PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments

[irentat]

Hi,
has anyone seen real results with HGH or testo injection? Maybee even seen cartilage growing in MRI pics?
Another question would, are women around here, who have tried it? What about general risk of developing cancer due to repeated injection of these hormons?
Another question: has anyone heards about FGF?

Yes I have seen real results proven by MRI.  Went from 0 to 2.5 MM in the worst area in about 2 years.  It has now been about 4 since I started my journey and everything only gets better.  I ended up focusing on GH and Test. 

GH is naturally occuring.  What you are doing in the joint is not something to worry about because you won't take it every day.  Test in the joint is aqueous so leaves the system in 8 hours plus again it is intermittent.  Growth factors are everywhere.  IGF-1 is the most promintent and will rebuild cartilage also and yes they are found with cancer cells.  Good question on the cancer.  Even better question, knowing hormones exist naturally as does cancer in your body, what is worth getting your life back?

[carty]

Thank for your reply. Well that's exactly the question, what is worth it? I really do not know yet.

Sure there ist even in my female body hgh, igf and testo. Yet, I know from my athletic background the devastating side effects of testo and hgh used for doping female athlets, eben in small dosages. (Of cause I never did this.) Cause if you inject it's not the natural concentration in the body any more.

I ask for MRI, cause apart from the fact, that we all want that nice white tissue back, I know from people who juice that as long as they juice, their muscles feel much, much stronger and they often feel kinds untouchable in a why that they can sustain more than without jiuce. So the question is, if knee improvement comes from new cartilage or mainly from oldfashioned doping.


I'm 32 years ypoung, my husband and me want to have children soon. Now I have to shift plans anyway, because of my knee. If I get cartilage surgery, I need one year, if I get injection somehow, I also need to wait. Only that stuff needs to get out of my body, there must not be any long term effects on my hormon system.

FYI:
Okay, I have found an research project, that offers something to patients. Infos on the webside are not clear what. Just information about stem cell and growth factor procedure or even treatment. It's a big university and clinic in my country, so I phoned around through the burocratic jungle. Now I have an adress, where I can send an email with my questions and medical record and another lady wants to speak to the professor leading that project and call me back after easter holidays.

She ask me, what I'm interested in and I said, well first I need to know, what the project is offering. Then she ask me, if I'm interested in stem cell therapy. I said yes, but I absolutely do not know if they are offering this at all. She ask me to give my number and she will call me back with further information.

So it is still unlear what they are offering at all. Even reliable information would be great. I have read a lot of science articles on the topic of stem cells, igf and stuff. It definately seems to be promising. I think it will be the futur of cartilage repair. There is a huge EU-call/-project (GAMBA) onging to research on stem cells for OE.

As I reported in another thread, there is only one clinic in my country who is offering stem cells right now for OE and first they seem a bit, well... I ask them already, thy only treat persons who have already such a bad condition to need TKR.

So I start thinking I might seriously take that road, if I get the opportunity. I will see what thos guys from the research project tell me. Yet there is the problem, via Internet I found not a single doctor in my country, who explicitly offers igf-injection and therefor could talk about results. Think because of our legal situation it might not be able to have that treatment here.


@irentat: Do you mind to tell me something about yourself (age, gender, activity level), your knee (which defects) and your injection scheme (how often, how much, who is injecting)? Or is there a link, where you posted about that before? I would love to learn about that.

Have you experienced other anabolic effects, aside from cartilage growth? Side effects? Have you used CPM or crutches to promote growth when injecting?


Another question I have: If that stuff helps growing, why it just promotes growning cartilage? What about menisci and lingaments? What I mean is.. how does it NOT promote unwanted growth of kne structures? have your ACL and PCL, menisci changed in MRI?


Okay thats a lot of questions.
If anyone is interested, I will keep you update about that research project.

[irentat]

Carty,
44 and active now with no pain living a normal life.  4 years ago I could barely walk.  It is my ankles (both).  Look through all of my posts on this thread and you will get all the details  you need on how much and how often. 

No need for crutches, just keep injecting. 

The body knows when it is damaged and where. This is why there is not any excessive growth of normal parts.

[ashok_guru]

Hi Irentat,

Good to see  you after a long time.

I went to Miami to meet Dr. Dunn for his IAGH treatment, but he told me that I should be non-weight bearing for 3 months while taking this HGH injections. I guess you followed his protocol, so you weren't on crutches for this 3 months duration.

Thanks

[irentat]

Ashok and you too.

knees for Dunn's protocol is to be off completely.  I was 2 months off and 5 months in a brace but could still walk but this is for ankles.  Again, remember Dunn is trying to do the most healing in the least amount of time with the least amount of shots.  I recovered my right ankle, which was just a bad, by just injections of GH and Test while walking on it normally.  It just required more over a longer period of time to get the same results.

[babind]

Hi All, i'm new to this forum. sorry, if this post is not in right place.


i have problems in both knees,  in right from accident and surgeries and post surgeries complications.

Right Knee : Femorotibial compartmental osteoarthritis  Have lost patella to post surgery infection and have a muscle flap on knee from calf muscle using extensor mechanism. This was done to cover knee as post surgery the skin on top of knee became dead and could not heal and exposed knee joint.

Left Knee :

MRI of left knee says that "Thin medial parapatellar plica and scarring of the posterior medial meniscocapsular junction without associated meniscal tear of focally advanced cartilage loss.  I dont even understand much of what it means except that i have sharp pain around patella for some time. my pain was bad for 3 days but then it improved with some physical therapy. I had to stop physical therapy earlier as it was giving me continuous pain than relief on the advice of HSS doc. But even now have pain for some time every day.  I have to walk for about 1.5 to 2 miles every day as part of my commute.
The physical therapy is certainly not helping 100%


My current focus is on left knee which did not have any surgery or injury. the problem appeared because of overuse (at least that what doc at HSS, new york says) and i want to treat this knee first.

i have been following this forum with interest in cartilage regeneration.

my questions are
1. should i go to Dr Hauser(considering he is good) for prolotherapy + PRP/HGH , considering i'm on east cost and then have to fly or get it done somewhere here in NJ or NY.
2. i got a cost estimate from Dr hauser, it was 355 (approx) for prolo + 250 (new patient fee) + 400 for PRP and HGH.  Is this what guys here paid
3. if i fly to Dr Hauser clinic, will there be any downside of flying back same day assuming i have PRP e.g. will flying reduce effectiveness of PRP injections.?
4.  my fitness regime before pain in knees was only going for 2-3 miles of walk every day. Considering this, how much time should i give to knee exercises like walking or something like that as i can't bike because ROM of right knee is less than 90? 


also, thinking of talking to Dr Dunn to see if something can be done without surgery of left knee as can't afford to be on crutches for 3 or  more months

thanks,

[irentat]

I would suggest finding a prolotherapist near you.  I have seen Hauser's technique and consider it barbaric.  He is open to ideas but is still conservative.  There is more than one technique with prolo.  Someone close would probably get you just as good...or better help.

Read this thread and you will understand there is more than Hauser and Dunn.  Whatever you do, you won't need to be on crutches for months.

[ashok_guru]

I was a patient of Dr. Hauser. I was from New Jersey and use to fly to chicago monthly for his Prolotherapy/PRP/Bone Marrow injection almost for a year.
To be honest please dont go to him. I didnot find any relief by his methods or his prolo injections. I lost lot of money in flight travels/hotels + the treatment cost. I dont mind to fly anywhere to get good treatment but please dont go to him. Lots of his methods are questionable which I came to know recently and it doesn't work atleast on me.

If you want to try Prolotherapy/PRP, you can try to locate somebody near you.

I also went to Miami, to meet Dr. Dunn but he recommended me for a surgery and strict 3 months non-weight bearing protocol. At this point am not interested in undergoing another surgery and also flying to Miami for a weekly injection for about 12 weeks may not work for me because of the nature of my job. But Dr.Dunn has a proven track record I met some of his patients when I was there they are doing good with their ankle and knee problems.

Adding to that, last year in August 2011, I had a stem cell injection Regenexx-SD it helped a bit but not to the level of my expectations and still struggling with my right knee cartilage defect.

[vexen]

I would suggest finding a prolotherapist near you.  I have seen Hauser's technique and consider it barbaric.  He is open to ideas but is still conservative.  There is more than one technique with prolo.  Someone close would probably get you just as good...or better help.

Read this thread and you will understand there is more than Hauser and Dunn.  Whatever you do, you won't need to be on crutches for months.

Hi, I've posted my own background story on a different forum you used to frequent detailing the products and modalities you used in various logs you wrote, so I won't go into it here.

I found this statement about Dr Hauser intriguing and was wondering why you felt that way? Not to be challenging or anything, I am just genuinely curious.

After having had about 100-200 prolotherapy injections in the UK using P2G as a proliferent, I decided to teach myself prolo. I've read a ton of papers, researched all the available books, dvds, etc. Studied anatomy and biomechanics for hours/days on end. Essentially I've been trying a lot of different modalities out on my self out of neccesity.

The reason I mention all this is because during this time I discovered that Hauser's method is in fact a complete beginners method of injecting. It differs from the more advanced methods (there are about six methods I know of at this point, and it varies per practitioner). Also although he calls it Hackett-Hemwell Prolotherapy, it is completely different from the techniques Dr Hackett taught in his books. The amount of injections he gives isn't too unusual (atleast based on his videos uploaded to caringmedical on youtube), however his technique is a bit strange for someone with so many years experience.

I would like to offer advice based on my experiences to the guys on here still in a lot of pain, but really before I write those things I would just say read through this thread and google Irentat's name and read some of his logs. Go to journalofprolotherapy.com and read everything. Those are good places to start, and just keep researching from there. Just read read read because there are people who have come back from what Dr's told them were hopeless situations. Start researching anatomy because you need to know what is going on inside and around your knee. MRI's and Ultrasound cannot tell you everything, especially if there are problems at the Enthesis. Most Drs I have come accross need to google their anatomy, they know where to look but don't know things off hand that they absolutely should (it is frightening to encounter an Orthopedic surgeon who does not know what the Arcuate ligament of the knee is).

Anyway good luck guys. Hope to hear your thoughts Irentat.

[irentat]

Vexen,
Appreciate the reference.  I truly feel the need to expose people to other ideas and hopefully help a few go a different path.  Your idea of reading and learning is right on.  I have done my hours also and feel competent now with IA injections but not ligament manipulation yet.

Regarding Hauser, he seems to just "jab" and inject rather than subtlly appraching each ligament attachement site that is specific to the joint.  Very fast and can treat many people quickly plus it is easier to learn.

My prolotherapist has his own style he has developed over the years and agree with it.  He very specifically finds and "manipulates" (finely tapping over and over) on an attachment site with any number of proliferants.  Both the physical process of invading the attachment site as well as very specific amounts of proliferant being delivered at the same time creates faster healing, I feel.  His method is time consuming and he won't teach anyone because he does not want the liability.  Additionally, his IA injections will be any number of compounds and is open to new ideas I expose him to.  I feel his method of using testosterone in the joint is one of the best. 

[vexen]

Cool stuff man, very interesting to read. I think Hauser's idea of comprehensively targeting all the affected areas is good, but I agree with your assessment in that he basically just has a set "product" a sort of repetetive procedure preparred for each joint (as an example, if you watch the three knee vids he's uploaded he'll do the same areas for all three patients using thr exact same method).

There's a lot of stuff out there and there is definately more than just Hauser/Dunn/Regenexx. Also even if you're getting "dextrose prolotherapy" or "P2G", there are so many more proliferants. I remember reading an article by a Dr working in the NFL. He stated that he re-grew the Ulna Collateral Ligament of a player that was 60% torn/ruptured using dextrose/rHGH/IGF-1 into the ligament. Good luck getting your average prolotherapist to give you a ligamentous injection using that proliferant.

Here's a really cool article on Testosterone Suspension and rHGH used at the enthesis of ligaments to repair them.
http://www.journalofprolotherapy.com/index.php/the-use-of-testosterone-and-growth-hormone-for-prolotherapy/

So actually these two substances can be used not just Intra-articulairly but also on ligaments and tendons as well, as their are receptors for these hormones/growth factors.

A lot of my research has shown me that although a lot of rely on the results of our Xrays/MRIs, and even in some cases Ultrasound, this imaging software/hardware will very often miss things. So although your MRI may reveal tendinopathy of the Patella ligament, Chondromalacia of the medial Patella, there may be five other structures that have now become chronically lax and are no longer trying to repair themselves. This may be one of the reasons your PRP shots/dextrose shots, etc didn't achieve the results you were expecting.

Another aspect may be related to healing deficit. As Irentat told us in this thread, it wasn't until many years after he suffered major injuries that he discovered he had Hemochromatosis, so there may always be underlying autoimmune problems. That aside there are also nutritional aspects, metabolic aspects to consider. Dr Marc Darrow gave some interesting seminars regarding this aimed at the general public.

Prolotherapy lecture (general useful info)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIiwtNrcUyM&feature=plcp&context=C4077321VDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu-gxu-r3nzMb6e4FHBYYDpM%3D

Pain and Inflamation lecture (good nutritional info in here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nln3_BSTkww&feature=plcp&context=C49ef0cbVDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu-DyVmu2zOP3dowVvmmf37k=

Fibromyalgia lecture (more nutritional and hormone based info)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl7MJJkZekg&feature=plcp&context=C485350cVDvjVQa1PpcFMegtMYa8oXu8FZK-7UEXshivOipLx_vZE=

So yeah there's a lot more that can be said about physical therapy, exercise, working on dynamic mobility, static flexibility, and overall metabolic recovery and how this can also improve healing. I could really go on and on here and keep adding info, but hopefully these are good places for people to start (hopefully lol).

Good luck to you guys that want to go further into these things, and just don't want to give up and get that TKR and just settle for less than that which they really want to achieve.

------------------------------------------------

Irentat,
regarding ligament injections, I've got a pretty decent amount of material at this point, and am willing/wanting to share it. Drop me a PM if you're interested in any of it, although by the sounds of it you're beyond the point of needing to do your own tendons/ligament injections, but I guess more learning material is never a bad thing really. Let me know what you think.

[Affliction79]

Irentat,
sorry I havn't replied, been off the board for quite a while now. I didn't end up going to Phoenix yet for the testosterone treatments. My Doc in Calgary practices out of Arizona Prolotherapy in Scottsdale. I will keep everyone posted on my progress once I start. I will also be asking you numerous questions about the treatments. Once I get comfortable with my knowledge, I will start injecting myself with HGH and test, but for now, I will only depend on my doc. I have tri-compartmental osetoarthritis behind the knee cap, and dealing with an annoying tiny baker cyst in the back. I have been getting monthly Prolozone, hyaluronic acid, procaine and vitamin b12 shots for the last year. I had 8 loose bodies removed April last year. Since then the treatments have helped for the pain, but the underlying problem is still there, so I am ready for the next step. Also, my VMO has atrophied. My question for you Irentat is, will doing site injections in my VMO with test, igf or hgh help get back the lost muscle? I feel by having the strength back, I would have more support for the joint. Any info you could give me would help greatly, thanks

[ashok_guru]

Irentat, I was going through your post again on another forum and you have mentioned that you were taking mega dose of Vitamin C [3-5k] daily. Did that really help you with collagen repair ?
For how long you have been on this mega dose of vitamin C and did you had any side effects like stomach upset or something, just wanted to check...Thanks

[irentat]

Ashok,
Been on 3000 mg of Vit C for a few years now.  Knowing it is absolutely essential for collagen production, I am glad I take it and don't miss a day without swallowing a few pills of it.  Has it helped?  No idea but there is so much information on collagen and Vit C that you can make an assumption my recovery was helped by having the building blocks there.

Only side effect (none negative) is consistent regularity.  If constipated, just take 5000+ Vit C and you won't be any more.

[irentat]

Affliction,
The only injectable that I am aware of that site specifically buillds muscle is IGF.  Everything else noted impacts the whole body.  Don't see a reason not to try it but make sure and work out while taking it.  I could suggest other options but yours is worth a try.