Would appreciate comments on massage therapy

[heather rae]

 
I have recently started massage therapy for multiple reasons and the downward spiral of things that can happen when you break your patella. My first session was a little painful, and was adjusted to my comfort level. The leg muscles felt pretty good when I left, but the knee still hurt. I have scar tissue, tendonitis, muscle atrophy, maltracking, articular cartilage damage, residual firm swelling around the knee,chronic pain, and an IT band that's so tight when stretched it feels it make break.
 
I was wondering if anyone has experienced any long term relief and/or avoided additional surgery with use of massage therapy or other means of alternative medicine. Pain meds. don't cut it so, I am going this route. I'm still in PT and am receiving treatments there, but there are limitations in what they can offer. Any comments/suggestions?

Heather

[queeny]

I wrote a very long answer to this but I just lost it. Im a firm believer in complementary therapies and have had extensive massage therapy but not for anything as serious as your problem. Massage wouldnt cure all of your problems, but it would certainly help with the scar tissue, swelling and tight IT band.

If you had all the money to throw at this, I would have a number of approaches. I would continue with the physio in order to build up your VMO and get on top of the maltracking issues. I would have the massage therapy to deal with the scar tissue, swelling and tight IT band. On top of that, I would have bowen treatments. Bowen is a way of stimulating the body to heal itself. It is a very gentle technique, so much so that it appears as though they aren't actually doing anything. Then on top of that, I would see a homeopathic doctor and take the prescribed homeopathic remedies. I'd also take cod liver oil and a joint supplement. If after all that, you still need something for the pain, I'd recommend acupuncture from an acupuncturist (as opposed to a physio who does some acupuncture).

The bowen stimulates the body to heal itself and the homeopathic remedies assist in that healing. If you want more details about bowen just let me know.

Actually, thinking about it, that almost is my approach to MY issues. Im currently doing physio, having bowen treatments and taking homeopathic remedies  .

I have a history of patella maltracking. I'd been signed off from the physio for 3 weeks when I injured my knee and sustained a ruptured ACL, stretched LCL, bone bruising and tears to both menisci. As soon as I got injured, I started having weekly bowen. Immediately after the injury I could move my knee from 10 degrees extension to 30 degrees flexion, yet by the time I saw the physio 10 days later, she thought there was nothing serious wrong with my knee and I had ROM from -10 to 120. By the time she read my MRI, 3 weeks post injury, I had full ROM. When she read it, she ushered me out the door telling me to use crutches if necessary and said there was nothing more she could do until I had surgery.

Now Ive had my ACL reconstructed and a partial menisectomy and Ive been taking homeopathic remedies since, with my bowen sessions to restart asap. Im 6 days post op and I have ROM from -10 to 115 which I understand is pretty exceptional. Despite having a hamstrings graft, I was able to do hamstrings curls just 2 days post op. I have pretty much no bruising whatsoever.

Obviously, in my case, complementary therapies couldnt magically regrow my ACL, but the are an inportant part of my recovery. I also used the bowen therapy to deal with the other things that happened as a result of my knee. I put my lower back out from the limping, my upper back went from the crutches etc.

I have a horse and look after a few others, and complementary therapies are fascinating with them as there is no placebo effect. The results you get with horses are even more dramatic than with people.

It's important to remember that there is good and bad in every profession and a good place to start when finding a practitioner is the association registers, and from there use word of mouth.

Sorry for the essay in the end, I hope some of what I have written might help

[heather rae]

Queeny:

Thanks for your response. I believe the massage therapist I'm going to be seeing offers bowen technique. I'll ask her. Glad to see it helped out with your injuries. Just needed some reassurance from people that have had positive results. My OS is currently clueless as to what more he can do to help. So, I've taken the upper hand in what I need to do. He's mentioned a procedure (I'm assuming it's OATS) to repair the articular cartilage damage but, says he doesn't do it. I've also researched Regennex. Not sure if I should or shouldn't do anything because he didn't refer me or say this needs to be fixed. He also feels that if he attempted to do scar tissue debridement, I would bleed out too much, thus increasing the scar tissue.

I tried a glucosamine compound which contained chondroitin, omega 3 fatty acids, hyaluonic acid ,and MSM for months. I can't say it really helped me. It has taken one year for my flexion to go from nearly 0 to 130. I've worked my tail off in PT and still going. 

My auto insurance is covering my injury primarily and does offer alternative mecidine coverage with an order from the OS, but I don't think they would approve switching or adding a homeopathic doc. Do you know of any homeopathic remedies that may help?

At this point, I am undecided in getting a 2nd opinion about whether or not additional surgery should be done. If so, I'll have to wait to go back to work, as I won't be able to take any time off. I'm in a career crisis. I also would like to be as strong as possible before any additional procedures to hopefully recoup quicker. Who knows, maybe alternative medicine will help me feel good enough to forget doing anything else.

Do you ride your horses? Or have pain when riding? I sold mine about 6 months ago. Not sure that was the best thing to do, but it's done. I agree that pet therapy can be useful. Spending time with my dogs has a calming effect.

Thanks:  Heather

[queeny]

I'd like to point out that Im not a homeopathic doctor, but homeopathic remedies wont harm you in any way.

For you, I'd try arnica, rhus tox, ruta grav, ledum palustre, apis melifica. Take one of each, 3 times a day. I'm currently taking the first 3 myself.

Horses can be great therapy. I have a difficult mare and I have now sent her off to stud. I must have got my dates wrong with her season, but the vet came out and scanned. She has an egg getting ready to go in her ovaries (dont know if you know much about breeding, but it's called a corpus luteum) and so the vet has given her a PG injection to bring her into season in the next 3-5 days. I cant wait to get her home now 

I hadnt ridden since I injured my knee on 10th May, but the weekend before my reconstruction surgery, I decided to get on another (safer) horse on the yard as it was going to be my last chance for a while. It was much harder on my knee than I expected. I rode without stirrups, in walk, but it was hard. In a way it was a worthwhile exercise as Im in no rush to get back on.

If you dont feel up to riding, what about getting a driving horse? or a little in-hand show pony?

[heather rae]

Queeny:

Thanks for the suggested remedies. I'm wondering if a health food/supply store would carry them. If not, they could assist me in tracking them down. I've not heard of any of them. I used kava kava and valerian root to help me sleep when I was in college. That's about all. The massage therapist also recommends that I restart the glucosamine compound, even if I didn't have pain relief the first time around. Speaking of, whew! she REALLY worked the IT band today. Quite painful, it was bizarre how she worked it out like putty. I'll be sore tomorrow. I think it's better to do massage back to back with PT. My muscles took the beating of PT with less pain and more stamina today.

I've always been convinced that May 10th was a bad omen day, if you believe in that. My injury was that day, too. I also went unto preterm labor/hemmorhage with my son a long time ago on that day. Fortunately, I survived both days.

I had a Tennessee walker mare who was difficult at times, too. She hated water for whatever reason, even baths. She was, although,the best riding horse I've ever been on and the most comfortable. She just trotted around/over puddles. I hope yours comes back successfully mated. What breed of horses do you have? I am familiar with the corpus lutuem. Cyst formations in them can double you over. Pregnancy can also calm a horse down, can't it? I had thought about breeding Cleo before I sold her. I haven't ridden since my injury, either. I really miss it. I would be o.k. to just sit side-saddle and have someone lead the horse. My kids have been asking for a small pony so, that may be something we can do. What good is a farm without animals, right? One of friends just lost her horse basically to old age. Dolly was 35 and had 18 babies during her lifetime.

I'll let you know if I find those remedies. I hope they continue to help you hopefully without side effects. Modern medicine just doesn't work for me and I end up vomiting/nauseated, rashes, etc. etc. Thanks for your help.

Heather

[queeny]

That's interesting what you say about 10th May. I'd never thought about it, but it's definitely not a good day for you.

I think it would be good for you to have horses back in your life. 18 babies is extraordinary! If you are able to do the day to day care, and have the land, what about getting some oldies, retired horses and giving them a home. Often with the old ones you can ride them from time to time and they love it but there's no pressure to have them fit. I love my dearly, despite all the trouble she gives me. She's only a pony, what we call over here just a coloured cob. I dont know what her breeding is, but she's gone to a small thoroughbred to make babies.



If you google "homeopathic remedies" you should be able to order them online. I know ainsworths do international delivery, but I dont know how much it would cost from over here. Their remedy finder is probably something worth you doing though.

http://www.ainsworths.com/site/default.aspx

[heather rae]

Queeny:

Hey! How sore should I be the day after massage therapy? My first session wasn't as deep, but after the 2nd, I can't even touch my outer thigh! Then, I went to PT, who does stretching, too.WOW! Maybe the homeopathic remedies would help that problem. How many times a week do you go? She wants me to come before each PT session, which is 3x/week. I think that's something I'll need to work up to. I think it's strange how my auto insurance will cover certain alternative medicine specialists, but not others. I will definitely check the website. Thanks. I do believe the Bowen technique would be better. This particular therapist is working on scar tissue and tightened muscles like a myofascial release, I suppose.

You mentioned that you had patella maltracking, too. Did you ever wear a brace to stabilize it? Mine still subluxates with the brace on when I get past about 90 degrees flexion. The PT says it fits correctly, so I just end up using the heel of my hand to push it back in, then you feel a dull pop. I really hope that strengthening the muscles improve that. I was finally brave enough to read my OP report which stated that the medial retinaculum had to be opened to reveal the many, many bone fragments and then tightly sutured back together. UGH!

The fact that you only lost about 5 degrees of flexion and none of the extension with this surgery is exceptional! Have your homeopathic meds eliminated the need for narcotics for pain, too? You should be moving along well soon. Hamstring curls are hard, good for you. I am officially up to lifting about 12 lbs. My back hurts from limping, too. Have you tried warm epson salt soaks or hot packs? It helps.

Your pony is beautiful! Love the markings. She's what we call a painted pony here. She looks like she'd only measure about 12 hands or so. I think an older,broken in horse could be easily handled by my kids, too. Do you do any equestrian events? I really do miss riding! I hope you get babies. Let me know.

Heather

[queeny]

If you are finding yourself too sore after massage then do tell your therapist and ask if she can not go so deep. The homeopathic remedies probably would help with that, even just arnica would be good.

Im still doing really well. I went down the stables today and overdid it a bit so my knee is swollen up again, but it's not too painful. I have still needed painkillers with the homeopathic stuff, but my healing has been phenomenal. I didnt even have any bruising except where my shin was clamped and another small bit at the back of the knee where they pulled the graft through.

It sounds quite nasty having all those bits floating about your knee. My maltracking problems were never that bad, but getting my VMO strong and firing has had a fantastic impact on that. Ive not tried a brace. Have you tried taping instead, Ive heard that often gets better results. Taping immediately made my knee feel better.

My bowen therapist also suggested epsom salts soaks for my back but I havent tried it yet. I cant wait to get to the gym next week. Next week I can officially start cycling and going on the stepper and get in a pool too. Before my injury, I was swimming 3 times a week. It's been nice not having chlorine smelling hair, but I have missed it.

My pony is about 14 hands. I do trail rides and dressage with her, but Ive spent the last 3 years trying to sort her out. She had been badly screwed up by whoever owned her before me and has lots of issues, but we have slowly overcome them. She should be coming into season tomorrow so Im really hopeful that she'll be covered within the next few days.

Im going to have my first bowen treatment since the op on monday, and Im really looking forward to it. Im not sure what she'll be able to do with the incisions and everything, but I think I'll get her to work on my lower back again as it has been aching a bit recently. I'll be having it weekly again from now on.

My PT doesnt want to see me very much, as Ive done PT a few times, so I know what I have to do. Ive also done a lot of pilates so Im aware about doing the exercises correctly and she knows that I'll just get on with it. Im seeing her again on friday.

Do discuss bowen with your therapist. You would probably have to leave a couple of days between the bowen and a PT session though, so Im not sure how it would work.

[heather rae]

Queeny:

Believe it or not but, I am still sore from massage on Thurs. and it is Sat.! I have a feeling that I'll only be able to handle this about once per week. Maybe she has to go deep to target the scar tissue. Arnica would probably help the PT pain, too. Hope Bowen goes well for you and glad you are doing good. I think the earlier you get after the scar tissue, the better. I was still required to do massages around the knee while sutures and steristrips were in place. Hope you're icing, right? Massaging the back muscles will probably help. I've asked for hot compresses for my back at PT when they put one on the knee. It works wonders!

Before I received the J-brace for maltracking, the PT was taping the knee. I found it uncomfortable and it irritated the skin. Actually, the brace has a biomechanical function and supports the knee all the way around. It compresses that swollen, boggy pre-patellar area which pushes down and causes pain at the base. So, it does help some. Neither can grab hold deep enough to keep the patella in the grove. I hope my VMO gets very strong, too. I would not want a lateral release.

You're not going to believe this! The only bruising I ever experienced with anything was when I had the MUA and had a little behind the knee. It swelled larger than the average human head when I was injured and 150cc's of blood was aspirated during surgery. How phenonemal is that? You would think we both would have been bruised from the thigh to the ankle.

I love swimming, too. I had PT for a long time mostly in the pool. I had a bromine (pool chemical) reaction about 2 months ago and had to go to all land-based exercises. Thus, I now have alot more pain with PT. I was done quite well with aquatic because the water takes the stress off the joint. Now, pain is a big issue. I think you will love it. I actually had a chance to get in the water at the lake today. I took advantage of it and ditched my usual home program to do some water exercises. I over did it, but that's o.k. I grabbed a kickboard and made that leg move! We have plenty of ice for tonight!

Riding and caring for your horse again is something to keep you motivated to get better. That's a very good goal! Horses' behavior is a reflection of how they are treated and sometimes inexperienced people don't really know how to treat them. Glad you were able to give her the TLC she deserves. You deserve her!

Heather

[eaglemom]

I'm going to jump in here as I'm trying / doing massage therapy for my knee / leg also.  Yes it does feel sore for several days - sometimes worse than it did prior to going for the massage.  One thing you might try is white vinegar - fill a small sink with very warm water and dump in a good amount of white vinegar.  Put a wash cloth in and wring it out and put that over the sorest area for several minutes.  Do that several times.  Or you can fill the bath tub and use more vinegar and sit in there.  I can't get in and out of the tub so I use the sink.  I don't know what or why but the vinegar seems to "draw" out part of the stiffness / pain.  Good luck.  Eagle

[heather rae]

Eagle:

Hi! thanks I will try that. I usually end up taking a hot bath after PT. I've tried adding epsom salts, but it didn't make a difference. If vinegar is the ticket, then I'm in. The massage therapist went really deep around the IT band insertion. Still tender on day 4, now. Don't know which one is worse, PT or massage! How many times a week do you have treatment? Think I will try this treatment today before PT gets their "claws" into it.

Thanks: Heather

[queeny]

I too have used vinegar, but I used cider vinegar. It does work really well and you can leave it on for longer than ice.

4 days is a long time to be sore, I do think you should mention it to her. Does your PT offer ultrasound? have you tried it?

It's such a shame about the pool chemicals. It really is one thing after another isnt it.

I've heard from the stud and Rosie has now been covered so I'm pleased 

[heather rae]

Queeny:

Just spoke with PT, and I guess I get to play hooky today. He said the massage therapist should never be doing deep techniques around the IT band insertion. He feels that the scar tissue is mostly around and under the patella. Feels like she bruised me. She also doesn't do Bowen so, I think I'm going elsewhere. How do you know who to trust? Hope you feel better after your treatment today. How's your back? A chiropractor may be able to help that, too.

I have asked about the ultrasound, but for some reason, he doesn't think it will help. Did you try it? He says ice massage is ultimately better because it goes deeper into the knee. On the average, it gives me about 2 hours so, that's pretty good. Sometimes the knee gets hot again so, I ice again. How about frozen vinegar cubes? 

At least it's summer now YES! I had to miss swimming last year so, I am taking full advantage this year. I plan to ditch my boring HEP and do the exercises in the water as much as I can. If I could become a dolphin, I'd swim away.Thinking about getting some 2 lb. ankle weights for added resistance. Hope you can get going with it soon, too.

Going to the health food store to ask for Arnica today. Restarted the glucosamine compound, too. Even if I don't have pain relief, it should keep further inflammation down. I'm very happy for you about Rosie! Not sure where you live. Will it be warm there when she delivers?

Heather

[queeny]

I did wonder about still having pain 4 days on. If it's under the patella I can understand why he doesnt think it will help.

Maybe try soaking a cloth in vinegar then wringing it out and wrapping some ice cubes in the vinegar cloths. I think that would be a good idea. Could you get a cryo-cuff at all? I love mine, but I did have to pay £100 for it.

I do think arnica and bowen would be good for you. Hopefully you can find a good practitioner. It is a mindfield when it comes to finding a good one, but for bowen try a register of practitioners so that you know they are definitely qualified, and then when you find one close, ask around if anyone has any experiences and try googling their names. There's one register here http://www.bowendirectory.com/

Im glad you have access to water now  , hopefully you'll see some progress.

Im in the UK, near London, so it should be about as warm as it gets in the uk when she delivers.

[heather rae]

Queeny:

You have the best connections. There is a bowen massage therapist 15 min. from my house. Does it get rid of scar tissue? Did you get to go today? I also checked out ainsworth and followed the prompts. Amazing! It was like an online pharmacy. It highly recommended Bryonica. Some of the other meds. you mentioned came up, too. The prices weren't bad. Does the package insert give the possible side effects and what meds. you can/can't take with it? Or which foods to avoid?
 
Both websites had options for animals. How Funny! Did you ever buy anything for Rosie? My cat is shedding like crazy right now. I was using Shed X which is mostly vitamins, but my sofa still gets covered! All that vacuuming is really hard. I wonder if ainsworth has something better.

My PT was pretty upset about the continued pain. He's been focusing very hard to avoid inflammation and scar tissue. He said I definitely don't need anything right now that's going to hinder my progress. I wish I had a cryo-cuff. I sometimes (accidently) fall asleep at night with frozen gel packs on and the condensation gets everything wet. I'll try vinegar soaks & ice tonight. I had to go buy some. Let you know if it works. Hope you're still making good progress and healing well. Making sure you get plenty of protein, Vit D, calcuim, etc. I shocked the OS when all the fragments healed together. I just told him it was my healing supportive diet.

Heather