The WAITING ROOM => GENERAL KNEE QUESTIONS and comments (good for new threads) => Topic started by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 03:12:33 PM

Title: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 03:12:33 PM
i am a 25yr old female and in aug 2004 i triped over a board that was leaning against a door way in our home to prevent dog geting out. As a result i fell heavily and my right knee smashed straight through a thick floor tile. it swelled instantly as youd expect and was very painful. i went to a&e 2 days later to check i hadnt done any damage as it was still swolen. xrays were taken and nothing was seen as abnormal. i was then fine and could walk normally after a couple of days and actually went horse riding four days after it happened. unfortunatly i fell of the horse whilst cantering mainly (i think) due to not being able to bent etc with knee as it was still swollen and sore. i was then fine and all was normal apart from swelling was still there and i couldn't kneel on it.
in april 2005 i banged the knee whilst at work and could not walk on it again. i ended up in lots of pain and had to use 2 crutches to get around. i was then referred to an orthopedic consultant who did xrays and decided to do an arthroscopy. the arthroscopy went well from what they said and removed some loose cartilage. they did also find some arthritis in the knee also. from then on it stayed swollen and painful and could not bend or straighten it fully and had physio to help me walk again. i was still being referred to my consultant as it wasnt getig any better although with time i was able to walk without crutches but with a big limp! throughout this i was given 5 steriod injections into the joint which helped for aprox 2-3 days and also had 3 mri scans.
in march 2007, i sat on the floor to change a dogs bandage (my leg was stretched out as i sat down and whilst on the floor as i was unable to bent it properly or kneel on it due to the pain) when i tried to get up my knee had locked and my partner had to slowly manipulate the leg to unlock the knee. since then i have not been able to walk on it without crutches but did manage the odd limp around the house. i was then sent for another mri scan to see if any more damage had been caused due to it locking but the scan came back clear. i found when ever i stood up the knee would lock and then release and a bruise would ocuur straight away.
in aug 07 my consultant put me in a full leg cast for four weeks to see if that may help the swelling go down, and to stop it locking. he thought complete immobilisation may help the joint to calm down. whilst in cast it was changed every week as it was slipping due to the wastage of muscle and fat in the leg but each time it got changed my leg went straighter and straighter until it was completly straight (which it hadnt been for neary 2 years). when the cast was removed i was sent for physio 2 days later to get the muscle etc going again but within an hour of the cast being removed it had blown up bigger than normal and couldnt straighten it again. i was then unable to put any weight on it what so eva and became worse than it had been since the arthroscopy. i was therfore back on 2 crutches but couldnt put no weight on it what so eva not even to limp. physio put my leg into a removable splint when at rest to help straighten it which has worked but still cannot put no weight on it at all! i am now being sent for another mri on the 19th november with a dye but have been told there is a 90% chance that it wont show anything and if it does show nothing then there is nothing they can do and i will have to live with it. i am also seeing the pain clinic which have been helpful with pain killers etc but are now not working as well and they dont want to give me anything stronger as the dose's i am on are to strong for my age as it is!!!
i really don't know what to do, i am 25, have lost my job (trainee vet nurse which i was in my last year) and am puttin on weight because i cant excercise but i know the weight wont help my knee! i am in a no win situation and no one seems to know whats up
its swolen, cant be touched or rubbed due to the pain. cant weight bear AT ALL. cant bend it but it is straight!
please help   :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 03:21:40 PM
oh and i also forgot to stay it grinds and cruntches wiv slight movement of the joint which i find very horribly and painful!

think  thats everything (i hope) x :(
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 02, 2007, 03:30:17 PM
I am thinking of 2 things direct. A Mri is not showing everything. A scope would be the best. There could be something minor going on.
But a minor problem can have big effect on the knee.
Number two is have you been tested for any nervpain like RSD/CRPS ?
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 03:40:35 PM
hi fanks for your reply
i am constanatly mentioning to the consultant about going back in as there must be summut wrong but i would rather he open the whole knee rather than an arthroscopy again as he'd get a better look surely but the consultant sed he does not want to go back in unless absolulty nec as it could cause more problems wiv scare tissue or summut. and not sure if i have been tested for any nerve pain. wot do they do to test? and sorry not good with lingo wot does rsd/crsp mean?
thanks helen x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 02, 2007, 03:49:35 PM
Helen, you have any more appointment soon with pain specialist ?
A second opinion is never wrong what comes to see a OS.
RSD/CRPS is a nerve issue that can come after a injury even if everything is healed you can have swelling and pain and other problems.
If you have RSD/ CRPS all surgery but necessery should be avoided as that can aggravate.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 04:13:55 PM
hi, i saw pain specialist today and he was the one to tell me that there may be nothing they can do but i am seeing him again wk b4 xmas. my partner did say something to him about cutting or deadening the nerves to the knee and he said not a chance as no surgeon does it any more and wouldnt help.
but him and the consutant keep saying they dont wanna go back in to it.
the pain specialist said we cud get another opinion(already had one from collegue of original consultant and was no use what so eva as didnt even look at knee) but to get one from another trust but he sed that the waiting list is massive and can only get on the list if they get funding for me to be seen by another trust but suppose i goota try sumut as something must be wrong with it.
helen x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 02, 2007, 04:20:57 PM
But do they have a clue what's wrong ? If you have RSD/CRPS early treatment is necessery for a better outcome. I live with nerve damage and RSD/CRPS in my left knee. For me treatment was way too late..I got my diagnos 2 years after all started.
Here a good site about RSD/CRPS...
What painmeds are you on and which country you live in ?

Just want to tell you that your story is similar to mine. I slipped on ice and twisted left knee and that gave me a nerve damage and I also developed RSD/CRPS:
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 04:43:04 PM
i live in england. i am currently on tramdol 150mg every 4-5 hours and capsaicin cream 4 times daily (which really hurts to put on) and amitriptyline 75mg at night (which is supposed to help me sleep but dont work as aint slept since wednesday night) and have also taken anti-inflammatories that did nothing and arthrotec which did nothing also.

i have read your link and the second opinion that i got (the one that didnt look at my knee at all) did say something about regional pain syndrome but they dont know for sure. the knee is slightly discoloured but my whole body has bad circulation i think as i always become blotchy or red once doing something etc. there is the bruising on the middle of the knee cap which occurs straight after locking. the main part of the pain is straight down knee cap and to the left hand side of the knee is numb to touch (with the sofest of touches the skin is numb feeling) but is very painful to touch also. the left hand side (inner side ) is the swolen part as well as over the middle but the right hand side looks normal (as normal as can be anyway with all the other bit of swelling on the knee). the top of the knee is puffy.

what is the treatment for rsd/crps? if any?

helen x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 04:47:08 PM
although they have mentioned regional pain syndrome, they dont have a clue what is actually wrong which is why i think they have said if the scan still shows nothing then there is nothing they can do but help me deal with it via the pain specialist.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 02, 2007, 05:08:45 PM
The treatment for RSD is meds, can read here..
Don't give this up..first of all fight to get a proper diagnos.
If you have any questions or want any feed back at all, please let me know..just remember if you have pain there's pain.
I didn't get my diagnos before I met a painmanagement team.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 02, 2007, 05:16:03 PM
thank you for your help and i defo wont give up in geting a proper diagnosis of what is actually wrong with my knee. from reading the link it does seem like my pain specialist is on those tracks of assuming it is rsd without actually saying it!

helen x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 02, 2007, 05:26:08 PM
Helen, no problems. I have had this for 10 years and even if I have to put up with daily pain my life goes on.
I have had surgery on my other knee where I don't have RSD and that have forced me to more use my leg..ok that hurts but somehow feels good anyway. Many people don't think you can live with RSD, but you actually can.
Through this site I have met some wonderful friends, friends that are forever. I am from Sweden, but I have travelled both to UK and US and met some of the Kneegeeks. Please keep in touch and let me know how you are.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: eaglemom on November 02, 2007, 05:33:45 PM
Wow, there is really nothing that I can offer to help you other than one tiny thing.  A xray and mri do not show everything.  Also whom ever reads them and writes the report may diff than what the surgeon sees on the real "film."  My case in point was lots more damage was found upon surgery that was not seen on any xray or mri.  And how the damage was was different.  My best advise is second and third opinion and details when you see other doctors. Good luck
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 22, 2007, 01:05:07 AM
had my mri arthrogram on monday and it hurt soo much.
gotta wait 4 an appt now 2 get results

knee i feel is getting worse, especially after having the dye put in it. the pain is getting worse and my tablets aren't doing nothing to ease it again. cold weather aint helpin a suppose.

i just hope the new mri shows somethin otherwise i fink i will go for a second opinion as my os sed theres nothin else he can do. i just want a diagnosis of what is wrong even if it is not curable at least i wud ave a name for the problem

after reading all the info on rsd, i have noticed i do ave a lot of the symptoms but im 2 frightened to mention it to my os incase he takes the easy option and agrees wiv me just because he doesnt know what is wrong!

i think im just avin a very bad few days at the moment because of the pain and i know i shud keep looking for the postive fings but i just find it so hard at the moment! i think i just want some nice hot sun to cheer me up instead of this horrible wet cold english weather  :(

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 22, 2007, 05:49:58 AM
Helen, our weather is hopeless too. We need the sun and warmth.
I understand this feeling you have about bringing up this with your OS. It's a thin line to balance on.
Has he mention anything about that this could be some kind of nerve disorder or nerv pain ?
If he can help you get a second or even third opinion that would be good, if Mri doesn't show anything.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: shellywell on November 22, 2007, 10:07:01 AM
Hi Helen

Welcome to Knee Geeks, I have just been reading your posts with interest. Firstly I too am in the UK and have had a few set backs along my patient journey. I am also only two years older than you so know how it feels to be thinkin you might have to suffer with this for the rest of your life. Imagining how I would cope with life if I wanted kids, or will I be able to kneel down to do a spot of gardening when I'm an older (dont quite have the urge to do it now but I probably will do at some stage of my life!).
From what you have said no one really seems to be putting themselves in your shoes and thinking about how your pain is affecting your life. You have already lost your job and are having to deal with constant pain.
The only advise I can give you is to start kicking up a fuss at the hospital, my mum is a nurse for the NHS (a sister) and she has pushed me all the way through my treatment insisting that those who shout the loudest get the most out of what they are entitled to.
DO NOT accept that they dont know what it is, and make sure they find you a solution or at least a cause. You are a young woman Helen with your life ahead of you, dont let someone who is too busy, too stressed or sick of the NHS have such an effect on your life.
Contact PALS, which is the Patient Advice Liaison Service, they will take you case on and find answers to your questions. If you google it you will find their site.
Hope you get somewhere, but please dont let this go on any longer. Shout and scream if you have to beacuse you are only here once!

Michelle x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 22, 2007, 07:36:02 PM
hi nettan
no no0one has mentioned anything about nerve disorder or nerve pain. when i saw the second os in 2006 he breifly mentioned it cud be anterior knee pain but thats is the only time they have actually mentioned anything that it cud be. the pain specialist keeps saying it cud be that but thats about it. my physio finks it cud be fat pad syndrome but again it is only her who has mentioned it and nothing more has been sed bout it. i am seeing my physio again on wednesday so i fink i will get her to let me know the results and get my os to come and talk to me about it as the clinic is saying there are no appts available for a while which is their usually saying for the nhs!! so hopefully i can get answers on wed instead of waiting weeks that way if it shows nothin im defo going for the 2nd opinion (or shud i say 3rd - but in a different trust).
helen xx

hi michelle
i'm sorry to hear ur havin many problems with the nhs also - seems to be very common wiv everything unless u have money to pay for private treatment!! i fink i am going to start shouting a bit more now if the mri still shows nothing as i dont want to settle for there easy way out wiv not nowing wots up! i feel sorry for all the ppl behind the nhs docs n surgeons as they do everyfing but still get the bad name of nhs is c**p! i know that from exp being a vet nurse - vets r just as bad but at least they seem more commited 2 finding the problem (cud be coz they get paid!) sumtimes i have fort bout getin a vet 2 treat me lol im sure i cud bark n growl at them, just dont fink i wud be very gud at licking my self !!!  :P
i was told by my pain specialist not 2 get on the wrong side of my os but i fink i may not ave much choice now as he seems to be giving up as im not gud 4 his rep havin a failed patient on his books!!!

i wil defo look at pals i have nothing 2 lose!!

wot is ur story?

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 22, 2007, 08:13:01 PM
Helen, great idea with the Mri and physio. Whatever is suggested or done, be sure get a diagnos, cause no matter what the problem is a diagnos will make treatment and understanding how to move on easier.
When I had my RSD diagnos confirmed that was a relief though I were very sad.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 22, 2007, 08:26:27 PM
hi nettan

thats all i want at the moment is a diagnosis of what the prolem is. im sure i wud be able to deal wiv it if i knew wot was wrong even if there was no cure. u tend 2 get on wiv ur life but it just annoys me that they cant even give me a diagnosis instead just say theres nothing they can do. i fink its just the cowards way out!! :(

fingers crossed mri will show something! but im not getting my hopes up!

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 22, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
Helen, the last resort is always a scope if nothing else shows anything.
If he can't help you, try get a second opinion. So frustrating to not know what's going on.
Been there and know how bad the feeling is.
Right now hooked up in bed again..had a fall 2 days back in Immo. See OS again on Monday. At least no breaks.
You hang in there and fight. You have feed back here.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on November 22, 2007, 09:11:04 PM
hi nettan

i actually want my os 2 open knee up if he doesnt know wot up. i know it anit a gud idea n i know it may make it worse but at the mo i just want anything doing 2 find out wot the problem is and i just dont fink another arthroscopy wont be gud enough 2 find the real problem but he is not wanting to go back into again!

i'm so sorry 2 hear u had a fall and hope u dont have another set bk and hope they can sort u out asap if there is any damage

im lucky in a way as my partner is goign fight for me as i just dont fink i have any energy any more! just so fed up wiv the whole situation

helen x
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on November 22, 2007, 09:27:56 PM
Always a tough choice wether to push for surgeries or not. But you need an answer.
Glad to hear you have someone on your side helping you to fight.
I am OK anyway..have a very good OS. He is always so helpful and have time whenever I need him.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on December 04, 2007, 12:28:42 AM
hi i am still as bad as ever. i started my hydrotherapy last week and have got another 3 sessions of half an hours to go. i didnt really feel any benefit from my first session apart from it bl**dy hurt me. i know  its early days but i just dont realy see the point in it. one of the fings he was doing was he had me on my back and he was pulling and pushing me away from him using my legs. lucky for him i cudnt kick him coz it hurt so much! got my physio appointment this wednesday (thought it was last week but i was wrong!) after my hydrotherapy so i will hopefully be able to find out what my latest mri has shown (probably nothing which'll be my luck). as usual i havnt heard any thing from my os wiv an appt or anything to get my results so im gonna make my physio tell me or make my os see me while im there seeing as he's next door!
im feeling anxious for the results but im just soo scared incase it doesnt show anything!  :-\

how is everyone else doing?
helen xxx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on December 04, 2007, 05:56:49 AM
Helen, if phys hurt you very much be sure get exercises that won't hurt. With my RSD knee the only exercises that can work is with straight leg.
I hope your physio can help you with the results. Have you tried to reach your OS ?
You hang in there. If Mri doesn't show anything doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong. Mri aren't 100% accurate.

I damaged the rest of lateal meniscus. So going for second opinion before doing anything at all. Could take a while, so will be fitted with unloader brace.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on December 05, 2007, 07:35:41 PM
saw my physio today n she told me the results of my latest mri - all  normal apart from the fat pad has changed and iis hypersentive but that was all she said n i cant see my os till jan 30th. what does that mean? is there nothing that can be  done or do you think thats not just the only problem?
very confused and annoyed as i aint no further to getting answers to why i cant walk on my leg? :(

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on December 24, 2007, 07:08:49 PM
managed to see my os early - but not much help. he stil doesnt know wots up and wont go back in to check so i have made him send me for another opinion over in a bigger hospital in liverpool to see a specialist so know i just gotta wait for an appt for them.
im so fed up at the moment - im geting more and more problems, i am now getting sharp stabbin like pains from hip to toe to hip again and it hurts so much. im having reactions with my painkillers which are making me sick and dizzy n weak so my pain doc told me to reduce them so i did and now im in so much pain with the knee. i just cant win ever way. i can never get comfy any more because of this hip pain now and hence i am not sleeping - i have not slept properly since last friday maybe managed a couple of hours out of the whole 3 days!

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on February 15, 2008, 05:00:03 PM
well after i last saw my os before xmas, i asked for a referall to another os. i have now got an appointment to see my gp next thurs as he wants to talk to me about my knee. i dont know why! yes there are 2 ppl that my os has recommended but i dont understand y it has taken this long for my gp to want to see me about it. its so frustrating, i just wish the appt was today. god knows how long im gonna have to wait after seeing him before i finally see another os. i just hope the nhs wil be nice to me for a change and give me an appointment quickly but knowing my luck ill have to wait ages! i just hope the new os will be able to help.

knee is no better at all. im hardly sleeping. becoming ill from my tablets. im just getting soooooooooooooooo fed up with it all. its been 2 and a half years since my arthroscopy that was supposed to sort it and its know getting worse and no one from the medical proffession seem to be bothered in finding out whats wrong. i know im probably got less problems than alot of unlucky ppl on this site but i just am losing my positiveness and will to fight for an answer. maybe its just with lack of sleep and 2 much pain and im prob feeling sorry for myself but i just getting so fed up with it all. wiv all my mri's and xrays ive had surely it would have shown sumthin wrong wiv all the problems im having with the stupid knee but i supose im lucky that i still have the leg even if it is causin me so much pain n unhappyness.

i just want to say sorry to all if i sound so ridiculous and sorry for myself but its just way i am feeling at moment.  :'( :'(

helen xx
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: KRNeville on February 15, 2008, 06:32:45 PM
Hugs Helen,

No reason to apologize at all... We all have times when we feel down and frustrated.
(I've had quiet a few myself lol ... recently)

And this forum is here for you to vent and ask questions and get support.

I know alot of times just coming here and reading (as I don't post alot) helps me.

So Keep your chin up and keep looking for a doctor who can and will help you.
There is one out there, promise. It took me 18 years to find such a doctor.


Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on February 21, 2008, 08:15:51 PM
saw my gp today and i am being referred to the national hospital for sports injuries in oswestry. my appointment is march 31st. i just hope they can help me.

just 39 days to wait and counting  ;D
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on March 07, 2008, 04:19:51 PM
they have now changed my appointment.
i am now seeing a mr steve white at oswestry Robert Jones & Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic hospital on 11th april. aparently my first appointment was with a mr graham but he has cancelled that appointment aand said i need to see someone else and so he has put me with mr white who specialises in knees and knees only so cant realy complaina bout that. i just hope he can help.

but now i have longer to wait.

Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: Nettan on March 07, 2008, 06:58:37 PM
Hopefully that will be worth the wait.
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on April 11, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
had appt at 10.20 this morning with new os and didnt get out till bout 12ish although was with doc for bout 10 mins if that


.........its WICKED NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the new doc took a look at my knee did few prods (which hurt like hell) and moving leg around then he  sat down and looked at my pics of the knee. then he said :

i have a lump the size of an almond in the front of my knee which is (now i aint completly sure now what he said but something like - tissue narcosis. he defo said narcosis but cant for the life of me remeber the first bit. but what he said was because i had such a huge trama to the knee when i fell on it the tissue that surrounds the knee to protect it (fat pad i think) got squashed as such by the fall as it wasdirect onto that part and so the tissue has died and so it causing me problems.

so he is going back into it, fully opening knee, to remove this lump and he also said whilst he is in it he is going to shave the knee cap (i think thats what he is shaving, i can hardly remeber what he said now as i was just so happy that he is doing summut i think i went into my own world lol. my fella told me what he said but he isnt 100% exactly what he said now as he was same as me lol)

but i am so so so happy that he is doing something about it.
he said i will be in huge amounts of pain for at least 6 weeks after the operation and may not all work but i dont care as long as he is trying to fix it.

i didnt like him to much.
1. he looked like a professor which the glasses and beard an all lol not that thats a bad thinig just made me laugh BUT
2. the main reason i dont realy like him was because of the way he was with me. he didnt seem to want to listen to me when i was telling him my problems and symptoms and he didnt even believe me when i said that i put my knee through a kitchen floor tile and completly smashed it. but he believed greg when he said again to him for the doc to go your joking and gregs like no i wouldnt joke bout something like that. then he believed me.
but i suppose by the time i was trying to explain what i am feeling and what it does e.g the locking/cracking and crunching and bruises etc etc he had already decided on what he was doing so i suppose he just thinks he'l look when in the knee.

but im just so bloody happy that somebody finnalyy agrees there is summut wrong.

it did seem strange tho as before he said bout the op he asked me how much did i want to go back to work and i said a hell of a lot. and then he said are you desperate to get back to vet nurseing and i said i am desperate to get back to it as it is my life long dream to do that job. thats when he said bout the op  but he did say theres no garentees but i suppose nothing is 100%.

he said i just have to wait for letter with date etc and can take up to 6months but im happy to wait just because he is doing something!
Title: Re: can someone please help me
Post by: helsbels on April 11, 2008, 06:38:08 PM
after trying to find info on narcosis i think it may be something necrosis instead but i will keep looking as i desperatly want to know more about what he is doing it just i cant remeber what he actually said

was defo necrosis or narcosis at the end and it is to do with the dead tissue at front of knee in middle.

any ideas would be helpful