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Author Topic: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS  (Read 4114 times)

Offline cspike2

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2017, 06:25:06 PM »
I've always heard about cartilage having no nerves, and that it can't regenerate.  There are studies these days that some level of repair can occur.  I've also understood the concept of strengthening the muscles around the knee to help provide support/shock absorption.  In my case my damage is from bending my knee repetitively.  I've also had the same PT routine over the years, to try to strengthen my VMO.  Strong muscles to support the joint make sense to me, but I guess as a cyclist and runner, my muscles weren't strong enough?? The knee bears weight in a vertical and bending manner, that was the part I kept forgetting.  I put lots of weight on my knee caps as I cycled. 

My quality of life is really bad right now.  I feel like bending my knee to put socks and shoes on causes it to flare up.  I feel like I am ultimately headed towards at least one replacement.  Thankfully my right knee has been strong and supportive through all of this, or I would be useless around my house.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 06:35:02 PM by cspike2 »

Offline reflex_nl

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2017, 07:49:01 PM »
I share your pain... and can fully relate to it. It is really a tough mental game to give up so many things you love. OS are not clear about the direction to follow wrt cartilage repair. It seems the kneecap is the hardest to fix...

I try to enjoy as much the days that the knee does n't flare up, but these are rare.
RK Patella Luxation in 2000
RK Scope grade 2 damage to patella
RK PT for 4 mths, recovered 90% after 4 years
LK Patella Luxation in Oct'16
LK Scope grade 4 damage to patella Nov'16
LK PT ongoing... in a lot of pain...

Offline Brandon123

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2017, 10:34:44 AM »

I try to enjoy as much the days that the knee does n't flare up, but these are rare.

Reflex, have you seen any improvements recently?

Offline tinydinosaur

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2017, 10:26:21 PM »
I've always heard about cartilage having no nerves, and that it can't regenerate.  There are studies these days that some level of repair can occur.  I've also understood the concept of strengthening the muscles around the knee to help provide support/shock absorption.  In my case my damage is from bending my knee repetitively.  I've also had the same PT routine over the years, to try to strengthen my VMO.  Strong muscles to support the joint make sense to me, but I guess as a cyclist and runner, my muscles weren't strong enough?? The knee bears weight in a vertical and bending manner, that was the part I kept forgetting.  I put lots of weight on my knee caps as I cycled. 

They're just starting to understand that it depends on the individual's body, just as an impact injury can cause one person's cartilage to start dying and another person can be fine. I'd imagine your quads would be very strong, but your VMO and glutes might be weak. If you can find a sports physio or athletic therapist to help you make a new PT program they are more specialized in identifying and treating / creating a program for muscle imbalances.

Supporting the joint also means strengthening core, calves, glutes, in addition to making sure your VMO fires at the same time as your quad, strengthening it and the hams as well AND of course making sure any areas that are tight are stretched accordingly.

I agree with the opinion of not doing rehab that irritates your knee, especially as a few of us have an area of defect right under the patella (which makes load bearing activities a nightmare, even biking, because you're pushing while extending), but I disagree with completely stopping all activity unless your are inflamed to the point where it's just always like that. Even if all you are doing is gentle ankle pumps or ROM slides with a towel.

All this rambling to try and say it depends on your body, you're all going to know your body better at this point than any doctor or therapist so trust yourself and if you can find someone who is willing to work with you (and LISTEN to you, when you say no to an exercise) to create a program to help rehab the supporting muscles. Or if you feel like stopping all activity for a while would be a worthwhile to try then go for it! All I did in between major surgeries while I stopped going to AT (because I was really depressed) was a weight shifting exercise, I could do it for a few minutes before it would get aggravated, but when I stopped that aggravation wouldn't last unlike walking, biking, or the exercises I had. The funny thing is I can still do weight shifting but if I try to turn that into weight shifting/side steps it's hell, mostly because the weight shifting allows you to bear load and then shift back off the knee without extending.

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2017, 04:00:20 AM »
Your situation sounds very much like mine, only diff being I had a sudden tear of medial meniscus in L knee while running which required surgery which triggered the 4/5yrs of severe PFPS in both knees.  I had chondro on both kneecaps for years before that and it never stopped me doing much (e.g. half ironman triathlons). I got pain and short flare ups but nothing like the PFPS


I had an in person consultation yesterday to look over my films with Dr. Dye.  I've been doing the OS and PT thing with my knees since the late 90's. OSs and PTs will make you worse if you've had true loss of tissue homeostasis (chronic synovial inflammation) like I did.

 At this point I wish I would never have had my arthroscopic surgeries, but at least they were relatively minor procedures compared to what I could have done. Yup - they were probably useless at best, made you worse at worst.  I had little choice with my bad meniscus tear, but was offered patella cleanups etc afterwards when my PFPS flared.  Luckily I's read enough by then to know that was not the answer.  The OS who did my meniscus also agreed

 The one consistent piece I keep hearing from all of the OSs I see is that I am too young for knee replacement.  Dr. Dye was a little more adamant about it, saying I don't want to go there. 

So for now I will be working to restore my knees to a homeostatic state, but to what end?

This is wise.  The end is to have normal knees again. Mine are pretty close and 12mths ago I'd never have believed it possible

Attempting to not load my knees at all through out the day, to ice them 2-3 times a day, and take NSAIDs for a couple weeks.  Walking and swimming are pretty much all I will be doing now a days, and I've voluntarily begun taking the elevator.  :P  There was no mention of strengthening my VMO or quads in general, just to get my actively regenerating/repairing patellas back to normal.  I left the office thinking I am now in a state of existence versus being active.  While I haven't ridden my bikes for fitness in almost a year, I still enjoyed commuting by bike and riding with my young boys.  I'm guessing that all ends now, but I will try to think more positively.

No it does not end.  I'm still along way from where I was, but am doing so much more than I beloeved I'd ever do again.  I even did a short triathlon in April! In the meantime I found other exercise regimes to stay fit - swimming with a pull buoy & ankle bands to limit kicking, and a really tough little 20-25 aerobic gym routine

Do what Dr Dye says.  I did, esp the 4/5mths of Celebrex and I'm 90%+ cured, I'm even doing a little running & cycling again.  2yrs ago, I was even pondering double amputation to get rid of the awful constant ache/burn/stiffness.  Luckily I found Dr Dyes protocols and followed them.

I basically feel like my knee is made of glass, and I have to be careful doing anything.  I'm hyper conscious of how I position my leg, trying to avoid bending it too much.  Makes me feel rather useless just performing routine tasks at home. Yup, exaclty how I was for 4yrs

To what end to I take NSAIDS and Calcitonin?  When my prescriptions run out, what next?  He didn't seem concerned with PT, just achieving homeostasis and avoiding replacement. Yup, that is the key. I still had a great range of motion, but testing that range just made the inflammation worse.  The whole idea of my Celebrex was to defeat that inflammation & I did after 4/5mths on it

I tried many many things and the only thing that worked was Celebrex plus walking plus exercises that did not over-load my knees. It was hard to work out what those were but trial & error got me there.
L Medial menisectomy May 2012
PFPS in both knees ever since
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014
Also looking into Dr Scott Dye's Tissue Homeostasis & Envelope of Function work
2017 - 80+% cured thanks to Dr Dye's research
2017 - first small triathlon in 5yrs
2017 - back to 30% of training volume - that'll do!

Offline Brandon123

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2017, 09:39:35 AM »
Your situation sounds very much like mine, only diff being I had a sudden tear of medial meniscus in L knee while running which required surgery which triggered the 4/5yrs of severe PFPS in both knees.  I had chondro on both kneecaps for years before that and it never stopped me doing much (e.g. half ironman triathlons). I got pain and short flare ups but nothing like the PFPS

Suspect, I'm just curious, you only had surgery in one knee? But ended up with severe PFPS in both knees? What triggered the inflammation in the other knee? I try to understand how these inflammatory states of the knees develop...in both my knee episodes (2009-2011, 2015->) it started with a stabbing pain while running, then constant pain, inflammation, stiffness etc. OS say (and have found) that I have chondro/early patellafemoral arthritis and that is the problem. Chondro/arthritis, however, do not just pop up and start to make trouble one day. And both times I have gone from completely symptom-free to disabled in a week or so. So something must have happened while I was running, but there is no other visible problems in the the knee except the mentioned chondro/arthrities. I have always been confused about this.   

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2017, 08:02:47 AM »
Your situation sounds very much like mine, only diff being I had a sudden tear of medial meniscus in L knee while running which required surgery which triggered the 4/5yrs of severe PFPS in both knees.  I had chondro on both kneecaps for years before that and it never stopped me doing much (e.g. half ironman triathlons). I got pain and short flare ups but nothing like the PFPS

Suspect, I'm just curious, you only had surgery in one knee? But ended up with severe PFPS in both knees? What triggered the inflammation in the other knee? I try to understand how these inflammatory states of the knees develop...in both my knee episodes (2009-2011, 2015->) it started with a stabbing pain while running, then constant pain, inflammation, stiffness etc. OS say (and have found) that I have chondro/early patellafemoral arthritis and that is the problem. Chondro/arthritis, however, do not just pop up and start to make trouble one day. And both times I have gone from completely symptom-free to disabled in a week or so. So something must have happened while I was running, but there is no other visible problems in the the knee except the mentioned chondro/arthrities. I have always been confused about this.   

Exactly Brandon - this is the $64M question.

My knees were getting a lot of load (half-ironman training) and I do recall an odd sensation in them while running a few weeks before the meniscus tear & subsequent surgery and the descent into Hell.

My theory is I was heading for chronic PFPS anyway, and the meniscus surgery (although only on one knee) was the final straw that brought it on quicker.

And you are exactly right about arth/chondro not just popping up which none of the medicos etc. seemed to cotton onto.  That is largely because they shunt you in and out so fast and collect their fat fee, they don't really have time to piece it together.  It is just not possible for cartilage etc to deteriorate that fast and intuitively, I knew my main problem (esp as it suddenly occurred in BOTH knees) was something else (and I finally worked out through my own research, the final piece of the puzzle being Dr Dyes work, that it was chronic loss of tissue homeostasis/synovial inflammation).

I even asked one well regarded knee expert at a top Australian football club could it be synovitis and he prodded a little and said definitely not.  But it bloody well was!

The medical/PT diagnosis/treatment of PFPS almost borders on medical neglect in Australia - and almost everywhere else by the sounds, except for Dr Dye in the good ole US of A.  That bloke is a straight shooter but the rest of the OPS profession don't want to hear about it - because it would cost them a fortune in lost surgeries.  We'd happily take him here Downunder!
L Medial menisectomy May 2012
PFPS in both knees ever since
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014
Also looking into Dr Scott Dye's Tissue Homeostasis & Envelope of Function work
2017 - 80+% cured thanks to Dr Dye's research
2017 - first small triathlon in 5yrs
2017 - back to 30% of training volume - that'll do!

Offline Brandon123

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 09:03:35 AM »

Exactly Brandon - this is the $64M question.

My knees were getting a lot of load (half-ironman training) and I do recall an odd sensation in them while running a few weeks before the meniscus tear & subsequent surgery and the descent into Hell.

My theory is I was heading for chronic PFPS anyway, and the meniscus surgery (although only on one knee) was the final straw that brought it on quicker.

And you are exactly right about arth/chondro not just popping up which none of the medicos etc. seemed to cotton onto.  That is largely because they shunt you in and out so fast and collect their fat fee, they don't really have time to piece it together.  It is just not possible for cartilage etc to deteriorate that fast and intuitively, I knew my main problem (esp as it suddenly occurred in BOTH knees) was something else (and I finally worked out through my own research, the final piece of the puzzle being Dr Dyes work, that it was chronic loss of tissue homeostasis/synovial inflammation).

I even asked one well regarded knee expert at a top Australian football club could it be synovitis and he prodded a little and said definitely not.  But it bloody well was!

The medical/PT diagnosis/treatment of PFPS almost borders on medical neglect in Australia - and almost everywhere else by the sounds, except for Dr Dye in the good ole US of A.  That bloke is a straight shooter but the rest of the OPS profession don't want to hear about it - because it would cost them a fortune in lost surgeries.  We'd happily take him here Downunder!

Yep, it is the $64M question indeed. I have asked three well-regarded OS about this mystery, how I can go from athletic to disabled in a week if my knee pain, stiffness etc. is due to chondro/arthritis, but never received any convincing answers. They usually just tell me that these conditions can have their "ups and downs" and I now have a flare up that will settle eventually.

Regarding synovitis, I guess there was no evident signs on examination of inflammation/synovitis? None of my OS has ever mentioned this in my case (even though the knee gets red and warm with almost no activity). In my arthroscopic report from 2009 it even says 'no signs of synovitis'. So I have always been confused about this as well, can you have the type of synovitis/tissue inflammation Dr Dye refers to, without the evident inflammation OS in general refer to as synovitis (if you understand what I mean)?


Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 10:02:27 AM »

Yep, it is the $64M question indeed. I have asked three well-regarded OS about this mystery, how I can go from athletic to disabled in a week if my knee pain, stiffness etc. is due to chondro/arthritis, but never received any convincing answers. They usually just tell me that these conditions can have their "ups and downs" and I now have a flare up that will settle eventually.

Regarding synovitis, I guess there was no evident signs on examination of inflammation/synovitis? None of my OS has ever mentioned this in my case (even though the knee gets red and warm with almost no activity). In my arthroscopic report from 2009 it even says 'no signs of synovitis'. So I have always been confused about this as well, can you have the type of synovitis/tissue inflammation Dr Dye refers to, without the evident inflammation OS in general refer to as synovitis (if you understand what I mean)?

Yup, my knees got red & warm too.

I'm sure you can get tissue inflammation that does not show on xray, mri etc, though I'd have thought you'd see it when you stick an arthroscope in there.  Synovitis might have been thr wrong description for what I had, but there was definitely some widespread inflammation in my knees and it was not just in one specific spot.  And the pain etc tended to move around, though was mostly anterior (felt like under kneecap), but also sometimes medial, and sometimes in areas above and below knee.
L Medial menisectomy May 2012
PFPS in both knees ever since
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014
Also looking into Dr Scott Dye's Tissue Homeostasis & Envelope of Function work
2017 - 80+% cured thanks to Dr Dye's research
2017 - first small triathlon in 5yrs
2017 - back to 30% of training volume - that'll do!

Offline Brandon123

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2017, 10:19:56 AM »

Yup, my knees got red & warm too.

I'm sure you can get tissue inflammation that does not show on xray, mri etc, though I'd have thought you'd see it when you stick an arthroscope in there.  Synovitis might have been thr wrong description for what I had, but there was definitely some widespread inflammation in my knees and it was not just in one specific spot.  And the pain etc tended to move around, though was mostly anterior (felt like under kneecap), but also sometimes medial, and sometimes in areas above and below knee.

My pain sometimes also radiates from under the kneecap towards mainly the areas below the knee. Besides your celebrex treatment, did you do anything else medicine/treatment wise to combat the inflammation, such as supplements, diet, injections (PRP, synvisc etc)?

Interesting btw what said about the PFPS treatment in Australia, as you have quite advanced pain management research going on down there (e.g. http://www.bodyinmind.org/who-are-we/), I always assumed you had quite advance treatment programs for knee pain, chondro, arthritis, PFPS etc.   

Offline cspike2

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2017, 08:13:01 PM »
@SuspectDevice    This is the kind of info I need to hear.  I'm still a little discouraged though.  My young boys are learning to ride bikes, swim and will be starting sports.  I will really have to work on my patience.  The prescribed NSAID I had was piroxicam, and the prescription ran out about a week ago without a refill.  I am still taking the Calcitonin, and I think there is one refill on it. I'm still a little confused about the target goal for this protocol.  I understand the homeostasis part, but I will still have the damage to my patellar cartilage, so it seems the risk of inflammation somewhere down the road will always be there.  I would really like to ride again some day, but to have to wait 4-5 years....Ugh! I'll be 50 by that time.  I'm swimming and walking right now, but I would love to be able to ride again, even run.  It sounds like my next step (although not necessarily soon), is to find some exercises I can do within my threshold.  Thanks for your feedback.

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2017, 09:24:22 PM »
@SuspectDevice    This is the kind of info I need to hear.  I'm still a little discouraged though.  My young boys are learning to ride bikes, swim and will be starting sports.  I will really have to work on my patience.  The prescribed NSAID I had was piroxicam, and the prescription ran out about a week ago without a refill.  I am still taking the Calcitonin, and I think there is one refill on it. I'm still a little confused about the target goal for this protocol.  I understand the homeostasis part, but I will still have the damage to my patellar cartilage, so it seems the risk of inflammation somewhere down the road will always be there.  I would really like to ride again some day, but to have to wait 4-5 years....Ugh! I'll be 50 by that time.  I'm swimming and walking right now, but I would love to be able to ride again, even run.  It sounds like my next step (although not necessarily soon), is to find some exercises I can do within my threshold.  Thanks for your feedback.

And here is the other big issue cspike2 - PATIENCE!

Like you, I was really, really bad at this and kept sabotaging my recovery by trying too much exercise (I definitely had/have exercise addiction - hence the long-course triathlons).  But after 4yrs, and getting back into some of my old hobbies (esp fly-fishing), my exercise addiction waned and I was happy doing less.  Interestingly, so long as I did not crouch or squat down, my knees really liked the slow wandering about while fly-fishing.

Initially, all I could do for exercise was easy 20-30min flat walks, swim freestyle with minimal/no kicking, and some upper body weights & core in the gym.  I just did this for 3-4 yrs!  A far cry from 4 hour bike rides and 2 hour runs.  Later I found some leg weights that didn't flare my knees for weeks (deadlifts up to 55kg, kettlebell swings up to 20kg, sissy squats just body weight, crab walk with thera band).  Later I added a little cycling (initially 30mins, now up to 75mins) and running (4kms of 2min walk, 3min run). This is all pathetic compared to what I used to do, but I've made my peace with it.  It is enough to race short tris, and if it means I never get that constant awful pain again, I'll take it.

Dr Dyes notes say some people get cured on his regime in months, some have taken 10yrs!

As for the patella cartilage - it can heal with the right sort of rest (read Richard Bedards book).  And the right sort of rest is pretty much what you also need to do for PFPS.  My chondro is a lot better since I had to back right off due to the PFPS.  I can still flare it, but I'm pretty sure the damage has lessened. 

Is the patella chondro related to the PFPS?  I can't say.  But something triggered chronic inflammation of something (synovial lining?) in BOTH knees, and the bad chondro was only in my R knee, so maybe they are unrelated?

BTW I was 48 when my PFPS hit hard and racing faster than I ever had in my life.  I was smashing 20 year olds in the local races and sometimes winning them outright. I'm now 53 and I've come to terms with where I'm at.

Another point - for me cycling was worse for the PFPS than running!  I think the big gear grinding windtrainer sessions my coach had me doing for 5yrs was the key to bringing on my PFPS in the first place.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 09:33:23 PM by SuspectDevice »
L Medial menisectomy May 2012
PFPS in both knees ever since
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014
Also looking into Dr Scott Dye's Tissue Homeostasis & Envelope of Function work
2017 - 80+% cured thanks to Dr Dye's research
2017 - first small triathlon in 5yrs
2017 - back to 30% of training volume - that'll do!

Offline cspike2

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2017, 06:59:43 PM »
Yes, I really have to avoid kneeling and squatting these days.  Sets it off right away.  It's annoying what small movements cause little bursts of pain.  I'll find a way to get back into pilates for the upper body/core workout, but I feel like so many activities I want to do involve my knees.  As long as I'm not walking in my flip flops, I find that I can do a 20-30 minute walk without any issues.  Beyond that I get bored.
I've never done anything longer than a sprint tri, so I would be happy to get those back some day.  It's hard to be patient as my brother, who is 5 years older than me, still races for specialized masters, and his girlfriend is a professional cyclist.  My exposure to new bikes, tech and parts is constant.
So am I to understand that you followed your own treatment based on Dr Dye's papers?  Did you take anything beyond the celebrex?  He has me taking calcitonin and icing my knees to keep them cool whenever possible. 

Offline SuspectDevice

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2017, 10:44:08 PM »
Yes, I really have to avoid kneeling and squatting these days.  Sets it off right away.  It's annoying what small movements cause little bursts of pain.  I'll find a way to get back into pilates for the upper body/core workout, but I feel like so many activities I want to do involve my knees.  As long as I'm not walking in my flip flops, I find that I can do a 20-30 minute walk without any issues.  Beyond that I get bored.
I've never done anything longer than a sprint tri, so I would be happy to get those back some day.  It's hard to be patient as my brother, who is 5 years older than me, still races for specialized masters, and his girlfriend is a professional cyclist.  My exposure to new bikes, tech and parts is constant.
So am I to understand that you followed your own treatment based on Dr Dye's papers?  Did you take anything beyond the celebrex?  He has me taking calcitonin and icing my knees to keep them cool whenever possible.

Yes, it is hard to be hobbling like a 90 yo in your 50's and be surrounded by active people.  My wife is a personal trainer and keen runner, and I used to train and race triathlon and half-marathons with our youngest daughter who is still a regular runner.

Yes, basically I read Dr Dyes papers but especially got a lot from these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLisqHx8sM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybd4MZe3jk

Before I talked to my Dr about trying a course of anti-inflammatories (Celebrex) I tried many, many things:

  • TENS machine - worked well to ease the pain of bad flare-ups but not a long-term solution
    Icing - was doing this before my PFPS hit (which in hindsight tells me something bad was coming), but I think it may have led to a CRPS type problem.  But I do still ice a little now, but no more than once a day for 15mins
    Cod liver oil capsules - might have made a tiny difference, still take them
    RoseHip - did nothing
    Tumeric - did nothing
    Glucosamine + Chondroiton - did nothing
    Over the counter anti-inflams (Advil etc) - temporary relief but not a long term solution
    Fly-fishing wading in cool water - had a very positive effect
    Not sitting all day at a desk - had a positive effect
    Other things I've forgotten, but none had a long term effect like the Celebrex

Search this forum for a guy called Terry42 - his story is very similar to mine except he managed to defeat his inflammation WITHOUT meds, as did Richard Bedard who wrote Saving My Knees (though Richard basically had to quit work and massively alter his day to day activities to do so).  Same as Paul Ingrham prescribes in his book on PFPS - massive modification of lifestyle.  I was not willing to modify that much, so the Celebrex was my solution.

The thing about this chronic inflammation is it really presents symptom-wise like all your cartilage has disappeared.  It feels like you are bone on bone, but you are not.


L Medial menisectomy May 2012
PFPS in both knees ever since
Pre-CRPS diagnosed 2014
Also looking into Dr Scott Dye's Tissue Homeostasis & Envelope of Function work
2017 - 80+% cured thanks to Dr Dye's research
2017 - first small triathlon in 5yrs
2017 - back to 30% of training volume - that'll do!

Offline cspike2

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Re: New/old forum participant trying to find resources regarding PFPS
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 06:58:45 PM »
So did you just take celebrex and minimize knee usage? 
Over the years I have only tried glucosamine/chondroitin.  I took this for quite some time so it's hard to tell if it worked or not.  Part of me feels that it did as I had long periods of minimal pain/swelling.  I tried Hyalgan twice, back when it consisted of three injections of the course of a couple weeks.  The first time I tried it, it was amazing.  My knees felt like they were in their 20's again.  The feeling only lasted about 3 weeks maybe a month as I, of course, abused the good feeling.  I think I did one or two time trials and a few mountain bike races, and did well.  I believe I had to wait 6 months before trying it again due to insurance.  The second time I tried it did nothing noticeable.  Over the years it has just been the glucosamine though.  I feel like the standing desk has helped too.  I walked to work this morning in the rain, about 2 miles, and so far no issues.

It's funny you make the "bone to bone" comment.  After seeing Dr. Dye, I have become hyper aware of how my knees are feeling, and that is exactly how I feel about my left knee.  Without having arthro on it to see what it looks like, I know I have a hole in the cartilage from my surgery last surgery, but it would be interesting to see how that has progressed.

Thanks for the links and info to look up.  I will take a look. 

 















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