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Author Topic: rHgH dosage for intra-articular injections & improving stem cell treatment.  (Read 22393 times)

Offline DennisF

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Hi Everyone,

First, thanks to all the contributors and those who have made this resource available.

If you have had rHgH injections intra-articularly which were themselves or in combination with other therapies successful could you please post the dose you received in IU or mg (1 mg rHgH = 3 IU) and the frequency of injections and the total number you received. I have read on other posts that Dr Dunn (iagh.com) uses between 15-45 IU per injection and that others use 1 IU (though some thought this was much too little).

I live in Australia and am receiving weekly intra-articular PRP injections for both knees due to deep chondral fissuring and chondral wear. I have had three injections so far and the results have been interesting. I am noticing much less pain and the pain I feel is less intrusive somehow; more like the pain of a sore muscle or sprain than the deep pain I was experiencing before. Also, instead of the depressing feeling that something was wrong in my knees I've begun to feel the opposite is true.

My doctor and I have discussed the use of rHgH in conjunction with PRP. There seems to be solid evidence for rHgH stimulating chondrogenesis and, as many of you would know, there is also much anecdotal evidence for PRP's effectiveness and evidence of chondrogenesis in animal models. He feels that rHgH and PRP would work well together. Unfortunately here in Australia there is little experience with this so I'm hoping others can help me figure out what doses I should take.

Ideally I'd be marching off to Regenexx and getting the stem cell treatment but it's too expensive and would involve a major disruption to my life and work.

By the way, for those following stem cell developments, I saw an article today about a method developed by an Australian university that involves culturing stem cells in a contact lens which is placed over damaged corneas. The stem cells migrate onto the cornea and become corneal cells. A woman's eyesight was restored using this method. I wonder if a similar technique could be used in conjunction with arthroscopy to deliver a stem cell saturated absorbable scaffold, like the contact lens, directly to an area of chondral wear. The material would have to be adhered to the cartilage somehow while the transfer of cells occurred. Perhaps such a technique, directly applying the cells to the area without a cover and with minimal loss of cells to the synovial fluid and surrounding tissue, would mean considerably shortened rehabilitation times.
KNEES: Complex medial meniscus tear and deep lateral femoral condyle fissure on LHS, chondral ulceration to 50% depth on RHS. Also possible hip arthritis.

Offline irentat

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Dennis,

I posted regarding the IU quantity from Dr. Dunn.  As a reference, I have used 15 IU in my ankle every time I received a shot.  I got a total of 7 in my left and 6 in my right.  Specifically, 1 mg = 2.7 IU.  I have had Omnitrope as well as Humatrope injected.  I suggest only the best quality stuff, not Chinese.  Don't take a chance.

The knee is bigger and generally would require more.  There is no formal documentation that has been released to the public on this that I have found.  Dr. Dunn is still working on it and not sure if he will ever release.

2 things to consider:
because the rHGH is fragile, don't directly mix rHGH with anything but would add in a separate alternative to your PRP from one visit to the next.  Mixing the modalities I think would only be beneficial.

Research how much you feel comfortable with and go with it.  I started feeling comfortable with the volume when I research how much body builders will take.  Basically, it can't hurt you at such low doses.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 05:21:34 PM by irentat »

Offline NikkiE

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Hi Dennis

I'm in a similar position to you. I'm currently having PRP injections and they have made a big difference in my pain levels (I can sleep at night - hooray!). It is a huge boost to your feeling of wellbeing.

I'm very curious to know who your doctor is. I have done lots of internet searching and havent come across anybody using HGH for the treatment of arthritis in Australia - would you mind messaging me their name?

(Would love to give regennex a go too - but financially and timewise it is not do-able.)

Cheers
Chondromalacia in right knee for 13 years. 

OA in medial section of right knee, almost bone on bone.

OA in medial section of left knee

Offline NikkiE

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Dennis I was about to reply to your post from yesterday but it seems to have disappeared!

« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:52:05 AM by NikkiE »
Chondromalacia in right knee for 13 years. 

OA in medial section of right knee, almost bone on bone.

OA in medial section of left knee

Offline DennisF

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For some reason my last post has disappeared from this thread. Anyone know why?
KNEES: Complex medial meniscus tear and deep lateral femoral condyle fissure on LHS, chondral ulceration to 50% depth on RHS. Also possible hip arthritis.

Offline DennisF

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In abbreviated form this is the gist of what I wrote:

Thanks to NikkiE & Irentat for responding.

Results from weekly PRP therapy, intra-articular into knees: decreased intensity of pain, change in quality of pain (formerly intrusive now more like the pain of a muscle sprain).

Thoughts on improving therapy:
1. Adding rHgH as it is a known agent of chondrogenesis and causes chondrocytes to respond to IGF-1, one of the growth factors in platelets. Suspect that though HgH is a fragile molecule whatever mechanical forces it experiences in the syringe mixed with PRP would be less than those experienced in the knee. Thoughts, Irentat?

2. Suspect non-weight bearing is important for optimum results: Dr Dunn requires non- or reduced weight bearing of his patients. Irentat, you say you've had great results without rest. How long have you been getting PRP? How many injections altogether approximately? What exactly are you receiving treatment for? Do you mind me asking what the costs are for your HgH injections? (Forgive me for not researching this but I'm in a bit of a hurry trying to put this post together again after it disappeared.)

rHgH in Australia:
Only available as a government subsidised medicine for a small number of conditions, e.g. childhood growth disorders. Research so far suggests that it can be prescribed for other conditions but without the subsidy resulting in a cost of approximately $1300 for 24mg or 60 IU (according to Irentat's calculations). The brand is Humatrope by Eli Lilly. My chemist is waiting to find out whether he is able to fill a prescription for it. Says orders go directly to Eli Lilly. I am aware of rHgH being prescribed here for use as a rejuvenative in HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy).

I'm sure I've missed something. Will address NikkiE's question via private message.



KNEES: Complex medial meniscus tear and deep lateral femoral condyle fissure on LHS, chondral ulceration to 50% depth on RHS. Also possible hip arthritis.

Offline irentat

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Thoughts on improving therapy:
1. Adding rHgH as it is a known agent of chondrogenesis and causes chondrocytes to respond to IGF-1, one of the growth factors in platelets. Suspect that though HgH is a fragile molecule whatever mechanical forces it experiences in the syringe mixed with PRP would be less than those experienced in the knee. Thoughts, IrentatThe issue I brought up was regarding mixing HGH with anything within the syringe.  As far as I know, there is not available information on what will or will not break down the very fragile HGH molecule so don't mix it with things like B12 or something similar.
2. Suspect non-weight bearing is important for optimum results: Dr Dunn requires non- or reduced weight bearing of his patients. Irentat, you say you've had great results without rest. How long have you been getting PRP? How many injections altogether approximately? What exactly are you receiving treatment for? Do you mind me asking what the costs are for your HgH injections? (Forgive me for not researching this but I'm in a bit of a hurry trying to put this post together again after it disappeared.)  I got HGH shots initially and moved to PRP (2 each in each ankle) around Dec-Jan timeframe.  I am getting treatment for cartilage degradation.  Almost complete denuding of the joint but now focusing on rebuilding the ligaments, which originally caused the issue.rHgH in Australia:
Only available as a government subsidised medicine for a small number of conditions, e.g. childhood growth disorders. Research so far suggests that it can be prescribed for other conditions but without the subsidy resulting in a cost of approximately $1300 for 24mg or 60 IU (according to Irentat's calculations). The brand is Humatrope by Eli Lilly. My chemist is waiting to find out whether he is able to fill a prescription for it. Says orders go directly to Eli Lilly. I am aware of rHgH being prescribed here for use as a rejuvenative in HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy).

I'm sure I've missed something. Will address NikkiE's question via private message.





Offline DennisF

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Thanks, Irentat :)

I also have had PRP in my ankle. It has responded beautifully (3rd shot today but noticed a great change in the week after the first shot). I suspect this is for two reasons: my ankle cartilage is not in as bad a shape as my knee cartilage and the tightness of the ankle joint and proximity of surfaces allows the PRP to hit the required spot far more easily than the knee.

Not being an expert I have no real idea what I'm talking about but I suspect that when PRP is injected into the synovial fluid of the knee it is more widely dispersed through the relatively large volume of liquid. This and the large surface area of the knee joint surface may mean less direct contact between the PRP growth factors and the area of damage.

Dennis.
KNEES: Complex medial meniscus tear and deep lateral femoral condyle fissure on LHS, chondral ulceration to 50% depth on RHS. Also possible hip arthritis.

Offline NikkiE

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Re: rHgH dosage for intra-articular injections & improving stem cell treatment.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2009, 04:55:12 AM »
Hi Dennis
I just wondered if you ended up getting the HGH done or if you just stuck with PRP. How are things working out for you?
Chondromalacia in right knee for 13 years. 

OA in medial section of right knee, almost bone on bone.

OA in medial section of left knee

Offline DennisF

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Re: rHgH dosage for intra-articular injections & improving stem cell treatment.
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 11:51:15 AM »
Hi NikkiE,

I've been sticking with the PRP therapy for now because

1. It's cheap.
2. rHgH is expensive.
3. In Australia you need permission from Eli Lilly to use rHgH for this and
4. If I did the whole rHgH thing following Dr Dunn's (iagh.com) protocol I'd need to keep my weight off the knee for at least a few weeks.
5. I've noticed a gradual improvement in knee symptoms since starting therapy.

I should add that I'm going easy on both knees (little to no jogging or jumping) and I attempt to keep the knee with meniscal tear from bending past 90 degrees just in case the PRP might also help the meniscus to heal. I'm getting another MRI done in a few weeks which can be compared with the one from a year ago. That will allow me to give a more objective response. You might be interested to know my mother's started PRP for her knee cartilage and says she has noticed a big difference.

Another thing I'm interested in is jellyfish mucin and hyaluronic acid. If you do a search you'll find some interesting articles on experiments done in Japan at Tokai University.

KNEES: Complex medial meniscus tear and deep lateral femoral condyle fissure on LHS, chondral ulceration to 50% depth on RHS. Also possible hip arthritis.

Offline NikkiE

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Re: rHgH dosage for intra-articular injections & improving stem cell treatment.
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2009, 11:47:50 PM »
Hi Dennis
Thats terrific thats it working for you. Its fabulous that you can jog even a little. I'd be interested to see if your MRI shows any cartilage growth. I havent heard of the jellyfish thing but will be sure to look it up.
Chondromalacia in right knee for 13 years. 

OA in medial section of right knee, almost bone on bone.

OA in medial section of left knee

Offline ashok_guru

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Hi Guys,

I just happened to read this thread.
I have a similar conditions on my knee am planning to take PRP injections by Jun 11th.

Can you please answer few of my questions.

1. Is there a difference between HGH and rHGH ?
2. Are these PRP injections to the knee more painful ?
3. Please suggest is it better to take just the blood platelets or to have HGH along with blood platelets in the injections ?

Please share your experiences. I have a cartilage damage had couple of arthoscopic surgery which didnot help much am having immense pain and swelling in my right knee. Due to overuse of my left leg ..left knee also started paining.  ???

Please advise.

Thanks
Ashok
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline irentat

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Ashok,

all GH now is recombinant GH (rHGH).

PRP can be painful if the pH is not ajdusted before reinjection.

I would do both injections but separately.

Offline ashok_guru

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Hi irentat,

Thanks for your reply.
I really appreciate your help for sharing your experiences and information.

I did some research on these HGH and read some good and bad information especially with the side effects of using HGH.
Am bit worried on these side effects can you please let me know your thoughts on the below. Definitely am planning to talk to my doctor on this since you have already had this HGH injections am sure you would have done more research on these side effects. Please advise.

Thanks
Ashok


Side Effects of HGH
Use of HGH under medical supervision for HGH deficiency is safe and will have few side effects. The risk of side effects increase when HGH is taken in higher doses without any medical supervision.

The most common side effect of the excess use of HGH is acromegaly. This is a medical condition that begins with the overgrowth of facial bone and connective tissue, leading to a changed appearance due to protruding jaw and eyebrow bones. This condition also leads to an abnormal growth of the hands and feet with an increased growth of hair all over the body. Contrary to increasing your life, this condition will shorten life expectancy considerably.

Mentioned here are just some of the known side effects of the undue use of HGH.
-- Acromegaly (as described in detail above)
-- Premature death (in case of acromegaly)
-- Heart enlargement (due to prolonged use of HGH. Can't be reversed)
-- Low blood sugar with risk of going into a diabetic coma
-- Excessive hair growth all over the body
-- Excessive water retention
-- Liver damage
-- Thyroid damage

HGH should not be used by anyone with certain diseases as it may cause more severe side effects. Some of these diseases include:

Cancer
Liver Disease
Kidney Disease
Diabetes
Hypothyroidism
Pancreatic Disease
Scoliosis
Breathing Problems
Recent Stomach or Heart Surgery
2009 - Partial Meniscetomy
2010 - Cartilage Debridement
2010 - 2011 - Prolotherapy, PRP, Bone Marrow Prolotherapy, Prolozone
2011 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD and Regenexx-SCP
2012 - HGH Injections
2013 - Regenexx-PL, Regenexx SD, Regenexx-AD and Regenexx-SCP

Offline irentat

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I completely agree regarding the side effects.  Sadly they don't give the levels and for the period of time it takes to see these side effects.  Probably to scare you and keeping you from using it, which is common with such products (hormones and steroids in general).  Knowing what I know, I would not even begin to worry.  I have taken over 15 IU at one time each week for months at a time with no ill effects.  A common bodybuilding amount is about 6 IU daily taken 5 days on and 2 days off.  Some BBers do 20+ IU at a time a few times a week with no ill effects.   

Do some research on the common bodybuilding boards to gain some appreciation of the levels that many others are taking.  After that, you will be much more comfortable with GH.