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Author Topic: Amnionic stem cells  (Read 232 times)

Offline fastglycolytic

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Amnionic stem cells
« on: December 07, 2017, 02:50:02 AM »
Hi Everyone. I know a lot has been posted about stem cells, bone marrow derived and adipose derived. I have done both and gotten some improvement. I think I have found something better. Amnionic stem cells. I was told that there are around 10,000 stem cells that are harvested from bone marrow. With the amnionic stem cells it could be around 500,000-1.5 million. Apparently there are also around 75 different grow factors compared to 9 or less in PRP. I also had quite an informative talk with the CEO of R3Stemcell and would recommend anyone out there considering stem cells to read the company website. The bone marrow stem cells, which I did twice (Regenxx) cost me about $6000 each time. I decided that I would try amnionic stem cells for the heck of it. The other bonus of the ASC is that there is no harvesting. The cells get overnighted to the doctor, they defrost them, mix with PRP and inject. My knees have a long way to go, but I did get improvement. I probably need to have the procedure that Dr. Broyles does.  It was much less expensive because the practitioner I went to has very low overhead and isn’t trying to get rich. He charges $2500 for the amnionic injection and that includes the PRP. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and other doctors were charging anywhere from $4,000 to $7,000 per knee. The company that supplies the ASC is R3Stemcell, google R3Stemcell.com. The practitioner that treated me is Dr. John Monagle. His website is MarinNatural.com. I am happy to answer any questions people might have.

Offline dal_knee

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 04:55:41 AM »
Hi
Do you have generalized OA or isolated cartilage defect(s)?

Can you describe the difference you experienced between regennex and amniotic stem cell treatment? 

I looked at one video but it didn't explain how the R3 process is different in terms of guaranteeing x amount of viable MSCs since the freezing process kills live cells.  If you can comment on that it'd be great.

Do they use a commercial PRP kit, if those which one ?
2007 - partial medial meniscectomy
2010 - full thickness chondral defect & adjacent subchondral edema MFC.   Direct result of stupid partial mensicectomy from 2007.
2014 - Subchondroplasty, chondroplasty, unauthorized 2nd partial medial meniscectomy.
2015 - partial failure of subchondroplasty.

Offline Aly0108

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2017, 05:35:34 PM »
Hello,

Amniotic stem celle is the same like RENU? I am very interested about it, no more info. I dont want with PRP, it gave me a lot swelling.
Did you try ASC, it helped you with pain and inflammation?

Offline fastglycolytic

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 03:29:38 AM »
I had some improvement with Regenexx, but I had to stay in Colorado for about 7 days inorder to get the pre and post PRP injection and the actual stem cell injection. With the amnionic injection I was in and out in 30 min. Just had to wait for the ASC to defrost (they are overnighted) and get mixed with my PRP. Dr. Monagle has a novel way of obtaining the PRP. He centrfuges the blood in special testtube that helps better separate the platelets, then he pipets the PRP out so that he doesn’t get much else with it. Some practitioners believe the addtional blood/RBCs that comes along with the PRP in the standard kits may interfere with the PRP. I have no way of proving this either way, just reporting. With Dr. Monagle I don’t lose any work time like I did when I had to go to CO. I had him do my hip with ASC too which now no longer clicks. If one doesn’t want to do ASC he also does PRP and Prolozone, which he was trained in from Frank Shallenberger.

Aly0108 don’t be afraid of the inflammation (swelling) that is the response you want from your immune system and part of the process. When I spoke with the CEO R3Stemcell he told me that unless the ASC are prepared properly regarding the freezing and the correct amount of DMSO (less than 20%), and no radiation the cells will be killed. I read that Regenexx looked at one company’s ASC and found no viable stem cells. Another company MiMedx had a third party assay a number of competitors ASC and one of them Paligen had no viable stem cells either. I know a woman that paid $7000 per knee for injections of Paligen. I will check in with her to see if she saw any improvement. My issue is worn cartilage behind the knee cap. Overall I am doing more activity now that I have in the last 5 years. But I think it the microdrilling plus stem cells that will get me where I want to be. I often wonder how the microdrilling with the ASC would work.

Offline Brandon123

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 09:31:58 AM »
My issue is worn cartilage behind the knee cap. Overall I am doing more activity now that I have in the last 5 years. But I think it the microdrilling plus stem cells that will get me where I want to be. I often wonder how the microdrilling with the ASC would work.

Can I ask how bad your cartilage behind the knee cap is? And is it evenly worn or focal lesions? I ask because I have arthritis type of damage behind the knee cap and find it very difficult to find any promising treatments. 

Offline fastglycolytic

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 12:52:07 PM »
My cartilage thickness is pretty low in various areas. Dr. Saw’s technique seems the best surefire solution. I will probably have Dr. Broyles of Baton Rouge do the micro drilling and stem cell treatment,

Offline Aly0108

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 06:57:45 PM »
After your history with your knees, I understood that stem cell is not help with issues. I have also chondromalacia patella gr. 1-2. I hoped for stem cell, but I didn't find a successful history.
Can you say if ASC helped with kneecaps?

Offline psny

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 07:23:17 AM »
Yet another thread on these forums about amniotic "stem cells" ::). There are no living stem cells in amniotic fluid. Several companies have faced scrutiny by the FDA over this claim. Amniotic fluid is mostly growth factors and hyaluronic acid. This treatment bears no resemblance to bone marrow aspirate, stromal vascular fraction, or peripheral blood stem cells containing hematopoietic stem cell CD34+ cells.

Treatment with amniotic fluid is most comparable to PRP, which is much cheaper then what is usually charged for amniotic treatments. Unless you are of old age or have some other blood platelet disorders I don't personally see the benefit of opting for amniotic fluid injections. The additional money being spent on an amniotic treatment versus consecutive PRP treatments is not worth it!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 07:17:40 PM by psny »

Offline Brandon123

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 09:26:03 AM »
My cartilage thickness is pretty low in various areas. Dr. Saw’s technique seems the best surefire solution. I will probably have Dr. Broyles of Baton Rouge do the micro drilling and stem cell treatment,

Ok, thanks for the info!

Offline Aly0108

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 11:06:50 PM »
Yet another thread on these forums about amniotic "stem cells" ::). There are no living stem cells in amniotic fluid. Several companies have faced scrutiny by the FDA over this claim. Amniotic fluid is mostly growth factors and hyaluronic acid. This treatment bears no resemblance to bone marrow aspirate, stromal vascular fraction, or peripheral blood stem cells containing hematopoietic stem cell CD34+ cells.

Treatment with amniotic fluid is most comparable to PRP, which is much cheaper then what is usually charged for amniotic treatments. Unless you are of old age or have some other blood platelet disorders I don't personally see the benefit of opting for amniotic fluid injections. The additional money being spent on an amniotic treatment versus consecutive PRP treatments is not worth it!


psny, Can you show me a person where stem cell bone marrow helped to grow cartilage? I asked a lot people who received stem cell Regenexx, and unfortunately they are sad about waste of money, because Regenexx use HA, and a lot people feel a little relive of pain, but stem cell did not nothing for cartilage.
Now, a lot people are looking for another cure, because stem cell is a good theory, but in practical it do nothing.
I have a hope for Lipogems and amniotic, I will be happy, if amniotic fluid will help me with pain relive and inflammation.

Offline psny

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Re: Amnionic stem cells
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 07:16:48 PM »
Yet another thread on these forums about amniotic "stem cells" ::). There are no living stem cells in amniotic fluid. Several companies have faced scrutiny by the FDA over this claim. Amniotic fluid is mostly growth factors and hyaluronic acid. This treatment bears no resemblance to bone marrow aspirate, stromal vascular fraction, or peripheral blood stem cells containing hematopoietic stem cell CD34+ cells.

Treatment with amniotic fluid is most comparable to PRP, which is much cheaper then what is usually charged for amniotic treatments. Unless you are of old age or have some other blood platelet disorders I don't personally see the benefit of opting for amniotic fluid injections. The additional money being spent on an amniotic treatment versus consecutive PRP treatments is not worth it!


psny, Can you show me a person where stem cell bone marrow helped to grow cartilage? I asked a lot people who received stem cell Regenexx, and unfortunately they are sad about waste of money, because Regenexx use HA, and a lot people feel a little relive of pain, but stem cell did not nothing for cartilage.
Now, a lot people are looking for another cure, because stem cell is a good theory, but in practical it do nothing.
I have a hope for Lipogems and amniotic, I will be happy, if amniotic fluid will help me with pain relive and inflammation.

You need to do more research on this topic! To my knowledge Regenexx does not combine BMAC with HA. My opinion is that Regneexx is a waste of money as the cost of the procedure greatly diminishes the ability for most people to repeat the treatment.

Additionally, BMAC, SVF, and PBSC's can absolutely regrow cartilage due to the presence of CD34+ cells. However, it is very unlikely, impossible in my opinion, to regrow cartilage without a vascular channel into the bone. This can only be done with subchondral drilling. Dr. Saw and Dr. Broyles both utilize this method for cartilage damage and subsequent regeneration. An extended period of time without bearing weight on the recovering joint is also apart of this process that is every bit as important as the drilling and injections of cells.

Personally, I have had fat derived cells called SVF, see my thread for more information, injected along with PRP into my knees twice and I have less crepitus. This is proof that some regrowth of the articular surface of my joints has taken place, however, I do not have a full thickness lesion. I had grade I chondromalacia with the only symptoms being crepitus. 

To conclude, amniotic injections are a waste of money. They're a great way for most naturopaths and physiatrists to make extra money without having to invest into a centrifuge or separation kits. PRP absent of red blood cells will be more effective for the majority of the population that does not have platelet disorders or is not of old age.

** Disclaimer ** This post is my opinions. I am not offering medical advice.

Offline tomtomtom

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