Regenexx injections - Stem Cells

[jonhark]

James Buddy--Being from Australia, I wouldn't expect you to have the facts straight about free speech in America. Death to America? Bring back the Slaves? Would never advocate either in the best country the world has ever seen, or will ever, for that matter. What I do advocate is the following: When someone on this forum is an obvious imposter and liar (not naming names), they should be harshly rebuked and exposed for their fraudulent statements.  This should be a community of knee patients and not a forum for marketing and advertising of modern day snake oil.  I wish you luck with your Regennex injections, but think your money would be better spent on a lifetimes supply of Foster's.

[Lottiefox]

Thank you Knee Guru for once again trying to bring some balance to the situation. 

I have been pretty disgusted by the blatant bullying of Scooter on a previous thread, and whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, of Regenexx, Fosters or whether the world is flat, then bullying someone who has a different view and launching personal attacks as was done before just isn't helpful. To anyone.

Many many medical techniques cause controversy or scepticism. Indeed, a large scale research study showed that "proper medical intervention" aka an arthrscopy to wash out and clean up arthritic knees was no better than a sham scope blindly given to a control group. Has there ben a revolution against scopes for cleaning out knees? No. They are still widely practiced. So, Regenexx courts controversy - it doesn't appeal to everyone. Neither does microfracture, or many other attempts to repair cartilage. If an individual wants to try something that is their right.

James - good luck with your search. I would email Dr Centeno and ask if he knows of anything in Australia. There is a stem cell company in Australia - Mesoblast I think, but I am not sure if they are doing similar work or ACI work supplemented by stem cells. I have seen three OSs here in the UK. The most pioneering one is currently using stem cells in combination with a collagen paste to create a cartilage fix. (Cartifill). He strongly believes that work such as Regenexx is the future, and has similar results but so far only on sheep. I have seen that data for myself. Unfortunately, not being a sheep we cannot access similar here in the UK.....yet.

Good luck,

Lottie

[markld]

Harsh speech not being conductive to a free society and freedom of speech are two totally different things pal.
In America, freedom of speech is just that "freedom of speech". What part of it don't you understand? If one wanted to, they could and would be free to stand on a street corner and shout "death to America" and there isn't a thing anyone could do within the law to stop them from doing such.
I wouldn't agree with them saying that, however they have a "RIGHT" to do that if they choose so. Obviously you don't have a good comprehension of the U.S constitution.

 Look at the most recent cases decided by the US Supreme court, ie; Snyder v.s. Westboro Baptist Church. The ruling from the supreme court was 8-1 siding with Westboro Baptist Church. If that isn't harsh speech that the court is condoning then I don't know what is.....

You obviously don't know the difference between ones rights under the constitution pertaining to freedom of speech and being socially indecorous......

[The KNEEguru]

 

[jonhark]

Oops, I apologize for my last post to James. What I meant to write was: Injecting Foster's into the knee has a better chance of producing cartilage than stem cells. It is a helluva lot cheaper as well.

[jamesofsuburbia]

Thanks for the advice fellas, you have obviously missed my most salient point, that this board is fortunately not free to the kind of hateful speech the Westboro Church engages in! And I will try out that foster's as soon as it's published in a peer reviewed journal If it worked it would be a money saver. If you are unsure about the ability of stem cells to produce cartilage I recommend you access some scientific journals and scour them thoroughly, you will be pleasantly surprised at the success had so far.

Lottiefox - You are correct in saying Mesoblast is conducting trials in Australia, but at the moment they are using allogenic cells, and from what I can find are treating those with a recent ACL reconstruction and injecting generally into the knee, not in the more directed fashion Dr Centeno does.

I will look into Cartifill, did you read the paper I mentioned in my previous post? They are doing something similar to what you described, using cells contained within self arranging peptide amphiphiles which provide a nano scaled surface to the subchondral surface. The results they have had are just fantastic, the histology of the cartilage which has been repaired is almost indistinguishable from healthy cartilage. Although just like your lucky sheep, they have done it on rabbits. I am not so keen on allogenic, I would prefer an autogenic transfer, that is one of the concerns I have with the Australian trials. I have emailed a doctor I found here who is conducting one of the trials, and will find out exactly what they are doing.

Do you know of any research papers which describe the cartifill process? I will try my own searches now, thanks for your help.

[Kaputt_Knee]

jamesofsuburbia nice one! 

[jamesofsuburbia]

Thanks Kaputt! I am starting to suspect there is a representation of the religious right on this board? anti stem cells, pro Westboro? hmmm...I could be totally wrong, but perhaps not.

Back to more relevant matters, I have heard back from a promising trial in Australia but I am ineligible for the treatment they are conducting. Upon consultation with another surgeon with whom I am happy I am going in for a patellar ACL reconstruction and microfracture this week.

I wish everyone all the best with their knees, my best advice is do your research! Cheers and wish me luck.

[jonhark]

It is painfully obvious from your post that you haven't DONE YOUR RESEARCH. Are you aware subsequent MACI after microfracture has a 5 X greater chance of failure? Why would you opt for a surgery which damages the subchondral bone for a MAYBE 50% chance of growing fibrocartilage? Why blindly inject stem cells into a defect when you can have a chondrocyte surgically glued or implanted into the defect? How does that stem cell know how to become a chondroctye and create a cartilage matrix? The dumbest thing you can do at your age is to get a microfracture. The second dumbest thing is to believe in a pipe dream fantasy that stem cells (in the current surgeries offered) are ever going to give you a long-term solution. 

Why would an advocate of free speech be considered part of the religious right? Seems you might be mixing up politics in two distinctively different countries. By the way, you don't seem a bit like most Australians I've met. You sure you aren't a KIWI?

[Scooter72]

How does that stem cell know how to become a chondroctye and create a cartilage matrix? The dumbest thing you can do at your age is to get a microfracture. The second dumbest thing is to believe in a pipe dream fantasy that stem cells (in the current surgeries offered) are ever going to give you a long-term solution. 

To all that are viewing this thread.. know that jon asks questions that are easily answered with a little research.  I would point out the other threads where trolling by jon and his friend, mark, have mindlessly (<-- emphasis) attacked any reasonable attempt at scientific discourse concerning similar topics.  Nevertheless, these are decent questions, that I don't mind shedding light on.  Prolo and MSC therapy go together because, in short, the prolo intiates an inflammatory response that allows for a better healing response.  The MSCs are "told" to differentiate into the proper collagen cells via certain types of cytokine signaling pathways.  I will quote from the following website which is one of many that can help explain (http://wehelpwhathurts.homestead.com/prolotherapy.html):

"Repair is the process by which lost or destroyed cells are replaced by new, living cells. The tissue defect is initially filled up with highly vascularized connective tissue called granulation tissue. It consists of newly formed small blood cells embedded in loose ground substance containing fibroblasts and inflammatory cells. Fibroblasts migrate into the wound bed under the influence of chemotactic factor (11,12).

As granulation tissue matures, inflammatory cells decrease in number, fibroblasts lay down collagen, and the capillaries become less prominent. A relatively acellular, avascular tissue with inactive spindle-shaped fibroblasts tucked in between collagen fibers emerges. The collagen fibers then aggregate into mature fibrils. The acquisition of tensile strength follows a sigmoid curve (12). The orderly movement and proliferation of cells within a healing wound is influenced by both cell signals and extracellular matrix (e.g., fibronectin and growth-stimulating factors). Thus, a wound-healing cascade is present. The growth associated with repair is regulated and ceases when healing is completed (12).

Proliferants are substances that cause a localized tissue reaction leading to an inflammatory response. The wound - healing cascade is thus triggered resulting in fibroplasia and collagen deposition. The healing cascade begins with granulocyte infiltration followed by monocyte/macrophage invasion. Growth factors are released and thus activated fibroblasts are recruited to the site to secrete new matrix. This new matrix includes collagen fibrils (2,6,7,13). "

Now, with this information, I want you all to read the following abstract from a paper released recently (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21451545):
Tumor Necrosis Factor-α-Activated Human Adipose Tissue-Derived Mesenchymal Stem Cells Accelerate Cutaneous Wound Healing through Paracrine Mechanisms.
Heo SC, Jeon ES, Lee IH, Kim HS, Kim MB, Kim JH.

1] Medical Research Center for Ischemic Tissue Regeneration, The Medical Research Institute, School of Medicine, Pusan National University, Gyeongsangnam-do, Republic of Korea [2] Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Pusan National University, Gyeongsangnam-do, Republic of Korea.

Abstract
Human adipose tissue-derived mesenchymal stem cells (ASCs) stimulate regeneration of injured tissues by secretion of various cytokines and chemokines. Wound healing is mediated by multiple steps including inflammation, epithelialization, neoangiogenesis, and proliferation. To explore the paracrine functions of ASCs on regeneration of injured tissues, cells were treated with tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF-α), a key inflammatory cytokine, and the effects of TNF-α-conditioned medium (CM) on tissue regeneration were determined using a rat excisional wound model. We demonstrated that TNF-α CM accelerated wound closure, angiogenesis, proliferation, and infiltration of immune cells into the cutaneous wound in vivo. To assess the role of proinflammatory cytokines IL-6 and IL-8, which are included in TNF-α CM, IL-6 and IL-8 were depleted from TNF-α CM using immunoprecipitation. Depletion of IL-6 or IL-8 largely attenuated TNF-α CM-stimulated wound closure, angiogenesis, proliferation, and infiltration of immune cells. These results suggest that TNF-α-activated ASCs accelerate cutaneous wound healing through paracrine mechanisms involving IL-6 and IL-8.
Journal of Investigative Dermatology advance online publication, 31 March 2011; doi:10.1038/jid.2011.64.

The point here is that TNF-alpha, and interleukins 6&8, which are all upregulated and secreted as part of a general inflammatory response, actually accelerated tissue healing.  This is only one paper, and one example of the effect of a microenvironment including a multitude of cytokines that enhance MSC proliferation (towards the site of injury/inflammation) and repair.

[The KNEEguru]

It is a shame this thread continues being a sparring match instead of a discussion.

[jonhark]

prolotherapy is more witchcraft. I had it done on a loose shoulder about five years ago in the hopes of it tightening my ligaments. Low and behold, it had absolutely NO EFFECT. Guess what did work? Surgical Capsular Shift. Prolotherapy is a great concept in theory, but just doesn't seems to be more placebo effect than anything else. Anyways, this is my last attempt to persuade anyone about cartilage repair. Don't take my word for it or even Scooter's. Go and interview the top five cartilage repair physicians in the country. Who, by the way, are innnovativew and work with numerous different technologies and companies. You know what they will tell you? Chondroctyes are the building blocks of cartilage and there is no substitute for them in the knee....In fact, neo chondroctyes are showing HUGE promise in initiial studies. They won't mention or recommend stem cells yet as the technology is too infant and hasn't been perfected. Save your money folks and DEFINITELY don't choose a microfracture. It has a great chance of causing subchondral osteophytes and cysts and hijacking your future cartilage repairs.

[Scooter72]

Jon, you are either purposely, or unintentionally misdirecting.  Prolo on its own is not what is being recommended!  It is in conjunction with stem cell therapy, that the effectiveness becomes synergistic.  As I said in the previous post, the point is to create a microenvironment (i.e. inflammation) that will cause the MSCs to migrate and repair the injured site. 

Also, there seems to be a disconnect here between Jon's support for his opinion, and my own.  Jon is tellling us that " the top five cartilage repair physicians in the country" would demean prolo and/or stem cell therapy in it's current state.  Can someone please tell me who those top 5 might be, and in what interview/journal they said such a thing?  Furthermore, I would like to know what basic science research they might have?  How many stem cell therapy treatments have they given to patients, that are as sophisticated as what is done at Regenexx?  Keep in mind, folks, that these people actually SORT out a specific kind of stem cell, among many many different kinds of cells that are drawn; this isn't your typical bedside draw with simple concentrating and re-injection.

Another problem there is with Jon and Mark's opinions, is that they casually dismiss real people, who have put up video testimonies, and are easily found, that have had incredible success with the Regenexx treatment.   I'll give you all one example: JARVIS GREEN.  Go look him up.  He's a New England Patriot.

Another fact I'd like to highlight to everyone here: In general, MDs are simply not the foundation of innovative medical research, from which new modalities of treatment spring.  Yes, there are plenty of exceptions, and to a certain degree this is changing.  However, if you, the public, wants to know what is on the forefront of medical research, understand that it is the research techs, MSs., BSs and of course PhDs who do hardcore research in labs at academic institutions and corporations, that are discovering those modalities you will one days see in the clinic.  That's not a knock against MDs; it's simply the truth.  MDs can empirically/anecdotally make observations based on their years of experience, but they hardly have time to conduct basic science research.

So, the bottom line is that if you want to know what is going on with some area of interest with respect to a disease or treatment, go to pubmed.com and do a search. See what those who are building the foundation of knowledge from which the public benefits, are discovering. Don't go to people who are not researchers, and might not have the training to even understand why something new (e.g. MSC w/prolo) might work.   

[rob wilson]

Wow. I don't know a lot about the science or the politics. I only know that according to my MRI pre and post Regenexx (5 injections) that there was about 50% cartilage growth in my defect. As far as prolotherapy being withchraft I can only say it has been a God send for me and has enabled me to remain active. I have used it for many different body parts with fantastic results. It is a process not usually a 1 shot miracle.

[jonhark]

So Scoots, what is your kickback on each Regennex procedure referrred by Knee Guru. You are doing a helluva job representing something you've never experienced, yet......