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Author Topic: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments  (Read 160541 times)

Offline awfulknee88

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #270 on: May 18, 2011, 06:28:22 PM »
My left knee is suffering from serious tendonosis. I used to be an avid runner and soccer player and have not been able to consistenly run longer than a mile for more than once a week without severe pain. I have tried everything over the past 3 years starting with year 1: an open debridement, followed by PT: Year 2 I tried prolotherapy for about 2 months with no success and I also underwent 1 shot of PRP but I stopped because it was so expensive ($1000) and I didn't see any improvement after a month. The shot was given blind and no ultrasound was used which could be why it didn't go well. After all of this I caved and underwent another knee surgery last march in which I had my patellar tendon scoped and "cleaned up". My knee hasn't gotten any better a year since the surgery and I am clueless as to what to do. I cannot continue this lifestyle of not being able to be active. I am considering PRP again as the costs have gone down and is more affordable now. I am willing to try anything to get my knee better. In regards to the PRP, what is the typical amount of shots needed for a person such as myself whose condition is severe and degenerative. Also, what is the best duration to recieve the shots in to help make the healing process as effective as possible. As far as I know, my doctor only uses PRP and no additional substances such as HGH. Would it be beneficial to recieve a prolo shot in the time between getting the second PRP shot to continue to promote inflamation. Given my condition is PRP even worth me trying or is a more intensive surgery my best option? I am unsure of what to do at this point as I feel that I've tried everything. I can't make my quad stronger as the pain prevents my body from allowing it to properly fire. It has since atrophied to a 1/3rd the size of my other quad which is so much stronger than it now. Any advice or suggestions would help. I am a recent college grad who has just started full time employment so I am willing to try anythign that would prevent me from missing a month of work for knee surgery. Thanks for the help and let me know if anymore details would be helpful. I apologize if this post is poorly structured. This is my first time doing a blog like this.

Offline rob wilson

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #271 on: May 18, 2011, 10:04:02 PM »
FYI - there is prolotherapy (1 or 2 injections into the knee tendons) and then there is Hackett Hemwell prolotherapy (~ 20 injections of PRP, HGH, testosterone, prolotherapy / destrose, sodium murrahte, etc.). The results can be drastically different.

Check out www.caringmedical.com

Check out www.regenexx.com for stem cells as well.
1997-Bilateral debridement
1999-Lt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Rt knee trochlea paste graft
2000-Lt knee scar
2002-Lt knee ACI biopsy+plica
2002-Lt knee medial condyle abrasion+HGH
2002-Lt knee scar
2003-Rt knee trochlea abrasion+HGH
2005-Lt knee plica
2008 to present-Regenexx

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #272 on: May 19, 2011, 07:27:33 PM »
Awful,

Here are my comments based on what you wrote:
year 1, not surprised you got little/no relief.
Year 2, 2 prolo therapies is just getting started but then again, not all prolotherapists are the same.  Some are not very good and give the whole group a bad rep.
Year 3, OMG $1K for a PRP?!  I think PRP is good but there are better modalities and, I think, should be used when the recovery needs to be quick and the damage not that intense (think pro football and recovering from a sprain for next week)

You have given little info on the cartilage condition.  FYI, the tendon should be taken care of easily by a GOOD prolotherapist in just a few sessions.  Cartilage damage takes many years to fully recover but you can.  I am on my 3rd year of complete joint rebuilding in both ankles and things just get better and better but I also am constantly working on it with injections, PT, etc.

Offline helenhelen

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #273 on: May 25, 2011, 11:22:22 PM »
i was excited to read this (but have not yet gone through the entire thread), so i googled "prolotherapy toronto" (where i live) to see who offers it in toronto.

well, a bunch of surfing later, i came across this blog entry:
http://healthblog.ctv.ca/post/Trendy-athletic-therapy-may-not-have-any-benefit.aspx

this is actually my doctor who is taking care of my knees right now (he's a sports medicine doctor).

any thoughts?

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #274 on: May 26, 2011, 12:17:15 AM »
i was excited to read this (but have not yet gone through the entire thread), so i googled "prolotherapy toronto" (where i live) to see who offers it in toronto.

well, a bunch of surfing later, i came across this blog entry:
http://healthblog.ctv.ca/post/Trendy-athletic-therapy-may-not-have-any-benefit.aspx

this is actually my doctor who is taking care of my knees right now (he's a sports medicine doctor).

any thoughts?
I have had probably a hundred injections into my joints over the last 3 years (most being done by myself).  Based on the fact that I have had every method done that can rebuild cartilage in the joint, the order of benefit, for me, is: testosterone, dextrose, HGH, PRP.  Probably missing one or two in there and not going to try hylauronic acid or adequan.  Pretty much just do testosterone injections now with GH every once in a while.  BTW, joints coming back with a vengeance now that I am doing multiple injections weekly. 

Offline BackToStart

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #275 on: May 28, 2011, 01:46:16 AM »
Hey Irentat.

How are you able to do the injections yourself into the joint? Are you a doctor? Sometype of medical major? I Won't try this but am very interested how you are able to inject yourself. What solutions do you use?

Thanks!

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #276 on: May 28, 2011, 05:26:20 AM »
Hey Irentat.

How are you able to do the injections yourself into the joint? Are you a doctor? Sometype of medical major? I Won't try this but am very interested how you are able to inject yourself. What solutions do you use?

Thanks!
I don't advise anyone do self injections.  Only trying to convey that much more can be done to recover joints that "average" people just don't pursue.  Been researching joints and joint rebuilding for 3 years, but lately not as much as I feel I have a correct protocol for myself.

If you can easily reach the joint with one hand, you can inject.  Personally, I have only done ankles, knees, big toe and finger joints.  No medical training, just taught myself.  Cannot say I do it "per the book" but never miss the ankle.  Not sure on the knee accuracy however but big toe and fingers are very obvious.  Not sure what you mean by "what solutions do I use". 

I don't suggest anyone do what I do however.  Lots of research into what to inject, needle size, needle entry and how to keep the area clean was done ahead of time.  Not for the faint of heart.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:36:03 AM by irentat »

Offline soccer player

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #277 on: May 30, 2011, 04:20:35 AM »
I have read this site for over a year and have picked up a lot of useful information and options. I suffered from patella tendonitis and cartilage degrading behind the knee cap. I found prp works well for tendonitis but only if it is used with ultrasound to find the areas that need repaired otherwise it is not as effective. I  did stem cells in both knees with good results. The Dr used fat stem cells that were taken out that day spun for a couple of hours and injected back in with prp.
This improved the cartilage behind the knee cap. I had some miniscus pain which I am still working on. I have tried to get hgh shots but was declined by Drs in Orlando, I might have to go to Miami for this. I also found an equestrian drug called Pentosan which seems to be very impressive for cartilage repair. I have not tried this yet. Although I have improved using stem cells I am not yet 100%, but a lot better thanks to information on this site. I did read up on a new surgery technique for damaged cartilage which I will talk about later. So far i have had two knee scopes, one on each, and 7 prps and one stem cell on each knee.  The last prp I did was 7 weeks ago the Dr worked with me and injected around the area where the scoping surgery instruments entered, I have felt a lot better since this. ????  There is a lot of cures out there and this site is taking us in the right direction.

Thanks

Offline amoler

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #278 on: June 03, 2011, 09:21:30 PM »
I'm slated for PRP on Jun 28. Dr's office won't give me a straight answer on on what to expect the first few days after. Just getting them to confirm that I won't be able to take any meds for the pain except Tylenol was like pulling teeth. Anybody have some info on swelling/ pain/ flexibility from their PRP? I'm trying to guess on whether I'll be going to work on crutches the following day and whether the pain level is going to give me nights of no sleep. -That's a big issue because that's one of my migraine triggers - like I really need ungodly head pain on top of the knee issue  ::) I know "everybody's mileage may vary" but I trying to figure out best case/worst case scenarios.
'77- Rt knee menicus tear
'90 -2nd menscus tear
'91 -failed arthroscopy/partial menisectomy
patella dislocation 10/ 2010
Dx = grade 4 chondromalacia + synovitis + Meniscus tear + lax strained medial ligaments
Fall down the stairs 7/20/11 - mcl sprain + 2 meniscus tears

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #279 on: June 03, 2011, 09:57:46 PM »
I'm slated for PRP on Jun 28. Dr's office won't give me a straight answer on on what to expect the first few days after. Just getting them to confirm that I won't be able to take any meds for the pain except Tylenol was like pulling teeth. Anybody have some info on swelling/ pain/ flexibility from their PRP? I'm trying to guess on whether I'll be going to work on crutches the following day and whether the pain level is going to give me nights of no sleep. -That's a big issue because that's one of my migraine triggers - like I really need ungodly head pain on top of the knee issue  ::) I know "everybody's mileage may vary" but I trying to figure out best case/worst case scenarios.

PRP is acidic.  Make sure your doctor adjusts the pH to neutral.  If is not aware of this, tell him to call the manufacturer of the equipment for details. My PRP shots have not been very painful, if at all.

Offline Ollieboy

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #280 on: June 27, 2011, 03:08:51 AM »
Hi!

Been reading this thread for quite some time now and finally decided to join the discussion =)

Irentat, I'm very intrigued by some of your posts, lately you've written about testosterone injections intra articularly, can you say something more about that?
Which kind of T? How much? What is the purpose of testosterone within the joint? Sorry for all the questions at the same time..

Secondly I'm very intrested in the rehab training you did after Dr Dunn's iagh treatment. I will start to inject myself soon and just want to gather as much info as possible first. (i am a med student, so Im not completely lost, hehe)

Had a very bad micro fracture surgery 2 years ago and Im still trying to recover, (went from little pain while running 40mins+ outdoors to not being able to walk. Thought I was having a meniscus surgery only to wake up and find out that they had performed a micro fracture of the articular cartilage in the epicondyle..) no orthopedic in my country dares to touch it today.. Sigh, so I guess it's up to me to treat myself.

/Ollie
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 03:21:02 AM by Ollieboy »

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #281 on: June 27, 2011, 05:18:04 PM »
Ollie,
You are one up on me being a med student.

If you really want to do your own injections, like I do, you will be using testosterone suspension (aqueous).  I use about 50 mg per shot and got the best results doing the shots every 2-3 days or as often as possible.  However the perservative is a irritant after a while and you will have to slow down the shots.  I have done probably hundreds of different shots by this point and T had the most impact.  Do this protocol for a few months and I am pretty sure you will see results.  As a reference, I went from not being able to walk to being able to do full sprints without pain.  This took 3 years but both ankles had not cartilage left so a lot of rebuilding was needed.

In the joint, Testosterone converts into Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and is taken up by the androgen receptors in the cartilage (yes even cartilage has these receptors).  I cannot report on T's ability to repair area specific damage but can report that when the whole joint cartilage is gone, it does a phenomenal job of bringing it back.  Oddly, my research also indicates it does not convert into estrogen while in the joint which is a big benefit.  Bottom line, you have nothing to lose by trying it.

After going to Dunn for surgery and GH injections, I really did not have a protocol as I was in a brace for 8 months.  Afterwards I did some light lifting and stretching but it was only after getting on the steroid Nandrolone (see prior posts) and intense streching and lifting that I had real results.
Tell us how it goes.  I want to hear of other's success.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 05:21:02 PM by irentat »

Offline Ollieboy

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #282 on: June 28, 2011, 01:16:05 AM »
Thanks for the reply!

I've never heard about T-injections IA, but have to admit it sounds very intresting. Have to see if I can get my hands on some suspension as the enanthate I currently have in stock probably will just mess up the joint massively with irritation ;)

Regarding Deca, as far as I have understood it after speaking to one of the professors at my uni; nandrolone doesn't provide any direct repair to joints. However it is supposed to numb out a lot of the pain which allows rehab training on a whole new level.. Well, who knows?

I'm amazed that you didn't get a very specific rehab program while getting the iagh treatment! I would suppose half of the healing of the joint would be to restore normal muscular/nerve function.. That's how I see it from my point of view anyway! I guess it's pretty usual that orthopedics and doctors in general focus too much on the mechanics of the joint and as soon as it is restored the actual functionality of the joint is forgotten..

Back to my own story,
I have tried MGF and GHRP both IA and multiple micro injections around the injured areas.

Now 6 months after that I feel that something has happened, I definately experience more and stronger crepitations, but if that comes from cartilage growth or something else, I really can't tell..

I still have a long way to go either way.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 01:32:15 AM by Ollieboy »

Offline irentat

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #283 on: June 28, 2011, 06:18:00 PM »
Regarding Deca, and who knows...I know.  If you look at my prior post regarding this, directly reference a research article showing how Deca increases the strength of tendons.  Beyond all that, most comments I know of are anectdotal and do not adhere to a strict protocol to evaluate results.  For me, the results were permanent after getting off of Deca.  Overall, your professor is looking at it too simply by referencing "numbing". 

GH inducing peptides are meant to activate the pituitary only so see no benefit by doing area shots.  I use them for overall body GH generation (specifically for collagen synthesis).  MGF, I think would be helpful and have even thought of IGF peptides for IA myself but testosterone is just giving me too much success right now to deviate from my protocol.

As a reference, I use joint pain and articluation as a reference but multiple MRI's show consistent growth of cartilage.  Going from not being able to walk to all out sprinting with no pain is a major improvement.

Offline Saverio

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Re: PRP injections are regenerating my knee cartilage & ligaments
« Reply #284 on: June 29, 2011, 12:32:33 PM »
Hi irentat,

Saverio here.  I have posted under stem cells (regenexx).  Got 2 (1 in each knee) procedures back in 2008.  Doing very well compared to where I was, but not 100% back.  Your posts are interesting. The 'T' injections peaked my curiosity.  Is it available to anyone or only thru Drs.  Maybe you can inform us?

Saverio