

Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: marksetg0 on May 02, 2008, 02:33:46 AM
This thread goes back a while, but I just read it. I'm 56 years old and have been a runner for 30 plus years. Knee pain forced me to stop eight months ago. I finally saw a doctor who diagnosed ostoarthritis. I recently was fitted for an unloader brace. I know I'm not supposed to, but I run with the brace. I can tell you that I am completly pain free. I will continue to run on the brace and to hell with the future.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on June 16, 2008, 02:46:35 AM
At this point in your life.....after 30 years of running....i guess anyone else would feel the same way and go for it. You should however take measures to protect and go easy on them to maximize your longevity of your running. I just wish i knew what i know now.....i would still be running but a lot smarter for sure. Surgery changes everything.....
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: UK Girl ! on June 21, 2008, 12:32:20 PM
marksetgo0

see ya here when you have a new knee then! - cannot believe you dont wanna look after that knee - trust me when you get to the pain you get when u need a tkr you will wish you had taken the advice ! - and the pain post op is also another huge hurdle !
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: 60schld on July 28, 2008, 10:35:23 PM
I ran long distance ( and loved it!) for 29 years.  In 2006, it became too painful (worn or torn lateral
meniscus) and my OA is very mild.  The day I got that diagnosis, I walked out of my OS's office and
switched to swimming.  Knee replacements scare me and are definitely the last resort.  If you get there
remember, they will shave, grind or whatever, the ends of the two leg bones to fit this prothesis-- there
will be NO GOING BACK!  Your bones will never be the same.  People who do this, usually have a hard
time walking 10 steps!!  For them this is a GREAT improvement.  You are only worried about your
exercise, training.  Better start thinking about living pain free!! I don't know how old you are, but we
all get there (if we are lucky) someday and your knees will thank you!   Having read more of this post
I just want to add that no matter what exercise you do, keep your knees in mind.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Quinkin on August 11, 2008, 10:22:56 AM
The old saying goes use it or lose it.

If you don't keep your quads and glutes strong with some form of exercise your knees will not thank you. Walking, cycling, and running are exercises that strengthen muscles, gets the blood flowing into the joints, gets healing endorphins pumping around the system. 

I've had a maltracking patella for 3 years due to biomechanical deficiencies. Finally I got these issues sotred with cusotm made orthotics, knee taping, stretches and exercises. My quads are getting strong. I will get my quads strong and then see what is possble.

Apparently I have early osteoarthritis. What 45 year doesn't have some wear and tear?

Becoming an overweight slob and going away to lie and die in a corner, because, woe is me, I have some osteoarthritis is not for me.

No I'm going to continue to work my butt off getting my muscles strong by waliking, cycling, swimming, running, pool running. When I had difficulty wlaking I taught myself to swim.

I ran 17km this week, and cylcled 40 kilometres, I raced 5km kilometres with no pain. I ran 6km in 27:17 with no pain. I've done nealry two hours physio every day for two years.  The more I exercise the stronger I get the less pain I feel.

I swear by McConnell taping and exercises. My physio said I would be able to run up to 5km. I know that if I continue to work hard I WILL be able to do more.

Whatever you do keep fighting, never give up.

See you at the start line.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: thevoice on August 11, 2008, 05:23:40 PM
good on you mate, keep up the active lifestyle, its refreshing to hear people making the most of things and not letting things get in the way.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: RunningMan on November 01, 2009, 03:02:26 AM
You know, there are very reliable studies that show running does not cause arthritis.

If a runner of 30 years finally develops arthritis, many of you blame it on the running.

What about the person who had never run, yet remains fit, and still develops arthritis.

What do you blame it on then? You simply can't say that just because someone runs and gets arthritis later in life that the two were related.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: runlolarun on December 04, 2009, 02:14:28 PM
Hi,

I'm with Quinkin and RunningMan.  I have osteoarthritis in my right knee, and I run about 20 miles per week, without any problems.  I also do lots of core, quad, adductor and abductor strengthening exercises, and I've started to have prolotherapy and PRP injections (see long thread under "Injections to the Joint," where people have posted their PRP/prolo experiences.).  My arthritis is probably due to several bad injuries I had in my 20s, and may also be genetic (my father had it).

When my sports dr. first diagnosed the arthritis (in 2006), he told me I could continue to run, just not long distances.  He suggested I try triathlons, which I did.  During 2007 and 2008, i did several sprint tris.  Oddly, I found my knees felt better when I ran than when I biked, so since then I've pretty much kept to a running schedule. 

I know all the incendiary press about arthritis and running.  I also know that, as RunningMan says, there have been a lot of recent studies saying that running does not cause arthritis.  Apparently there are also recent findings that say that running does not even *worsen* arthritis in those who have it.  My dr. told me of a study which followed a number of people, runners and nonrunners, over a 10 year period.  People developed arthritis randomly, but the odd thing was, in the runners, there was no change in the arthritis over the period, while in the nonrunners it got worse.  Ok, this is hearsay...I don't know and haven't read the study.  But my own experience leads me to have some faith in it. 

One last note.  My father, as I said above, had arthritis in both knees so bad that he couldn't even straighten them.  Man walked permanently bent kneed.  He "treated" it by wearing a copper bracelet.  He played singles tennis extremely well and with no pain until he had a heart attack (the heart attack took him out of commission for a while, and then he played doubles).  So, as Quinkin says "use it or lose it." 

I guess my point is: do your own cost/benefit analysis and figure out what's important to you.  If running is important to you (it is to me, it is pretty much the only thing that keeps me sane), then find out what you need to know to keep going. 
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: mmrocker13 on December 09, 2009, 05:53:20 PM
Find out how big your lesions are, and if there's any way to treat them. Get a surgeon who works with runners.

I ran for years and years on lateral compartment OA. Everyone's case is different, and I'd get a few opinions before you hang up your shoes. I am headed for a DFO this winter, and will probably run limited mileage after that, once it heals.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Mike_A on February 24, 2010, 10:44:34 PM
Figured I'd throw a post in here... I'm 32 years old and have been dealing with OA in both knees now since my early 20's.  I still look fairly athletic and in shape (upper body at least) but my legs are in terrible condition.  I fell into the trap of completely giving up on exercising my legs for the most part (except some stiff legged deadlifts) and just concentrating on my upper body.  But my knees have continued to get worse and worse to the point where I began to panic recently and decided to take drastic measures.  I know running is a big no no for oa but I decided to use contrarian thinking and hope that with some jogging every morning my knees would actually improve.  So I've gone out running every morning for the last 5 or 6 days... my route takes me about 25 minutes (I walk certain parts of it) and is pretty hilly (both up and down).  So after less than a week of this my left knee is so swollen I can't really distinguish my knee cap from my leg.  Anyways, I'm not going out running tomorrow and I'm gonna look for some indoor cardio instead (stationary bike or rowing machine).  I was gonna do a month of jogging and then check the results but my knees are KILLING me after less than a week... brutal.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: mmrocker13 on February 24, 2010, 11:48:16 PM
Figured I'd throw a post in here... I'm 32 years old and have been dealing with OA in both knees now since my early 20's.  I still look fairly athletic and in shape (upper body at least) but my legs are in terrible condition.  I fell into the trap of completely giving up on exercising my legs for the most part (except some stiff legged deadlifts) and just concentrating on my upper body.  But my knees have continued to get worse and worse to the point where I began to panic recently and decided to take drastic measures.  I know running is a big no no for oa but I decided to use contrarian thinking and hope that with some jogging every morning my knees would actually improve.  So I've gone out running every morning for the last 5 or 6 days... my route takes me about 25 minutes (I walk certain parts of it) and is pretty hilly (both up and down).  So after less than a week of this my left knee is so swollen I can't really distinguish my knee cap from my leg.  Anyways, I'm not going out running tomorrow and I'm gonna look for some indoor cardio instead (stationary bike or rowing machine).  I was gonna do a month of jogging and then check the results but my knees are KILLING me after less than a week... brutal.

You're doing WAY too much, too soon, no matter what kind of knees you have. If you wanted to start running, start with 5 minutes walk/1 minute run for 20-25, every other day. GRADUALLY build up the run portion. And stay off the ocncrete.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Mike_A on February 26, 2010, 02:43:09 AM
Figured I'd throw a post in here... I'm 32 years old and have been dealing with OA in both knees now since my early 20's.  I still look fairly athletic and in shape (upper body at least) but my legs are in terrible condition.  I fell into the trap of completely giving up on exercising my legs for the most part (except some stiff legged deadlifts) and just concentrating on my upper body.  But my knees have continued to get worse and worse to the point where I began to panic recently and decided to take drastic measures.  I know running is a big no no for oa but I decided to use contrarian thinking and hope that with some jogging every morning my knees would actually improve.  So I've gone out running every morning for the last 5 or 6 days... my route takes me about 25 minutes (I walk certain parts of it) and is pretty hilly (both up and down).  So after less than a week of this my left knee is so swollen I can't really distinguish my knee cap from my leg.  Anyways, I'm not going out running tomorrow and I'm gonna look for some indoor cardio instead (stationary bike or rowing machine).  I was gonna do a month of jogging and then check the results but my knees are KILLING me after less than a week... brutal.

You're doing WAY too much, too soon, no matter what kind of knees you have. If you wanted to start running, start with 5 minutes walk/1 minute run for 20-25, every other day. GRADUALLY build up the run portion. And stay off the ocncrete.
No doubt I over did it bigtime... I'm paying for it right now by hobbling around all day.  I'm gonna switch up to riding my bike, I gotta face the facts that I can't run anymore... my knees can't take it.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: mmrocker13 on February 26, 2010, 04:06:18 AM
Figured I'd throw a post in here... I'm 32 years old and have been dealing with OA in both knees now since my early 20's.  I still look fairly athletic and in shape (upper body at least) but my legs are in terrible condition.  I fell into the trap of completely giving up on exercising my legs for the most part (except some stiff legged deadlifts) and just concentrating on my upper body.  But my knees have continued to get worse and worse to the point where I began to panic recently and decided to take drastic measures.  I know running is a big no no for oa but I decided to use contrarian thinking and hope that with some jogging every morning my knees would actually improve.  So I've gone out running every morning for the last 5 or 6 days... my route takes me about 25 minutes (I walk certain parts of it) and is pretty hilly (both up and down).  So after less than a week of this my left knee is so swollen I can't really distinguish my knee cap from my leg.  Anyways, I'm not going out running tomorrow and I'm gonna look for some indoor cardio instead (stationary bike or rowing machine).  I was gonna do a month of jogging and then check the results but my knees are KILLING me after less than a week... brutal.

You're doing WAY too much, too soon, no matter what kind of knees you have. If you wanted to start running, start with 5 minutes walk/1 minute run for 20-25, every other day. GRADUALLY build up the run portion. And stay off the ocncrete.
No doubt I over did it bigtime... I'm paying for it right now by hobbling around all day.  I'm gonna switch up to riding my bike, I gotta face the facts that I can't run anymore... my knees can't take it.

I don't know that that's 100% true--it certainly is possible to run with OA. But you do need to be smart about it. If you really enjoy it, there are ways to get some running in w/out hurting yourself :-) OTOH, if you don't care, and it doesn't matter that much...don't sweat it.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Lottiefox on February 26, 2010, 10:07:03 PM
Just to add my views....I have always avoided running despite doing lots of others gym work and sports and classes. Last year I started running - nothing major - was aiming for a 5k in a decentish time and I built up my times and distances very very gradually. If possible I ran on tracks or cinder surfaces. All was going fine, I started to add in some hill work and some hill sprints. I realised I was never going to be super fast but my stamina was coming on in leaps and bounds and my legs were stronger. In August my right knee started niggling. By October it was swollen, painful and not right. PT diagnosed a maltracking patella and I started exercises to develop the VMO etc. Late October = meltdown. MRI showed worn lateral patella, OCD lesion on medial femur and early OA changes in medial and PF joint. I'm 40, always been fit and active, slim and consider myself healthy.

Basically I too fell into the trap of leaving lower body exercises apart from the odd quad contraction. Worked my upper body like mad, and lo and behold the knee got worse. Sod this - I went back to indoor biking and spinning, X-trainer, leg press with light weights and LOADS of balance work on the Bosu board and power plate. 3 months in to this new regime and things have settled. I will probably need surgery (see my OS on Monday after extensive scans and CT tracking scans for patella) but doing nothing with my legs just made them so much worse. I know now you must keep using the lower body to keep the knee moving.

Will I run again? No, never. I might be able to, in physical terms (although I run like a drunken chicken at the moment) but it will just stress my already tired knee compartments out. I know my knees have been creaky for years but last summer I pushed them over the edge. I neglected the fact I have poor alignment and that orthotics really didn't stop the damage (I'm too far wonky for them to correct all the problems) and hadn't realised that my wobbly butt and weak inner quads were doing nothing to support my knee. If I can get back to the odd bit of impact work I will be happy and might risk it, but generally I want to look after what bits of cartilage I have left. If I go for ACI (which is probably what will be recommended) I will do everything I can to look after my precious new cartilage.

Mike I hope your knee settles down. Ice ice ice ice ice and elevate and ice and rest and ICE!! You might need a course of stronger NSAIDs as I did last year when my knee blew up after too much running. Just gets a handle back on the swelling.

Lottie  :)
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Mike_A on February 27, 2010, 12:53:03 AM
Really enjoyed your post Lottie... I'm gonna pickup a stationary bike this weekend hopefully and start with 25 or so minutes of that every morning.  I don't have a gym membership right now but I'm doing some wall squats, single legged stiff deadlifts (bodyweight), and calve raises now for my legs... any other ideas for some exercises that I can do at home or does that sound about right?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Lottiefox on February 28, 2010, 10:49:06 PM
Hi Mike

Has the swelling gone down a bit and the knees improved without the morning run?!

I think you've got some good ideas for working the lower body. I know I find the indoor bike quite useful but I have to make sure I work both legs equally as my left knee is in a worse state than the right and if I fail to concentrate I end up letting the left one get pulled around rather than actively working it. I'm sure you do it already but make sure on things like wall squats that you've got good lower body alignment - feet, ankles, knees, hips etc aligned and no additonal stress through the knee joint. Personally wall squats hurt my knees but I have very specific lateral patella damage and the squat upwards motion just crunches them too much.

You could add in some exercises that work the glutes as well, something like the bridge done on both legs and then single legs really works the butt and in turn helps support the knees. Hip extensions are also good so long as you can kneel on the knee without causing pain (avoid this if it hurts!!) Hip adduction and abduction exercises also help the knee, especially by reducing the stress on the medial part of the knee, but remember to push using your adductor or abductor muscles not your feet or knees. If you have a resistance band or theraband lie on your side, bend your knees to about 80 degrees  and tie it round your ankles pretty firmly and then lift the top leg upwards against the resistance of the band. Hold and then slowly lower. Do a set of 10-12 reps on each leg and between 1-3 sets. Sitting with a squeezy ball in between your knees and pushing inwards also works the adductor muscles and can be done at a desk! Concentrate on squeezing the adductor muscles though, not just pushing with the knee bones! Also don't neglect the benefit of the good old straight leg raise for quads strengthening - use an ankle weight if a simple straight leg lift is too easy and concentrate on using the quads to lift the leg. Hold for a while if you can, play about with length of time on lift, hold, lower. Tie something round the ankle for weight if you don't have any ankle weights - a book works for me if need be!

Examples here:

http://exercise.about.com/od/exerciseworkouts/ss/bestbuttexercis_2.htm

Scroll down a bit for this one - the butt lift etc - adapt the basic move using one leg , it soon shows which leg is weaker than the other!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glutes.htm

The other things I'd really recommend is to make stretches and balance work your friend. Don't neglect proper, extended stretches of the quads, hamstrings, calves, ITB and glutes. Do them after exercise but also when things just feel tight. Have you ever done any foam rolling? This can be brilliant for helping identify trigger points and releasing them, I do my calves and ITB every day, usually more than once.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-241-285--11556-0,00.html

As the article says you can use a tennis ball if you don't have a roller to start with.

Finally - balance work is great for knees. Do things on one leg, try and get hold of a wobble board or BOSU ball and do some of your upper body work on it (lateral raises take on a whole new dimension standing on a BOSU!!), use it for squats if you can manage them, or simply stand on one with your eyes closed and lift one leg. Try this on the level first!! Balance work really helps the little muscles around the knee and prepares us for stabilisation in everyday life. We rarely move in one direction and improving our proprioception means we can be better prepared for sudden twists/changes in direction and better protected against injury.

All of these are just general suggestions - obviously you shouldn't do anything that hurts YOUR knees or that your PT has recommended against. If in doubt, consult your doctor or ask a PT who knows your knees. I know lunges are often recommended to strengthen legs - if I do a lunge you may as well cart me off to A&E in an oxygen tent - they simply HURT and don't work for me now, I used to be able to lunge really well with weights and all sorts. No more!!!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Lottie  ;D



Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Mike_A on March 04, 2010, 08:52:47 PM
Thanks for all the great advice Lottie, extremely informative and helpful!!  I'll probably reference this post often.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: BECKZ_oo7 on March 08, 2010, 07:12:35 AM
hey i know how it feels mate...

but really running will only make it worse for u and ur knee(s)...

Besides there are other exercises tht can help u REPLACE RUNNING, such as stationary biking and swimming.. u can also do weights whilst sitting... 
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: runlolarun on March 14, 2010, 10:33:38 PM
Just to stir the running pot more...I'm posting 2 articles,

This one:
http://www.healthline.com/hlbook/art-jogging-or-running

is about continuing to run with OA, and why it's not such a bad idea.  I quote "No evidence exists that individuals with arthritis who continue to run will accelerate their arthritis (Lane et al. 1987; Fries et al. 1994)"   

Take with whatever grains of salt you need to, but, anecdotally and experientially, it sounds right to me.

This one:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100312071800.htm

is quite recent, and very heartening for those of us considering TKRs.  Basically, the gist is that impact sports DO NOT increase the risk of mechanical failure in knee replacements.  Another finding that flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

Interesting stuff...

Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on August 22, 2010, 11:25:46 AM
Question for Lottiefox.....just read your post on exercises for second time....very informative. Since you were a runner you probably miss the great cardio workout it gave you.....i know i still miss it....what would consider a decent cardio workout if you are stuck at home and can't make it to a gym?
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Lottiefox on August 23, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
Hi slyguy,

Yes I miss a lot of the cardio I used to get from running; I was never a BIG runner but I used to run, and lots of my routines or classes would involve running even if I wasn't actually doing a "run" if you get me. I used to enjoy outdoor boot camp type stuff, but thats heavy on the knees and runs/sprints etc are part of it. No more for me sadly.

If you don't have a bike at home I find using boxing a good way to get the heart rate up. I either use pads and gloves with a partner or I do have a punchbag on a stand that I can smack. Alternate this with other things and you can get a really good circuit going that keeps your heart rate elevated. Mix up the punches, set yourself times for so many punches, or combinations. Easy on the knees, and great for cardio and stress for me. I also use interval training a lot on different exercises - my fave is the tabata concept of 20 seconds maximum effort 10 seconds rest repeated 8 times. You can use this on ANYTHING - push ups, crunches, holding a plank, weights,dips, anything you do but chunk it into the 8 sets of the 20/10 combo. Heart rate gets up and stays up. Rest for 30 seconds between different exercises then do another set of something. Mix up core, upper body, cardio....etc. More interesting that bland "home exercises" and you can monitor how many reps you manage in each set....(I am sad). the other thing I like is kettlebell work but my knees need to be feeling well for this and it may be too much too soon for you at the moment as it requires a semi squat position and shift of weight as you swing it up. GREAT for cardio and is non impact but I'd recommend making sure you can cope post surgery before you try and launch one!

Hope this helps if only a bit

Lottie x :)
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: WestPoint on August 24, 2010, 09:04:25 AM
Hello Lottie,

I'm surprised to see that you mentioned boxing; that's what probably got me in this situation in the first place, unless it was the running I was doing for cardio. When I punch a bag or mits, I put my body behind my shots, and avoid arm punches. This puts a lot of stress and torque on the knees. Don't you think this would be a bad form of exercise for someone with knee problems?
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on August 24, 2010, 11:06:32 AM
Lottie,

            Interestingly similar to bodyweight circuit training workout that i started doing at home where you do each exercise with minimal rest to keep HR up. Knowing what you know now.....what would you have done differently? As most runners would agree, running does weaken upper body strength and core training is encouraged to prevent injury and take days off from pounding the pavement which i did not do....like the inspirational speaker/psychologist former runner Wayne Dyer PhD who ran for i believe 9 years straight every single day rain or shine (8 miles every day). Sad to inform that he like most of us is not running anymore. Most out there running don't realize the consequences till it's too late (now i am sad). Thank you for sharing Lottie.....any update on your situation?

sly
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Lottiefox on August 24, 2010, 07:09:00 PM
Hello Lottie,

I'm surprised to see that you mentioned boxing; that's what probably got me in this situation in the first place, unless it was the running I was doing for cardio. When I punch a bag or mits, I put my body behind my shots, and avoid arm punches. This puts a lot of stress and torque on the knees. Don't you think this would be a bad form of exercise for someone with knee problems?

I think my definition of boxing is a little different...I probably mean just pad work or using a punch bag to elevate heart rate. I don't do any of the ducking, pivoting or diving around that proper boxing would entail. I'd agree that such movements place a lot of torque on the knees...but if I stabilise correctly, use my upper body efficiently and balance through my core my knees really aren't doing anything worse than they do going up and down stairs. Running for me definitely did more damage, but thats my biomechanics as much as my poor running technique..... :-\

Sly - what would I have done differently? Got a proper gait analysis before my pain started. Got proper shoes and orthotics. Listened to my body telling me that muscles hurt and were tight and worked on them rather than running through it and probably speeding up the kneecap wear and tear....and definitely not done hill sprints quite so much! Agh!! My situation - I'm avoiding surgery at all costs so far, sticking with PT, exercise I can still enjoy, regular walking, diet management to avoid inflammatory foods, the magic Celebrex has just been started so I'll probably have a heart attack soon...and I am booked for a visco supplement injection in September of Euflexxa. It can't do any damage, and it might just make the knee less creaky. I'll be TKR candidate I know one day, but at 41 and relatively busy I don't want one just yet....

Sly, how are you doing? What exercises do you put into your home circuit? I have some really good magazine articles that gave me some decent ideas, must dig them out. Since having dead knes prevents anything with lunges or most squats I have become very inventive too!

All the best

Lottie
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on August 26, 2010, 12:26:08 PM
Lottie,

             Seems like we have similar views on trying to stay away from surgery....i am kicking myself for not researching more before getting my scope and waking up in a wheelchair with microfracture....definite wakeup call to look out for myself. I would agree that no matter how you look at it running is not for everyone.....genetics plays a bigger role that people think. Even if you have the perfect build for running wear and tear can still defeat you. I was never into weight lifting as much before my surgery but slowly it has replaced my running days for a descent workout. The downside is that i got a bit too bulky which puts weight on knees so these days i am trying to varying workouts to mix and balance everything.....i like your boxing idea....excellent finish to a good workout. Since i don't have gear at home except a pair of dumbells ....i do a mix of upper body,abs, and leg raises followed by wall squat all in consecutive circuit for 30 minutes. I'll admit i get a better workout at gym b/c the bike is a better cardio session. I was doing elliptical which was great cardio....never will replace a good run (sadly)....i put too much stress on knees with the incline being too high....i was in agony for about 10 days....the only time i've taken lots of advil. I've tried the glucosamine/chondroitin stuff.....did not seem to help but the fish oil that i'm taking seems to help.

           I am curious about your visco injection you mention....is that similar to synvisc? Please do share some of your articles if you can....always looking to find new ideas to cope better. At 43, i am scared to even think about TKR...but unfortunately reality says it is a matter of time.

Cheers

Sly
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: Lottiefox on August 26, 2010, 02:32:54 PM
Hi Sly,

I'm having a Euflexxa injection - its totally "biological" with no rooster comb bits in it as eggs make me a bit sicky so I didn't fancy egg bits in my poor knee!! They have a good website if you want to nose. It may do nothing, but if it gives even 20% help then its worth it.

Don't beat yourself up re surgery. We make the best choice at the time for us and our situation. It sounds like you're coming on really well. As said I was never a primary runner, but I really miss a sunny morning, and just running across a park or field with the sun on my shoulders, i pod on and that heart rate rising. The gym can't replace that - but I'd far rather the gym and home stuff than give in to the sofa and lardy-life! Ohh yes the too high incline on the cross trainer - nasty! My gym has things called ARC trainers which are similar but which seem kinder to my knees. I've also been doing some arm bike work - thought I was fairly strong upper body wise but that thing can kill me, great cardio! I fear ending up with an upper body like a Russian shot putter and legs like a chicken - not happened yet so I'll keep on keeping on..

Take care

Lottie  :)
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: WestPoint on August 26, 2010, 07:09:00 PM
Sounds sensible Lottie...
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on August 27, 2010, 11:11:13 AM
Lottie,


             It would be so perfect if they come up with something natural to give us perfect knees even for just 1 hour....enough time to have that perfect run around the park just like we did back in our twenties. Wishful thinking as i haven't had my coffee yet:) Yeah i've seen the nordic trac trainers that simulate skiing. For a nice stretch the elliptical was great cardio but i didn't realize the stress on knee till next day when i woke up in agony and knee swelled like a melon....only time i reach for that advil. I am thankful that i can still get around even if i have to limp on occasion. I've noticed that if i do too much of one area like hamstrings on machine at gym....muscles get too tight and effect tracking of knee. Stretching more on a daily basis seems to help. "Arm bike work".....is that dumbell curls while riding bike? Sounds challenging....one thing about bike i've noticed is that the height of seat makes a difference on pressure on knee joint.....the higher the seat the less stress on knee. I had it low a few times and really felt pain in kneecap afterwards. What about diet and supplements....do you follow a regimen?

Cheers,
Sly
           
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: runlolarun on September 26, 2010, 05:42:24 PM
Here I am again to stir the running debate pot with another article.

This is about Canadian marathoner Ed Whitlock, who's in his 70s, has osteoarthritis in both knees (apparently pretty severe) and wins age group awards running marathons.  Go Ed!

http://runningmagazine.ca/2009/10/sections/feature/comeback-kid-the-return-of-age-group-superhero-ed-whitlock/

that article's from last year, so here's the wiki on Ed, who's apparently still running and winning awards. 

As to me, I'm still running with no problems and loving it, albeit I ain't about to win any awards!

best,
Lorien
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: runlolarun on September 26, 2010, 05:43:25 PM
srry, forgot the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Whitlock
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: softailtom on September 26, 2010, 11:40:38 PM
Thanks for posting that Lorien he is one determined man.
                                                           Tommy                                 
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: mmrocker13 on September 28, 2010, 05:19:13 PM
I'm with ya ;-)
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: north_north_west on April 20, 2011, 08:24:00 PM
Greetings all,

I happened to look again (after not having signed-on to kneegeeks in a few years) to see where this thread has gone, and it has certainly  persisted.  Perhaps this should be in the 'success stories' thread.   

I started this subject three years ago, and though things haven't improved, knee-wise, they haven't gotten worse either. I've still been able to run regularly once or twice a week.  I'm happy to see lots  of people lumbering along despite obstacles.   

For me, while it irritates the knees and it sometimes makes them a bit stiff afterwards, it just doesn't feel like it is making it progressively worse, and in the meantime, it is doing a lot of positive things. 

Dave

Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: slyguy1 on May 28, 2011, 04:00:53 AM
Hi Dave.......that's great that you can still run. I recently saw a high tech brace for knee on one of the doctor shows on tv and they claimed that it takes majority of weight off knee so you can run on it? Anyone know anything about it?
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: ultra1 on October 04, 2011, 09:23:09 PM
Hey Dave (north by northwest)

Just want to add that Im an ultra distance runner.....over 300 marathons and ultras to an extreme nature (100, 200, 300 milers). I had two meniscus ops in my right knee when 21 and 26 and Im now 39. Recently was training to run across the USA and I had severve foot problems which caused me to cancel the race and rest. I didnt run for a few months and my body started to 'unravel' my feet were bad, but my right knee became painful and unstable and it had the familiar meniscus 'catching' sensation.
I hoped it would go away, but it was accompanied by the old 'dull ache'. Ive had dull ache every so often for a while...usually when I forget to take my glucosamine. Anyhow I was diagnosed with lateral OA (mild/moderate), told to change my sport etc.
Obviously when youve ran for so many years its an addiction just as bad as giving up smoking i guess. Im in the eary stages of denial, but it has settled down a bit. But, I realise that hammering away on the roads without changing something cant be good. I switched to extremely cushioned shoes HOKAS. Its almost like running offroad.
Its hard to work out if running will make it worse, all I know is that keeping my legs tight from running takes away the pain....but I dont know if its wearing away faster or slower. All I can do is listen to the pain.....as soon as it is too much I will be stopping, but for now running a few times a week in very cushioned shoes seems to ease the symptoms
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: casual runner on April 06, 2012, 04:38:41 PM
Its hard to work out if running will make it worse, all I know is that keeping my legs tight from running takes away the pain....but I dont know if its wearing away faster or slower.

There's certainly no reason to think it would be wearing away slower...it won't. However, how your knees feel may be somewhat independent of how they are wearing away, up to a point. Everyone's different.
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: KitKat74 on May 08, 2012, 03:19:28 PM
Check out Kangoo Jumps!  http://www.kangoo-jumps.com/   I used them for first time yesterday and no pain.

I had partial meniscectomy (removal of torn meniscus) and undiagnosed OA (OS stated I had wear & tear, but not directly stating arthritis).

My first and only time running after surgery (with just normal running sneakers) I had immense pain that night and a whole half week afterwards.  I did some research on sneakers and footwear that might alleviate impact and came across the Kangoos. 

I figured I would try them out (although they're kinda pricey- ~$250 with s/h).
Pros- no pain during or afterwards; rebound technology actually assists in developing leg muscles
Cons- you will stand out from others in track or park and may feel ridiculous; balancing on them is strange feeling at first
Neutral- slower pace (might have been from not enough practice with them)- I don't think this is a product appropriate for competitors' training except as a transitional instrument to go from injury rehab to full impact running
Title: Re: Running and Osteoarthritis
Post by: accadc on September 15, 2012, 04:46:33 AM
Good thing this thread exists because I'm thinking of giving up running after recently finding out I have arthritis in the patellofemoral area.  Does being able to run without pain necessarily mean you aren't doing damage to your knees?  In my case, it wasn't until most of my cartilage was lost until the pain would force me to stop running.   Until that time, I was running quite a bit (60-80 miles a week for the past 5 years) without much pain in the knee.  For those of you that do run with arthritis (particularly if it is more confined in one area), do you get regular MRIs to monitor your knees to see it it has progressed?  Also, I'm curious if anyone has worked with a physical therapist or had a running gait analysis done to assess whether body alignment issues combined with running might have led to OA in the knees.