PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments

[irentat]

I realize that you are just starting out and I have years to develop my own theory and practical application that worked for me.  That is the rub:  it worked for me but cannot prove it will work for everyone.  However it seems from many technical and research sources that my application does work for most everyone.

You should be able to fill that cartilage hole in under a year and be good to go, if you have a regimented protocol of consistent IA injections.  This is based on my ankles being in a complete state of decay, from which doctors say you cannot recover.  Yours is nothing.  I am finishing up year 4 of my recovery and am just now getting fully athletically capable.  If I knew then what I know now, my recovery would probably be under 3 years.

[memoryzero]

Ok, good info to know and makes me very optimistic. Do you know if Dr. Hauser does IA injections and is that expensive? I’m in Chicago and that would be very easy for me if he did.

[irentat]

Heard Hauser does GH IA injections but at like 2 IU.  That is NOTHING!  Plus you have to see him every time you want one so probably $200+ per visit plus your time to get to him.  I would research others in Chicago before I go to him.  don't even know if Hauser does Test injections.  I would go to one you can work with as compared to one that throws a protocol on you.

[memoryzero]

Ok, I have tried to find some others here in Chicago but don't see anyone else's name coming up. Is Hauser just not legit at this point?

[irentat]

I would say he is legit.  He even wrote a book.  I just think his practices don't parallel my needs and what I know works.  I am sure his techniques work but how well?  I would trust my doc to do more in less visits based on what I know of Hauser and what I have seen my prolotherapist do.

[vexen]

Hey Colin.

Basically from your arthro report you have no ligament laxity whatsoever, so your main issue is femoral hyaline cartilage and your lateral meniscus. These structures are located Intra-Articulairly. Basically all prolotherapy means is cell proliferation, in others words stimulating something to grow something new, or simply putting something new in there like a growth factor that attracts other growth factors and grows new tissue.

So Hauser always does IA injections using various things. From what I know he uses Dextrose/Sodium Morrhuate/Glucosamine/Zinc/Test/HGH and actually a bunch of other things too. So he will use a bunch of methods to regrow cartilage and actually he has regrown knees that were bone on bone there's a study on the journal of prolotherapy showing five case reports of people that went from bone on bone in both compartments back to whatever the standard is (I think it's about 4mm). Xrays and everything included.

Keep in mind though Ben's right, he does just throw protocals at you which means the caring part in caring medical is a little bit of an exageration because he will run the same drills on most people which means he is probably not to person specfic. But he obviously does get results if you look into all the case reports. Seeing as you only need IA injections and there's no disadvantage to doing so one appointment probably won't hurt. Try a consultation atleast because I seriously think it will beat surgery.

Heck I've even seen a study where they regrew hyaline cartilage in rabbits using only dextrose, vitamine c, and an amino acid complex. Very cheap stuff, very easy to do. There's a huge number of substances that have the potential to do the job. Add to the fact that you're athletic, you will probably respond quickly as athletes respond very fast from my experience and from all the research I've read.

Let us know what you choose to do and keep us up to date.

[flowride]

I've spoken with one of his patients who posts on this board and from what I'm to understand, Hauser will shoot you up with just about anything you want.  The question becomes, "Will he use the right amounts?" 

I am wondering about the course of recovery outlined by Regenexx.  While I am going to a Regenexx approved MD, the recovery-I'm told-would be the same outline as if I'd planned my injections with Regenexx.  They are suggesting NON-WEIGHT BEARING for 2 weeks.  From what I can recall about stem cell therapy, they like having LOAD.  I'm not talking about dropping 405 on a squat rack and repping out, mind you, but what about stationary cycling...short walks?  I've been relegated simply to pool work for the first two weeks and pretty much thereafter, with an 8 week recovery regimen.  My concern is, without enough work, won't they just die?

I've also been thinking a great deal about the HGH/Testosterone regimen.  I am comfortable with the idea of using it for this specific purpose (have been dead set against steroids as a weightlifter), but also have questions on where the hell you get this stuff?!? 

[fastglycolytic]

I had the Regenexx SD done back in Sept for my right knee. There has been some improvement. I also have had talks with Irentat and after a couple of months started injecting testosterone into my knee. So I can't account for how much improvement is attributable to Regenexx and testosterone or perhaps it is the combination. My left knee needs work too. Lack of cartilage under both knee caps. I found a prolo therapist 35 min away from my house who also does stem cell injections from fat as well as PRP. So I tried the fat stem cells out in my left. And I have been injecting testosterone into that knee as well. It has only been 5 weeks since the fat stem cell injection and today I got PRP injected into that knee. Tomorrow I will hit it with the testosterone.

The challenge with all this stuff is nobody has a definite time line you can rely on in terms of how long it will take to grow enough cells that will give you significant improvement. We all have varying circumstances. Now of the practitioners seem to have a set recommendation for what is the optimal amount of loading to stimulate the cartilage growth. I always error on the side on not loading too much actively, but rely on lots of passive motion. So riding a stationary bike with little to no resistance would probably be fine. Compression also is how cartilage receives its nutrition and gets stimulated, so you could try isometrics at various joint angles, gradually increasing the load compression over time.

[flowride]

I found a prolo therapist 35 min away from my house who also does stem cell injections from fat as well as PRP. So I tried the fat stem cells out in my left. And I have been injecting testosterone into that knee as well. It has only been 5 weeks since the fat stem cell injection and today I got PRP injected into that knee. Tomorrow I will hit it with the testosterone.

Question: If you don't mind, where are you located that you've found a prolo doing fat derived stem cell injections?  Also, what does he charge for that procedure, as well as the testosterone injections?  Unfortunately, I have yet to find an MD in L.A. who will do the testosterone/HGH injections.

[Affliction79]

Irentat,
Maybe I missed it on the thread, but I was wondering what size syringe I would need to use to inject the test suspension into my knee?

[vexen]

Hey Affliction,

One link I sent you before said a 25G 1.5" needle. I've used a 27G 1.5" and a 23G 3" needle. 1.5" should be the minimum for the knee I reckon anyway. Maybe you'd need a larger guage because test will probably clog the needle.

[ashok_guru]

Affliction79, Are you planning inject Test by yourself into your knee ?

[fastglycolytic]

Hey Flowride

Her name is Donna Alderman, http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm. She has one office in Nor Cal and one down south in Valencia. She has been doing prolo for about 20 years, knows Dr. Hauser quite well. I sent her the prolo articles regarding gh and test (I got them from Irentat). When I asked if she would consider incorporating gh or test in her practice she said she is always willing to add something provided there has been research or empirical evidence to warrant its use. She currently feels that PRP and stem cells have a stronger cell signaling ability because they are our own cells and that the test and gh would not have that ability. But I think I read somewhere that they in fact might have some cell signalling function.

The version of fat stem cell protocol that she uses is to take out about 1 tablespoon of fat, let it decant, then mix it with the prp. Then she irritates the area of concern with a needle and procaine, followed by injecting the fat prp mixture. I had a fat derived stem cell treatment back in Dec of 2010 from David Steenblock (http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm). This was much different. I am lean to begin with so I had to drink 2 pints of cream a day to gain about 25 lbs so they would have something to extract. They got 40cc of fat, but hoped for 60cc. This got processed and the finished product was mixed with prp. I didn't get any change from that treatment. If you read the Regenexx site they feel the bone marrow derived stem cells are the best suited for morphing into cartilage and that it is not all about the number of cells you inject. The practitioners who support the fat derived stem cell procedures do so because fat is supposed to have many more stem cells. Google Timothy Peace, Terry Grossman.

The cost of the fat stem cell + prp was 3000. Regenexx is about 6-8K. When I did Regenexx I had to be in Colorado for 8 days. So driving only 35 minutes and not having hotel/plane expenses made me want to give it a try. When I did just the prp yesterday that was 885. She also uses ultra sound guidance. If you go to see her find out when Randy is there. He is an MD friend of hers that helps her out with the ultra sound. He is a whiz with the ultrasound. He gets the right view and she injects. I considered that combo to be a bonus.

You would probably be better learning to inject your own testosterone. It will be much much cheaper. The growth hormone is pretty expensive so on Irentat's advice I went with the test. Get some good anatomy books too. I use a 22 gauge needle to prevent clogging. If you mix a little methylcobolamin  (vit b-12) with the test in the syringe it reduces the viscosity. I am sure if someone were to offer classes in how to inject you own knee there would be many people from this site that would sign up.

Bryan

I though I would give Dr. Alderman's approach a shot. Only time will tell.

[flowride]

Hey Flowride

Her name is Donna Alderman, http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm. She has one office in Nor Cal and one down south in Valencia. She has been doing prolo for about 20 years, knows Dr. Hauser quite well. I sent her the prolo articles regarding gh and test (I got them from Irentat). When I asked if she would consider incorporating gh or test in her practice she said she is always willing to add something provided there has been research or empirical evidence to warrant its use. She currently feels that PRP and stem cells have a stronger cell signaling ability because they are our own cells and that the test and gh would not have that ability. But I think I read somewhere that they in fact might have some cell signalling function.

The version of fat stem cell protocol that she uses is to take out about 1 tablespoon of fat, let it decant, then mix it with the prp. Then she irritates the area of concern with a needle and procaine, followed by injecting the fat prp mixture. I had a fat derived stem cell treatment back in Dec of 2010 from David Steenblock (http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloshaw.htm). This was much different. I am lean to begin with so I had to drink 2 pints of cream a day to gain about 25 lbs so they would have something to extract. They got 40cc of fat, but hoped for 60cc. This got processed and the finished product was mixed with prp. I didn't get any change from that treatment. If you read the Regenexx site they feel the bone marrow derived stem cells are the best suited for morphing into cartilage and that it is not all about the number of cells you inject. The practitioners who support the fat derived stem cell procedures do so because fat is supposed to have many more stem cells. Google Timothy Peace, Terry Grossman.

The cost of the fat stem cell + prp was 3000. Regenexx is about 6-8K. When I did Regenexx I had to be in Colorado for 8 days. So driving only 35 minutes and not having hotel/plane expenses made me want to give it a try. When I did just the prp yesterday that was 885. She also uses ultra sound guidance. If you go to see her find out when Randy is there. He is an MD friend of hers that helps her out with the ultra sound. He is a whiz with the ultrasound. He gets the right view and she injects. I considered that combo to be a bonus.

You would probably be better learning to inject your own testosterone. It will be much much cheaper. The growth hormone is pretty expensive so on Irentat's advice I went with the test. Get some good anatomy books too. I use a 22 gauge needle to prevent clogging. If you mix a little methylcobolamin  (vit b-12) with the test in the syringe it reduces the viscosity. I am sure if someone were to offer classes in how to inject you own knee there would be many people from this site that would sign up.

Bryan

I though I would give Dr. Alderman's approach a shot. Only time will tell.

Bryan,

Thank you VERY much for the info.  As for the anatomy books...either me or my wife should have them.  We're both in the medical field, just not MD's.  I might have to talk with your doc, in addition to the folks at Regenexx.  At the very least, it's another option and much like yourself with a NorCal location, Valencia is only about 20-30 mins from my house.  $800 or so seems to be about the going rate in CA for PRP.  Other areas of the country, it seems to be less.  My prolo doc charges about the same.

I've read the articles supporting marrow vs. adipose, but there is information coming at you in both directions that I feel we're almost on overload trying to figure out which is actually the best choice.  My biggest fear is wasting my time, engergy, and money, only to face the knife and reality of a PKR/TKR and the subsequent lifestyle change one would incur as a result. 

In any event, I wish you continued success with your treatment. 

Mike

[fastglycolytic]

Hi Mike

Glad to help. You are right too much conflicting info out there. We can only go by our experiences as to what does and doesn't work. I know the Regenexx has helped. It will take multiple treatments though. I am interested to see how Alderman's use of fat stem cells turns out.

If you go to the articular cartilage repair section on knee guru you will find a stem cell section. It has a ton of posts about different stem cells clinics (like Regenexx) and patient experiences. Google Dr. Saw, here is a link http://www.klsmc.com/component/content/article/7-english-news/99-the-star-online-generating-new-cartilage.html. He really seems to have the best approach to date. Keep us updated on your progress.

Bryan